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The Writer and The Law of Identity

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Our omnipotence explanation is based on Kevy Souza, but we also do not use the concept of omnipotence. It is there for the sake of completeness and curiousity, that is all.

And anybody who approaches the state of being of the Creator dissolves into oneness/nothingness. That sounds like Nirvana to me.
 
I completely agree with High 1-A for The Law of Identity. Let's take a look at Tier 0:

"Beings that are boundlessly above absolutely everything, including existence and nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism and non-dualism, the concepts of life and death, and their analogues at any level."

Not being omniscient already downgrades one from 0 to High 1-A. Our 0s are supposed to be omnipotent, and if they aren't omniscient, they sure as hell can't do everything.

Downgrade her.
 
Ant, get some rest if you are too tired. The discussion isn't going to be closed any time soon and discussing while you are tired is bad for you and adds less to the discussion compared to when you are rested
 
I would appreciate if you do not try to go lawyer on me. I am definitely not in the mood.

You are not stating a fact. We are still striving to use the exact same dimensional and beyond dimensional system as they do. If we take that away, we are left without any direction and coherence.
 
@Ant

I'm not going lawyer on you. We have the fallacies page for a reason. So people won't use them.

@Kep

That was just a random example.

"Not being omniscient already downgrades one from 0 to High 1-A. Our 0s are supposed to be omnipotent, and if they aren't omniscient, they sure as hell can't do everything."

We already agreed that Omniscience is not a requirement to Tier 0. Seriously. Look at all my posts above.
 
@Kaltias

I cannot rest. Then I will have to work for another 5-6 hours in a row when I wake up, and let Matthew undermine the structure of the wiki that I have spent around 11000 hours to build up.
 
>Undermine the structure.

For the love of God, Ant, can you stop me accusing of doing that? You are just trying to undermine my arguments without actually addressing them by exaggerating their implications to apocalyptic levels. Things would flow much, much better if you didn't do that.
 
Kepekley23 said:
Tier 0 is supposed to be omnipotence. Not being omniscient is one of the reasons why The Presence isn't Tier 0.
Click to expand...
Wrong. The PResence isn't Tier 0 because there are equal and higher beings. His Nigh-Omniscience has nothing to do with it.

Tier 0s are supposed to be qualitatively beyond everything else. Even the concept of knowledge is meaningless to them, and they can contradict themselves as Kevyn Souza argued for. A Tier 0 can have Variable or Unknown or Nigh-Omniscient intellect.
 
If you are trying to change our system from that of DarkLK to that of Kevyn Souza, then you are undermining it, not remotely to apocalyptic levels, but it is nevertheless dangerous.
 
Why are we bringing up Kevyn? His system is completely different than ours, and he is against dimensional tiering to begin with. It seems irrelevant.
 
I think you guys need to calm down a bit. Ant, I know you are overworked and you want to keep the wiki running smoothly, however, you got to trust your other staff members and their judgement as well. No one is trying to undermine the wiki's structure. Everyone is giving their opinions on what is correct for this sort of thing. No need to over-exaggerate things here. Just stay calm and be rational here.
 
@Matt

Pretty sure it is in the Discussion Rules, but nevermind.

You said yourself; they are supposed to be qualitatively beyond everything else. This implies omniscience and knowledge, since it falls under "everything else".

Is there an example of a Nigh-Omniscient Tier 0? Even Azathoth had to be pushed to omniscient to qualify...
 
I know my comment will likely be deleted and may even be inappropriate, but what about an At least High 1-A rating? That way, though it's likely she in fact is a tier 0, it's taking the safe option and making sure all bases are covered.
 
The Writer is Tier 0 despite not being Omniscient. So is LOI. Azathoth being called Omniscient is frankly incorrect. It's above the concept entirely.
 
But is it stated that she *can't* know? Even if she is beyond the concept of knowledge, if it is clearly stated that she *can't* know things, that means she is tied to that concept on at least some metaphysical level, right?
 
@Kep

Tier 0s are not omnipotent. At least not in the "can do everything possible and impossible" sense.

None of our tier 0s is omnipotent using said definition. There is a reason if the "questionable" is a part of the tier

@Ant

You should. You can't properly analyze this if you are tired. No one is going to make such a revision until everyone involved has reached an agreement anyway, so you don't need to keep commenting now, you can comment later. But do as you prefer
 
Gentleman, let's not continue to go in circles. Obviously the ACF staff are the most knowledgeable about the tier system yet Kevyn Souza and Ventus are just as knowledgeable (they've proven so many times) about omnipotence. Meaning this is a debate between them, yet Kevyn and Ven aren't around so arguing about this at this point is meaningless.

Also, we are our own wiki, if we ultimately decide TLOI can be Tier 0 then who's right is it to stop us? We wouldn't do the same for the myriads of things OBD disagrees with us about?

Again, I'm fine with the downgrade just not the logic behind it. To dismiss Kevyn and Ven as just "nonsense" without properly explaining why is just wrong. I know we're all tired but at least specify as such.
 
@Kal

They are supposed to be omnipotent in the context of our wiki. That's why being infinitely above a High 1-A doesn't make you any closer to Tier 0 than it'd a 11-C, you have to be literally limitless.
 
@Sewa

The problem is, Kevyn's system differs from ours by a long shot. Tier 0 doesn't even exist in his wiki. Using his system to make an argument for ours is silly.
 
@Kep

Yeah, boundless toward all known concepts and caveats, with a High 1-A being limited if only due to hierarchy and or a small limitation that prevents them from being above all of the verse's concepts and parameters. But isn't *true* omnipotence unprovable? Otherwise, paraconsistency might be violated. I always saw High 1-A and 0 as merely the top of a hierarchy, with 1-A already being well beyond all known logic (if not necessarily physics; it's unknown where that line might be drawn)

(Edit: Kevyn has a wiki with a tiering system?)
 
@Kepe

Not quite. Kevyn's logic is clearly on our omnipotence page and Ven's own is separate from even that.

I mean come on...

The Identity said "not even I know". So what??

Kami Tenchi said "I forgot" and still is ranked as Tier 0 and omniscient.

Ven does not see them as differently.

The ONLY reason why TLOI is not Tier 0 on ACF is because she's not a true omnipotent archetype. She's not Ein Sof or Parabrahman, she's more like (in DarkLK's own words) "Featherine's sister".
 
Well, I am definitely not going to allow that we switch systems. If the omnipotence page is going to be used as leverage for doing so, rather than a matter of personal curiousity, even though we do not use the term, then I would rather that we remove it altogether.

Also, I have extremely high respect for DarkLK, and the wiki would be a pale shadow of its current standards without his system, so I would appreciate if everybody treat him accordingly.

Anyway, yes, I am far too exhausted to handle two discussions like this in a single day, when I have enormous amounts of other work to do simultaneously.
 
Kami Tenchi had limited knowledge from mortal perspective in a casual conversation, whereas the LOI seriously stated that it has a limitation from its own perspective.
 
Well, I am definitely not going to allow that we switch systems. If the omnipotence page is going to be used as leverage for doing so, rather than a matter of personal curiousity, even though we do not use the term, then I would rather that we remove it altogether.

Disagree. It is too good to delete like this, and this wouldn't be the first time we let a page exist just as an example, anyway.
 
I am fine with keeping it for information, just not that it is used as leverage to switch systems.
 
@Ant

Kami Tenchi literally appears for like 2 minutes of screen time and has no evidence to either be Omniscient or Omnipresent. It is pure speculation. It is very biased to let him slide if such a big dea is made of it.

Also, are you honestly wanting to delete a page simply because it goes against DarkLK? Really? That's one of the worst reasons I ever heard. Again, you need to discuss with arguments not authorities.
 
@Sera

Kevyn designed a lot of the stuff we use, alright. But LP generally has a different idea about how to do things.

I mean, I respect whatever we choice make, but our system is not similar to the LP's.
 
No, I am saying that the page is fine to keep as a philosophical explanation of a concept that we do not use, but not to impose it to replace our conventions.
 
If a small self-stated limitation qualifies one for 0, why have High 1-A have that parameter?
 
No, DarkLK had no qualms with Kevyn's revision (implemented by Ryukama). It's not that we want to change the system, it's just that for all that. TOAA wouldn't be Tier 0 either as he told Peter Parker he didn't "know" something.
 
We are not talking about Kevyn's Liber-Proellis wiki. We are talking about his Omnipotence page. Which is what we go by on.
 
I really wish Ven or Kevyn could reply. I'm doing my best to relay what they intended (surely not to dismantle the system).
 
People were mentioning Kevyn's wiki, so.

Anyway, deleting the page is a huge no-no. It is far better than the previous draft, and it is still very informative no matter how you look at it.
 
I can call Kevyn here if you want. We were chatting, like, three minutes ago about Universal Dante being BS.
 
Also, how the heck am I supposed to be able to spend lots of time defending this system, when I am constantly busy monitoring that there is no vandalism in the background for 13 hours in a row, whereas you focus your entire energy to constantly argue, and currently make my life difficult?

It is important to know when another person has greater knowledge about a subject than oneself, and I have had 3.5 years of collaboration with DarkLK, that has taught me that he genuinely knows what he is talking about, even if his English skills are somewhat limited.

Anyway, my apologies about being grouchy due to being exhausted, but this tiering system works very well for this wiki, and I am very worried about attempts to undermine it.
 
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