The whiteroom's masterpiece VS The god of generation 0 (Remake)

[azontr]

The characters who are being used in this match, Who else?

Koji is 9-C (atm) and Daniel is 9-A

Your wording confused me; I thought you meant a character within Lookism had 9-C AP and harmed a 9-A character with knives.

Anyways, the points still stand. No amount of piercing will let you bypass an AP gap that's over 68,000 times. The fact that Lookism characters have been damaged by piercing weapons merely means that their piercing weapons are also scaling to the characters AP— if a 9-A character wields a knife, we wouldn't list them as "9-A, but 9-C with a knife", because that's just not how that works.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Your wording confused me; I thought you meant a character within Lookism had 9-C AP and harmed a 9-A character with knives.

Anyways, the points still stand. No amount of piercing will let you bypass an AP gap that's over 68,000 times. The fact that Lookism characters have been damaged by piercing weapons merely means that their piercing weapons are also scaling to the characters AP— if a 9-A character wields a knife, we wouldn't list them as "9-A, but 9-C with a knife", because that's just not how that works.

That's not how it works

The weapons don't scale to AP, Lookism weapons are very much so equal to the ones IRL, As they are by no means different nor were they modified

What you guys are saying is legit the equivelant of this which is simply outrageous

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Also this;

Consider a punch which is thrown a force of 10 N at an area of 50 cm2 = 0.01 m2.Now, consider a knife attack done with 0.01 mm2 = 1e-8 m2.If a 10 N force is done on something of 0.01 m2, consider that at 10 N on 1e-8 m2 as well. Now, if this 10 N force were to work on 1e-8 specifically, it would be 1e+9 N, which is like 1 billion Newton instead of the earlier 10 N. It's just that the area affected will be lower, but the effective force will be higher. That's literally piercing damage.

 

[Tomfer]

"In a 9-A verse, if a knife can harm a 9-A character, then that knife is 9-A" which is complete and utterly false considering said weapons were not modified nor was it verse exclusive weapons

You're saying that street level characters who are 9-B or above should be downgraded because they are harmed by normal and conventional weapons on a daily basis? Spider-man is harmed by weapons and blades all of the time, so he should be 9-C by your logic? Characters that fought Sonic from OPM should be downgraded since he uses a normal katana? Characters from Naruto should be downgraded to 9-C because they were harmed by normal Kunais? Piercing damage isn't durability negation.

This is flawed, there's nothing wrong with weapons scaling with the user's AP, that's how this forum accepts it, it's not utterly false.

 

[azontr]

Also this;

Consider a punch which is thrown a force of 10 N at an area of 50 cm2 = 0.01 m2.Now, consider a knife attack done with 0.01 mm2 = 1e-8 m2.If a 10 N force is done on something of 0.01 m2, consider that at 10 N on 1e-8 m2 as well. Now, if this 10 N force were to work on 1e-8 specifically, it would be 1e+9 N, which is like 1 billion Newton instead of the earlier 10 N. It's just that the area affected will be lower, but the effective force will be higher. That's literally piercing damage.

Everybody knows that piercing attacks do more damage than blunt attacks. The concept of piercing damage is something I'm aware of.

You just have a fundamental misunderstanding of how this site treats weapon scaling, which isn't an issue of mine or anyone's argument. You believe these characters are wielding weapons that scale magnitudes below their AP— this is not the case. By your logic, a swordsman on this wiki who scales to, hypothetically tier 8 would be wielding tier 9 swords because his swords are just well-forged and not supernaturally modified.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

You're saying that street level characters who are 9-B or above should be downgraded because they are harmed by normal and conventional weapons on a daily basis? Spider-man is harmed by weapons and blades all of the time, so he should be 9-C by your logic? Characters that fought Sonic from OPM should be downgraded since he uses a normal katana? Characters from Naruto should be downgraded to 9-C because they were harmed by normal Kunais? Piercing damage isn't durability negation.

This is flawed, there's nothing wrong with weapons scaling with the user's AP, that's how this forum accepts it, it's not utterly false.

You are outright saying their body is made of metal which they aren't

They are normal humans they have normal skin, Their organs are 10-C

Their eyes, Throat and groin are not 9-A

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Everybody knows that piercing attacks do more damage than blunt attacks. The concept of piercing damage is something I'm aware of.

You just have a fundamental misunderstanding of how this site treats weapon scaling, which isn't an issue of mine or anyone's argument. You believe these characters are wielding weapons that scale magnitudes below their AP— this is not the case. By your logic, a swordsman on this wiki who scales to, hypothetically tier 8 would be wielding tier 9 swords because his swords are just well-forged and not supernaturally modified.

I will say this again, You guys are legit saying if Koji were to pierce his eyes, The knife would break

Eyes being 10-C as they have no protection from bones, Muscles or anything

The same can be said to the groin, It is 10-C as they are not protected by muscles, ribs etc etc

 

[azontr]

I will say this again, You guys are legit saying if Koji were to pierce his eyes, The knife would break

Eyes being 10-C as they have no protection from bones, Muscles or anything

The same can be said to the groin, It is 10-C as they are not protected by muscles, ribs etc etc

This isn't a counter-argument. You haven't debunked the core premise of the argument, which is that these characters wielding weapons magnitudes below their tier simply makes no logical sense in context.

"You guys are saying", or "you guys are implying", isn't a counter-argument. You have to actually tackle the logic behind what is being said.

 

[Kachon123]

Their argument implies that Daniel's entire body is 9-A which is complete and utterly false when we have instances where pressure points cause major damage,

You're comparing 9-A characters using pressure points to other 9-A characters to say a 9-C with over 68 thousand times lower AP will be able to cause "major damage" to a 9-A character. That's complete bull.

Lookism human biology works just as IRL, The weak points are 10-C to 10-B

Prove this. If their weak points are 10-C to 10-B like you said, they would have been completely taken out when hit with the 9-A pressure point attacks that you linked above. Unless you want to say Lookism characters can take attacks billions of times stronger than themselves, then this is such a counterproductive point. Human biology in tons of series work like the human biology in the real world. That doesn't mean that a 6-A character will be at all harmed by a 6-C one just because they attack pressure points.

They legit think they are 9-A, Ayanokouji can just attack the eyes, Throat and groin which most definitely are not 9-A

If Koji can hit the eyes of someone who can blitz him, then sure. The throat and groin are definitely 9-A, otherwise they would have been oneshotted.

The 3rd argument is that they say Daniel doesn't get weaker when fighting weaker opponents which is blantantly false when we have these statements

Not a single person said that Daniel doesn't automatically lower his AP when fighting weaker opponents. We're refuting your claim that his AP becomes equal to his enemy's AP, as that's never once been shown.

More over, Daniel has once fought Gun who could obliterate people like Eli Jang, Johan and some other characters without much difficulty who were high tiers of the time, Yet Daniel was fighting on par with them and only won because of being more skilled

In the link you sent Daniel is literally AP and durability stomping Jake, Samuel, Eli, and Johan. What are you talking about.

Then we have idiotic arguments like these (Sorry for sounding offensive) where they say the knife attacks are sharper than actual knives when said move doesn't even cut anything in the series, This is just AP, Then we have outright showings of lookism characters not being immune to slashing/piercing weapons or even fking glass shards and chopsticks, Also, They used physics in the worst way. "In a 9-A verse, if a knife can harm a 9-A character, then that knife is 9-A." This is automatically very bad.

There's no point in apologizing for "sounding offensive" when you're just going to start throwing around insults. It's pretentious and unproductive to the debate, but I digress.

As for Kwak Jichang's attacks not cutting, I'm genuinely so confused. Like brother what? Also, you're still comparing 9-A characters using slashing attacks against other 9-A characters to say that a 9-C character's knife would be able to work. That's like saying "Frieza was cut by Trunks so he can be cut by Koji."
It makes no sense.

On top of this, we've literally seen UI Daniel go against a cutting weapon and just grab it with his hands with no cuts. How do you expect Koji do do anything here?

if this needs to be re-locked.... I do need to do my job

All in all, what Zetsu is a nothing burger. Nothing new has been brought up at all. These are the same arguments that were brought up for 5 pages before the thread was closed.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

You're comparing 9-A characters using pressure points to other 9-A characters to say a 9-C with over 68 thousand times lower AP will be able to cause "major damage" to a 9-A character. That's complete bull.

You guys still have not proven how their eyes or groin are 9-A

Human weak points are legit 10-C to 10-B, You guys blatantly ignore this and scale their weak points to their normal dura which is complete nonsense

Prove this. If their weak points are 10-C to 10-B like you said, they would have been completely taken out when hit with the 9-A pressure point attacks that you linked above. Unless you want to say Lookism characters can take attacks billions of times stronger than themselves, then this is such a counterproductive point. Human biology in tons of series work like the human biology in the real world. That doesn't mean that a 6-A character will be at all harmed by a 6-C one just because they attack pressure points.

They tank via higher stamina wtf, Pressure points aren't insta K.O unless proven to do so, Such as Koji attacking the neck to knock out Ibuki which also is a unprotected area

If Koji can hit the eyes of someone who can blitz him, then sure. The throat and groin are definitely 9-A, otherwise they would have been oneshotted.

Again, Argument from incredulity, Speed is equalized and i have proven several times that he does not blitz and gets his statistics lowered

You guys dismiss the proof i give for whatever reason

Not a single person said that Daniel doesn't automatically lower his AP when fighting weaker opponents. We're refuting your claim that his AP becomes equal to his enemy's AP, as that's never once been shown.

Never showned?? Gun and Daniel themselves state that is precisely the case wtf

In the link you sent Daniel is literally AP and durability stomping Jake, Samuel, Eli, and Johan. What are you talking about.

No? He is using skills + technique + versatility, How can you not see that??

He is blocking and parrying via skill

There's no point in apologizing for "sounding offensive" when you're just going to start throwing around insults. It's pretentious and unproductive to the debate, but I digress.

I never insulted anyone

As for Kwak Jichang's attacks not cutting, I'm genuinely so confused. Like brother what?

This is AP wtf

Also, you're still comparing 9-A characters using slashing attacks against other 9-A characters to say that a 9-C character's knife would be able to work. That's like saying "Frieza was cut by Trunks so he can be cut by Koji."
It makes no sense.

Slashing and piercing weapons have shown to work against Lookism characters, So i have no idea where you want to go with this

On top of this, we've literally seen UI Daniel go against a cutting weapon and just grab it with his hands with no cuts. How do you expect Koji do do anything here?

Thats legit the back part of the weapon

All in all, what Zetsu is a nothing burger. Nothing new has been brought up at all. These are the same arguments that were brought up for 5 pages before the thread was closed.

I would say you are dismissing proof that i give and use argument from incredulity

 

[Kachon123]

No? He is using skills + technique + versatility, How can you not see that??

Blocked Samuel's punch and dented his face in with a single punch.

Took out Samuel and Jake simultaneously with one attack.

Tanked Jerry's punch and nearly oneshotted him before being protected by Jake.

Tanks all of Johan's attacks and knocks him around.

Is able to block and tank Johan's attacks while his own attacks deal significant damage to Johan.

How the hell is he equal in stats to these people?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Blocked Samuel's punch and dented his face in with a single punch.

If he really had his face dented, Then he would've died on the spot lol

Took out Samuel and Jake simultaneously with one attack.

Wtf, They aren't knocked up, Jake legit gets up right after to block Daniel's attack reflection to save Jerry

And Samuel is also still up to tell daniel to run away

Tanked Jerry's punch and nearly oneshotted him before being protected by Jake.

There is a thing called "Damage reduction", Daniel legit used Hobin Yoo technique to reduce damage

Heck, It's even on his profile

Tanks all of Johan's attacks and knocks him around.

He is blocking wtf

He blocked him, Grabbed his leg in the process and started ramming him around

Also it's stated by Jake that Johan is letting himself get hit to copy UI Daniel

Is able to block and tank Johan's attacks while his own attacks deal significant damage to Johan.

He is using technique to reduce damage wtf

 

[Tomfer]

You are outright saying their body is made of metal which they aren't

I don't remember ever typing this... but nonetheless.

Eyes being 10-C as they have no protection from bones, Muscles or anything

The same can be said to the groin, It is 10-C as they are not protected by muscles, ribs etc etc

I do agree that pressure points are a form of durability negation... but you're reaching so far and wide that it's comical at best. I agree that the human body has weaker parts, but saying that a 9-A character has 10-C durablity in some parts is WICKED wrong on so many levels. In order for pressure points to work as dura neg, you need to be in similar AP level, which isn't the case. Yes, they're weaker parts, but they're not tiers below weaker.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I don't remember ever typing this... but nonetheless.


I do agree that pressure points are a form of durability negation... but you're reaching so far and wide that it's comical at best. I agree that the human body has weaker parts, but saying that a 9-A character has 10-C durablity in some parts is WICKED wrong on so many levels. In order for pressure points to work as dura neg, you need to be in similar AP level, which isn't the case. Yes, they're weaker parts, but they're not tiers below weaker.

So you are saying, If Koji stabs him in the eye or groin, A place where there are is no defense

Is 9-B to 9-A minimum? Surely you are not saying this madness right?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Also, I would like to clarify something

Speed is equalized

Daniel will not increase his speed, I repeat, This is speed equalized for a reason

 

[Robo432343]

Wait who is saying a 9-A character has 10-C dura
If u think this make a crt

 

[azontr]

You can still increase your speed with amps in speed equalized. Especially since Daniel is the faster opponent when speed is unequalized.

 

[Robo432343]

Also, I would like to clarify something

Speed is equalized

Daniel will not increase his speed, I repeat, This is speed equalized for a reason

Speed amps are allowed in speed equal matches

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Wait who is saying a 9-A character has 10-C dura
If u think this make a crt

No, Don't get me wrong wtf

I am saying pressure points or weak areas such as eyes or groin are by default 10-C because they have 0 Defenses, There is no muscles, No bones or anything protecting it

 

[Tomfer]

So you are saying, If Koji stabs him in the eye or groin, A place where there are is no defense

Is 9-B to 9-A minimum? Surely you are not saying this madness right?

Bro, you're saying that a normal knife can bypass a durability 68,000 times stronger than it's AP and you think people arguing against you are mad? Goofy ass behavior.

Daniel will not increase his speed, I repeat, This is speed equalized for a reason

Stats amp will still work.

 

[azontr]

default 10-C

No, they are not. The skin doesn't have any defenses either but we don't list it as tier 10 because it "has nothing to defend it".

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Bro, you're saying that a normal knife can bypass a durability 68,000 times stronger than it's AP and you think people arguing against you are mad? Goofy ass behavior.

His eyes and groin are not 9-A wtf

Stats amp will still work.

UI itself is the amp, He is already amped :/

 

[XxZetsuxX]

No, they are not. The skin doesn't have any defenses either but we don't list it as tier 10 because it "has nothing to defend it".

Again, Lookism character's eyes are not 9-A, Nor is their groin, This is defying logic on a verse that works with IRL settings

 

[azontr]

Again, Lookism character's eyes are not 9-A, Nor is their groin, This is defying logic on a verse that works with IRL settings

Repeating what you said isn't a debunk. If your argument that these areas are 10-C is "they have no defenses", then the skin may as well also be 10-C because it has nothing to defend it either.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Repeating what you said isn't a debunk. If your argument that these areas are 10-C is "they have no defenses", then the skin may as well also be 10-C because it has nothing to defend it either.

Because it is? Channing Choi could slash him easily

Goo could stab Sinu Han with a chopstick

Goo could slash Sinu Han with glass shards

 

[azontr]

Because it is?

Okay, let's hold up just 1 second. Just for 1 second.

You think that the skin of characters is 10-C by default?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Okay, let's hold up just 1 second. Just for 1 second.

You think that the skin of characters is 10-C by default?

They are elastic, Not solid

 

[azontr]

That didn't answer my question. Do you believe that the skin of a fighter, due to having "no defenses", is 10-C?

 

[XxZetsuxX]

That didn't answer my question. Do you believe that the skin of a fighter, due to having "no defenses", is 10-C?

Unless proven otherwise, Ye

Same goes for eyes, Groin or any unprotected spot

 

[Tomfer]

His eyes and groin are not 9-A wtf

Again, Lookism character's eyes are not 9-A, Nor is their groin, This is defying logic on a verse that works with IRL settings

And no normal human being is 9-A by default, you're putting irl logic into something that does not have any just to make your "argument" seem less of a reach. IRL settings cannot and will not work here. You're just throwing the word "logic" around and hoping it's going to stick into something.

Your ONLY real argument, since pages ago, was the fact that knifes can harm Lookism characters, and that argument was debunked by the fact that weaponry scales to user's AP. You did not show anything new beyond that. So yes, Lookism knifes are stronger than IRL knifes. If you disagree with that idea, you can make a CRT to correct that.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I would also like to note that Koji has stamina advantage where he could rely on that to win due to UI tiring himself out

 

[azontr]

Unless proven otherwise, Ye

So, you believe that Daniel (and Ayanakouji) both have 10-C skin...?

 

[Zefra3011]

Honestly I didn't really understand the part about how we treats weapons on the wiki; regardless I still want to say few things.

All I'm saying is that it's possible to overcome a 68000x difference just by affecting a smaller area/volume, it's the same logic as how we scale destruction feats; the smaller the volume destroyed the smaller the Ap needs to be; a knife has an area of one millimeter while a punch has an area of tens of cm^2, the difference is an abyss.

I also want to say a specific pressure point Ayanokouji uses is accepted as Limited Durability Negation due to damaging the internal organs; I'm not saying it makes sense or not, it's just what's accepted.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

So, you believe that Daniel (and Ayanakouji) both have 10-C skin...?

Yeah, Along with his eyes, Groin or any unguarded spot, He is no exception

 

[azontr]

Yeah, Along with his eyes, Groin or any unguarded spot, He is no exception

But you understand how this is crazy, yes? Daniel (and Ayanakouji) have withstood attacks that are obviously not 10-C with no damage to their skin.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

But you understand how this is crazy, yes? Daniel (and Ayanakouji) have withstood attacks that are obviously not 10-C with no damage to their skin.

Koji was never hit in any PP

They can resist via stamina, PP is not a one shot skill

The type of PP they use are not one shot level at least

Koji on the other hand, He has 1 PP that can knock you out with 1 hit to the neck

 

[azontr]

They can resist via stamina

Okay, I know this is hypocritical of me because I got on you for talking about implications, but this is baffling. Bear with me, because I just need to understand your point of view.

You believe that characters who tank an attack with no visible damage to their skin, which is what I said BTW I never mentioned pressure points, have incurred damage that we somehow don't see, and are continuing to fight via... stamina.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Okay, I know this is hypocritical of me because I got on you for talking about implications, but this is baffling. Bear with me, because I just need to understand your point of view.

You believe that characters who tank an attack with no visible damage to their skin, which is what I said BTW I never mentioned pressure points, have incurred damage that we somehow don't see, and are continuing to fight via... stamina.

No, What i am trying to say is, Skin is the outer layer which is 10-C, Then we have muscles, bones, Mass etc etc, Those things are not 10-C

Piercing/slashing damage can easily damage/cut the skin

I don't know if i am explaining this correctly

 

[azontr]

Skin is the outer layer which is 10-C

Okay, but characters can take attacks that deal no damage to their skin, from characters who perform feats that aren't 10-C, such as say, caving in a wall. These characters can, in turn, perform such feats without damaging the skin of their fists, or the skin of whatever body part they used to perform the feat.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Okay, but characters can take attacks that deal no damage to their skin, from characters who perform feats that aren't 10-C, such as say, caving in a wall. These characters can, in turn, perform such feats without damaging the skin of their fists, or the skin of whatever body part they used to perform the feat.

Yeah because those are not, Like i said, Piercing/slashing damage

Knives can easily bypass this

Also, I would like to mention how vin jin and tae jin (I think that was his name?) fought in a place full of scattered glass and they got cut easily which further proves my point

Glass shards are not 9-A (for the love of god they were just standing there in the ground) they were cut by them