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The Ultra Series Discussion Thread: Unleash! The Power of Imagination!

This was the line from his profile description

“Also, King uses the life-threatening "teleportation" of Ultra Warriors as a daily means of transportation for him”

Good question about teleportation. Although I believe the normal non combat applicable teleportation is usable by all Ultras. Since we clearly see Tiga and Dyna use it as well. I believe the fully combat applicable teleportation like the one Saga and Hurricane Slash Orb uses are the ones that most ultras can’t use. But the normal teleportation should be a thing all Ultras can use normally.
 
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Aside from the obvious ones, only Gaia and Agul has used it in combat. In any case, seems like it's fair to say all Ultras have it. Kind of a shame some of the final and movie forms of the New Gen don't have any confirmation of having teleportation though, would really help. Only Zero Beyond has it.
 
But yeah any other thing you want me to bring up? Oh right just remembered we still need to give Greeza the abilities of all the monsters it absorbed and didn’t you also talk about some potential conceptual stuff for Greeza as well? And should we also give it the Greeza in Ultraman Z a higher after absorbing Geed or no? It didn’t fully absorb Geed so I’m wondering if it should get a higher. Oh right there’s also the Maximum Cannon turning things into photons thus giving IF’s regen an upgrade to High.
 
Conceptual Manipulation on Greeza? I don't remember that, but giving him everything the absorbed monsters has is fine. Dunno about absorbing Geed, though. Though now that I think about it, who was affecting who? Because if it's changed so that it was Geed's influence that made Greeza more erratic, that could potentially upgrade his resistances and anyone who's held Belial's powers.

Max's beam turns targets into photons? That might also count as deconstruction to some extent. Speaking of which, is there any other databoojs that goes a bit more in-depth about the Ultras' techniques?

As for anything else, nothing I can think of now.
 
Mr.Cutlery said:
I'm gonna keep posting in case I don't forget.

So, suppose that the Waterfall of Time chapter of the UFZ novel is made canon, should we give Zero resistance to time manipulation for having to swim through literal time itself? He needed to overcome it, and the more he went, the more memories got back to him indicating that he was going through his own lifespan.

On another note, would it be necessary to give Greeza Abstract Existence as well? And what would it be? Having no corporeal form would obviously warrant Type 1, but he is the void itself, embodying that abstraction, would Type 2 fit better?
Click to expand...
Yeah nevermind you were actually talking about Abstract Existence for Greeza not conceptual manipulation. Oh right also resistance to time manipulation for Zero.

Yep it was this image here. Google translate probably won’t work though since there’s a bunch of watermarks.

Sadly I don’t know which databooks go into detail about an Ultras abilities. I only manage to find bits and pieces of databook informations on those random Tieba threads.
 
Ah crap, that reminds me, I've been listing a bunch of resistances and other abilities for the Ultras, and they're actually pretty extensive. But I guess we could cover a couple of characters at least, like maybe Zero, Belial and King. Anyway, I'm pretty sure Greeza having NEP might make AE unneeded I think.

Oh hell yeah, Max definitely has Deconstruction according to that.

Unfortunate.
 
Yeah I think for now the first miscellaneous thread should just be the Low 2-C scaling and ability additions for the characters with a profile. We can talk about the Ultra Physiology in the next miscellaneous CRT. I mean some profiles like this one lists both non-existence physiology and abstract existence. So I guess it doesn't hurt to add a potential extra ability. Oh right also Greeza needs Invulnerability to physical and energy attacks.
 
Alright, sounds good. Well, kinda have to draft it first because transferring everything relevant from my note would take too much time on mobile.
 
Yeah I’ll slowly make a draft over the course of this week. Can’t make everything at once now that the new semester has begun and classes have truly started.
 
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Oh damn, well okay, you'd know which one to focus more on so I'll save my breath. Meanwhile, I'll be compiling whatever else we might have missed.
 
I'm gonna be listing the abilities for that upcoming thread.

Zero
Powers and Abilities:
*Causality Manipulation, Probability Manipulation and limited Existence Erasure (By using Shining Star Drive, Zero could alter certain events in his favor. It was also said that under his trance that he runs the risk of potentially erasing certain people from existence by "making those that could have been born to not be born, what could have been would not happen; as if time itself had stopped". After the first use, Zero accidentally undid Belial's death [better as weakness probably])
*Regeneration (Low-Mid as Zero Beyond, healed a wound that penetrated his chest and through his body, hitting his heart and lungs)
*Teleportation (Combat applicable as Zero Beyond)

Resistance:
*(Heisei)Existence Erasure and Deconstruction (Unaffected by Planet Boris' anomalous nature, which as a planet that does not exist in any universe could erase abnormalities that steps foot on it. The erasure is also described as being a breakdown)
*(Heisei)Empathic Manipulation (Survived the weaponized hatred that fills the Techtor Gear Hatred. Broke free of Galberos' illusion which was reflecting his doubts and anxieties back to him. Unaffected by Planet Tenebris' atmosphere which was filled with highly concentrated form of Minus energy which can trigger negative emotions such as hatred and despair)
*(Heisei)Illusions (Broke free of Galberos' illusion)
*Fear Manipulation (Overcame forceful triggering of his memories of when he was forced to kill his comrades, which had caused him Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Etelgar's Eteldummies are born of people's fear and was meant to instill it into his targets, but Zero and the other Ultras were unaffected by their Eteldummies)
*(Heisei)Power Sealing/Nullification/Both? (Was able to break out of the Techtor Gear Hatred, which had a handicapping effect on him)
*(Heisei)Power Drain (Was able to retain most of his strength in Beatstar's mist despite it having halved his power. Could last longer within Ultra DarkKiller's Killer Zone had he not been sharing his energy with Grigio)
*Gravity and Physics Manipulation (Survived being inside of Bullton's 4-dimensional pocket space, which had the effect of warping natural phenomena)
*Space-Time Manipulation (Same as above. Possibly immune as Shining. Was also forced to swim through the literal sands of time in order for him to regain and control his Shining form, during which he was assailed by clusters of sand that had taken the form of a boulder)
*Time Stop (The time powers that Shining possessed covered all forms of controlling it, and as such, Zero should have a resistance to time stop as well. I'm not sure how to properly word this one)

Also, side thing, but was it specified which series' databook mentioned Red King as being able to crush a universe again? And did we already clarified that Gracie mentioned his as being able to do so?

Belial
Powers and Abilities:
*Biological Manipulation (By using his Atros Hell Claws, Belial could destroy the target's cells)
*Possibly Quantum Manipulation (Same reason he has space-time manipulation. Universes are also distinguished from the fact that each has differing quantum structures, so at his level of power, Belial would logically have to be able to effect the universe on such scale as well)
*Absorption (Surprisingly, Chimeraberos doesn't have this)
*Life and Light Manipulation or Power Draining (As Arch Belial, his hits were forcing Zero's light to leave his body)

Resistances:
*Space-Time Manipulation and Quantum Manipulation (Survived being at the epicenter of the Super Dimensional Annihilation Bomb)

King
Powers and Abilities:
*Sealing (Sealed off Belial in the Space Prison and his Giga Battlenizer in the Valley of Flames)
*Quantum Manipulation (Restored the entirety of Side Space universe)
*Life Manipulation

Greeza
Powers and Abilities
*Abstract Existence (The physical body that is seen is simply the mind attempting to perceive a total lack of information. Greeza is also said to be the void itself)
*Immunity to physical and energy attacks (Observed by Z that it's not so much that Greeza was stronger than him that made it hard to defeat, but also because of the fact it isn't actually there at all)
*Immunity to Information Manipulation (Greeza's physical form is merely the mind's attempt to perceive a total lack of information, which what he is)

So that's it I think. Unless you also want to cover the other profiles such as X and Orb, plus a few for Ultraman, Ginga and Victory.

Edit: Also hey, is this gonna break scaling?
 
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Alright thanks. I’ll add video links and stuff to those later.

Don’t know which databook it was but this is the description. But honestly I feel like this is more of a hyperbole. Like I know he does scale to 3-A via fighting Zero but I still feel like Red King having grip strength strong enough to crush a universe is just hyperbole.

Yeah I think that’s good for now. We’ll do New Generation Ultras in the next miscellaneous thread and than the Ultra Physiology on the third one.

Edit: Also more Ultraman Trigger image scans
 
Ah, right. I completely forgot that KJSC is stronger than Beta Smash. In that case, would M78 Style Tornado Slash count as Dura Neg since Z used it to beat Red King in Alpha Edge? I feel like there should be certain cutter attacks that qualifies as dura neg such as Ace one-shotting Metron Jr with it despite being near-death, but you know, they're very iffy.

Oh wow, Zaragas is coming back, that's really nice. Hope to see Trigger changing forms to counter its adaptation.
 
I don't think the slash counts as durability negation. Alien Barossa II who was strong enough to tank an energy blast from Delta Rise Claw Z was able to effortlessly destroy the M78 Style Tornado Slash.

I think Z Riser moves like the slashes are just higher than normal AP. Like Lightning Generade was able to shut down King Joe when Gamma Future's quadruple beam wasn't able to do so. So I believe that the Z Riser techniques are just higher than normal AP but not really durability negation.

Cutter attacks in general are probably just slightly stronger than normal attacks due to cutting attacks applying damage to a small area.
 
I think there was one magazine that might fit the bill of canon. But I don’t think it’s ever officially confirmed canon like the two recent stage shows.

It’s a magazine story about Armored Darkness. From what I remember this magazine story detailed how Hikari got stuck in Armored Darkness during the events of the Mebius Gaiden: Armored Darkness. I haven’t read it myself so I don’t know for sure if there were any contradiction that makes it non canon. If the Mebius databook mentions this event within itself than it probably is canon but I don’t have the databook so I don’t know whether or not this magazine is canon or not.
 
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Mr.Cutlery said:
I'm gonna be listing the abilities for that upcoming thread.

Zero
Powers and Abilities:
*Causality Manipulation and limited Existence Erasure (By using Shining Star Drive, Zero could alter certain events in his favor. It was also said that under his trance that he runs the risk of potentially erasing certain people from existence by "making those that could have been born to not be born, what could have been would not happen; as if time itself had stopped". After the first use, Zero accidentally undid Belial's death [better as weakness probably])
*Regeneration (Low-Mid as Zero Beyond, healed a wound that penetrated his chest and through his body, hitting his heart and lungs)
*Teleportation (Combat applicable as Zero Beyond)

Resistance:
*(Heisei)Existence Erasure and Deconstruction (Unaffected by Planet Boris' anomalous nature, which as a planet that does not exist in any universe could erase abnormalities that steps foot on it. The erasure is also described as being a breakdown)
*(Heisei)Empathic Manipulation (Survived the weaponized hatred that fills the Techtor Gear Hatred. Broke free of Galberos' illusion which was reflecting his doubts and anxieties back to him. Unaffected by Planet Tenebris' atmosphere which was filled with highly concentrated form of Minus energy which can trigger negative emotions such as hatred and despair)
*(Heisei)Illusions (Broke free of Galberos' illusion)
*Fear Manipulation (Overcame forceful triggering of his memories of when he was forced to kill his comrades, which had caused him Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Etelgar's Eteldummies are born of people's fear and was meant to instill it into his targets, but Zero and the other Ultras were unaffected by their Eteldummies)
*(Heisei)Power Sealing/Nullification/Both? (Was able to break out of the Techtor Gear Hatred, which had a handicapping effect on him)
*(Heisei)Power Drain (Was able to retain most of his strength in Beatstar's mist despite it having halved his power. Could last longer within Ultra DarkKiller's Killer Zone had he not been sharing his energy with Grigio)
*Gravity and Physics Manipulation (Survived being inside of Bullton's 4-dimensional pocket space, which had the effect of warping natural phenomena)
*Space-Time Manipulation (Same as above. Possibly immune as Shining. Was also forced to swim through the literal sands of time in order for him to regain and control his Shining form, during which he was assailed by clusters of sand that had taken the form of a boulder)
*Time Stop (The time powers that Shining possessed covered all forms of controlling it, and as such, Zero should have a resistance to time stop as well. I'm not sure how to properly word this one)

Also, side thing, but was it specified which series' databook mentioned Red King as being able to crush a universe again? And did we already clarified that Gracie mentioned his as being able to do so?

Belial
Powers and Abilities:
*Biological Manipulation (By using his Atros Hell Claws, Belial could destroy the target's cells)
*Possibly Quantum Manipulation (Same reason he has space-time manipulation. Universes are also distinguished from the fact that each has differing quantum structures, so at his level of power, Belial would logically have to be able to effect the universe on such scale as well)
*Absorption (Surprisingly, Chimeraberos doesn't have this)
*Life and Light Manipulation or Power Draining (As Arch Belial, his hits were forcing Zero's light to leave his body)

Resistances:
*Space-Time Manipulation and Quantum Manipulation (Survived being at the epicenter of the Super Dimensional Annihilation Bomb)

King
Powers and Abilities:
*Sealing (Sealed off Belial in the Space Prison and his Giga Battlenizer in the Valley of Flames)
*Quantum Manipulation (Restored the entirety of Side Space universe)
*Life Manipulation

Greeza
Powers and Abilities
*Abstract Existence (The physical body that is seen is simply the mind attempting to perceive a total lack of information. Greeza is also said to be the void itself)
*Immunity to physical and energy attacks (Observed by Z that it's not so much that Greeza was stronger than him that made it hard to defeat, but also because of the fact it isn't actually there at all)

So that's it I think. Unless you also want to cover the other profiles such as X and Orb, plus a few for Ultraman, Ginga and Victory.

Edit: Also hey, is this gonna break scaling?
Click to expand...
Also

Those ability will be added to their profile right?

Or we will have to remove some of their ability in their profile ? Like king reality warping and space time manipulation

Also when will we edit ultraman x profile ?

He have fate manipulation and wish making ability right ?
 
Oh right did anybody know about this before hand?

Apparently it says here that Carmeara is weaker than Darrgon and slower than Hudram but she has a hidden power that is far greater than the two. So I guess this means that Carmeara has a second form confirmed? Anybody thinking it might be Demonzoa 2.0 or something similar?

Also apparently Trigger Dark has the powers of all three of Trigger's forms

It also says that even Power Trigger has a hard time matching him. So it seems like Trigger Dark > All three of Trigger's form

Edit: Also I found the Beatstar's fog halving power statement. And I just realized that Base Zero at half power was actually shown to be able to keep up with and trade blows with Jean-Killer who is stronger than Kaiser Belial multiple times.

So yeah Ultimate Zero's multiplier needs to be downgraded to just 10x Base Zero. Since based on this fight between the two Full Power Base Zero at the time of Killer the Beatstar is actually twice as strong as Kaiser Belial not weaker and Zero likely grew even stronger after the events of Ultraman Saga. So scaling between them actually looks something like this.

Full Power Base Zero (Killer the Beatstar/Post-Ultraman Saga) 2x > Weakened Base Zero (Killer the Beatstar) =< Jean-Killer > Kaiser Belial > Base Zero (Belial Galactic Empire) > Base Zero (Ultra Galaxy Legends) > Base Belial

And this sadly means Goku vs Zero is outdated and needs to be removed as now Ultimate Shining Zero is no longer strong enough to one shot Goku to force an inconclusive. And the entire Galaxy Crisis Era to Reiwa Era scaling needs to be redone again.
 
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@Kamenriderblaze
Yes, those are to be added. But why would some abilities be removed? And X's profile will be edited, we'll try bringing up the Xlugger at one point.

@Peter1129
That's interesting. Hopefully it'll yield some good AP feat since it's likely to clash with Glitter Eternity. Speaking of that, hope we'll also get some info about the Eternity Core soon.

Jean-Killer is stronger than Kaiser Belial? It always seemed like Gaiden 2 happened shortly after Revenge of Belial so Base Zero at the time shouldn't have gotten that much stronger. Besides, he was stomped by Kaiser Belial, so even if he was stronger than before, it was still halved power Zero that kept up with Jean Killer. What am I missing?

Edit: Okay, apparently it should be in the span of 1 year, since that's how long it has been since the formation of Ultimate Force Zero.

I'm just sorta horrified to know that he'll get such a massive downgrade, like damn.
 
Well the only thing we know so far about the Eternity Core is that it is said to have energy comparable to the start of the universe. And the Dark Giants want to use it to remake the universe in their own image using it. Edit: So Eternity Core = Big Bang?

Yeah Jean-Killer is stronger than Kaiser Belial as he was the one that was said to be Zero's third strongest enemy and not Kaiser Belial. And Belial's two other forms Beryudora and Arch Belial are number 2 and number 1 respectively. And Base Zero at half power (due to Beatstar's fog which covers the planet) despite being weaker was still strong enough to be able to match Jean-Killer in combat.

To be fair when Zero received the Ultimate Aegis he also received the light of an entire universe. So he probably got a power boost while also unlocking Ultimate Form.

But yeah pretty big downgrade. Although this is actually more consistent with how Ultimate Zero was stated to be a 何倍も (Nanbaimo) many times boost rather than a 何十倍 (Nanjuubai) tens of times (At least 20) boost in the 2010 interview.

Anyways this downgrades the god tiers AP to just 90,000,000x baseline 3-A and 100x baseline Low 2-C now. Although this also buffs the AP of most of the weaker 3-As as there's an extra 2x multiplier for the low tiers now. Anyways this is how the APs look now.
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Well that's awful about the new values, but fine. Right, so 90 million times for absolute god tiers and somewhere within 1 digit million for top tiers like New Gen final forms and Ultra Brothers? Eh, fine, I guess.

Yeah that's the one we already know about. But what the hell is that kanji near 開? It's undecipherable by the text extractor.
 
High Tiers will be far stronger than 900,000x baseline 3-A to the point where they one shot those that one shots 900,000x baseline 3-A and are also around baseline Low 2-C. The top tiers are essentially the fusions and Zero and they are in the millions to tens of millions times baseline 3-A and 10-20x baseline Low 2-C. And finally the god tiers are at 90 million times baseline 3-A and 100x baseline Low 2-C via upscaling from Ultimate Shining Zero and Tartarus.

You mean 開闢 (Kaibyaku)? According to the Japanese dictionary it means opening/creation/beginning. In this context it seems to be saying the Eternity Core has energy on par with the beginning (aka creation) of the universe. Which sounds blatantly Low 2-C. And if Glitter Trigger Eternity uses the Eternity Core as a power source than yeah more evidence for Low 2-C High Tiers. I would actually be really happy if its outright Low 2-C. Although if this does happen it would also mean the 3-A scaling ends at 90,000x baseline 3-A and anything higher than that is just straight up Low 2-C without the 3-A low end. Basically good bye to millions of times 3-A Ultra Series if outright Low 2-C does happen.
 
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Nice, and if it does come to parting with anywhere up to the millions, I wouldn't mind since there's not much else who seem to go abive 1000x other than those listed in the Highest AP thread. Though that's probably gonna change still. But there's also the fact that it probably won't matter much if there's barely any haxxes to keep them supported.

Anyway, looks like that's what it says then, and yeah, it is a blatant Low 2-C when considered in that context, plus the possible alternate timeline stuff that could be happening in Trigger. Also, since Trigger is planned as a more regular series, we could have a movie with a potentially stronger form. Well it'd probably be better if they continue to expand on the idea of light and darkness so I can actually get more on that possible CM addition.

On that topic, I think we should try bring up Grimdo's type of chaos manip since it's been explicitly stated to be something that precedes the existence of universes. Or at least my plan was to ask if it could potentially be CM Type 2, but then we haven't seen its use on a bigger scale.
 
Yeah same here. I wouldn't really be that sad losing the higher 3-As since not many characters can match them in AP anyway. And the ones that are in the same range are either too strong or too haxxed. Dragon Ball Super just has even more 3-As that scale higher than Ultra Series 3-As. And they have humongous multipliers that are unknown so its not like you can use them against anybody outside of their own verse.

I actually think that Glitter Trigger Eternity might be Trigger's strongest form. Cause for all we know they might not be making another movie since they seem to be focusing on Ultra Galaxy Fight nowadays.

So add that to the miscellaneous revision? I'll probably just leave that for part 2. Part 1 will be the Low 2-C scaling and the multiplier changes only since there turned out to be more stuff that needs to be changed than I thought. I'll make part 2 the ability revisions and part 3 the Ultra Physiology stuff.
 
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That's right.

Damn, you might be right. But I'll still keep my hopes up for a Trigger movie, if only for the story. And hey, that's what it's for in the first place, so yeah.

Alright then, part 2 it is. I'll scour the Blue Shadow novel again to see if there's anything there before resorting to New Generation Climax.
 
You know I just realized that Trigger has already had way more fights than any other New Generation Ultra has in any of their own series. Like every episode except episode 4 Trigger has had to fight at least 2 different enemies in the same episode. And that’s not even counting the 1v3 and potential 1v4 he seems to be getting in future episodes against the Dark Giants. And even outside of that from the leaks he seems to be fighting a bunch of boss tier enemies like Woola and Orochi in the second half of the series. And heck Tartarus might be returning as well with another Absolutian. We literallly just had Z’s series having a bunch of bosses returning and now Trigger’s series appears with an even higher difficulty with even stronger bosses than Z’s series returning. Like damn what did he do to deserve this impossible difficulty.
 
Damn, this had always been at the back of my mind, but when you put it that way, it does feel a whole lot worse. His handicaps too seem to be far more than Z when you remember he now has Trigger Dark to fight, who has all the combined power of his Type Changes, followed by the Absolutians and the possible time stuffs they'll be using. And if they reuse the same physiology, Woola might also have the infinite energy reserves it once had back in Taiga. To top it off, he already is still at a disadvantage given the fact he still doesn't have full control or mastery over his own powers if we go by Ignis' words at the end of 6.
 
Also I just found out that we actually treat 何倍も (Nanbaimo) many times as a 4x multiplier rather than 3x since the definition of several is

“an indefinite number more than two and fewer than many”

And in these threads everybody says many should be bigger than several.



So yeah more changes. Some 3x multipliers on the sandbox needs to be changed to 4x.
 
So uhh remember this thing I showed with the Cyber Cards. So yeah I took a look at it more carefully this time and I think its probably best we just stop using this for the scaling. Cause it seems like this is just the list of cyber cards for monsters and aliens that have appeared in the series and not the list of monsters and aliens that are in Hybrid Armor. Cause we actually see Mold Spectre in this list as well. Which shouldn't be possible as they never got his spark doll. So yeah I think we should probably go back to using only the monsters we know had their spark dolls retrieved by XIO.

Also do we treat the Cyber Armors as having the full power of the monsters? Cause if we do I believe we can consider Hybrid Armor a 20x multiplier based on that being the minimum number of monsters that Greeza absorbed to evolve into its final form. And Beta Spark Armor can scale above this due to it being stated to be X's strongest armor.

Also I've been thinking. Should we make keys for the monsters and aliens that appear in Ultra Galaxy Fight 2? Like we don't know what time period they were from so I was thinking should we just give them new keys based on their feats from UGF2 even if it has some contradictions like the whole Juda and Mold stuff?
 
Yeah that was my concern as well, since they explicitly stated that those like Mold who cannot coexist with others are to be completely destroyed. Basically the story dictates what happens to them.

I think we've always sort of treated them at full power, but then episode 8 had a bit of contradiction with how they shouldn't focus on the power output. But then again, I think it's pretty logical to say so since Hybrid Armor was the result of the monsters' full cooperation. Just use it, I think.

I guess you can do that if you want.
 
Alright so we remove that usage of that 34 monsters thing and go back to the 20+ monster stuff.

Okay so 20x multiplier for Hybrid Armor and Beta Armor scaling off the number of monsters Greeza absorbed.

And just to go over the major parts of the new Absolute Conspiracy keys.

Night Fang will get a 4-B or at least 4-A, possibly 3-B key scaling from Taro. But honestly I don’t remember if Hikari Saga took place during Showa or Heisei. Does anybody remember which era Part 1 with Hikari becoming Tsurugi was set in?

Mold and Juda will get a Low 2-C key scaling from the Reiwa Era Ultra Brothers

And a bunch of other monsters like Maga-Orochi and Leugocyte will get a weaker 3-A key.
 
If we go by Taro and Tregear's interaction, Hikari Saga seemed to happen sometime after Taro, all the way to just before Mebius. Part 1 alone. Other than that, I think the keys are fine.
 
Yeah from their interactions in UGF2 Episode 4 it seems like Taro just came back after the events of Ultraman Taro. But right after that there was seemingly a timeskip of some sort. So I don't think we know if Hikari Saga Part 1 was Showa or Heisei. Should we just scale Night Fang to both Showa and Heisei since we aren't entirely sure? How does At least 4-B, likely 4-A, possibly 3-B UGF2 Night Fang sound?
 
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Actually that should be better, because I also jist remembered that they literally went on a mission after the Aarb incident.
 
Oh right also I finally found a statement about Orb Trinity.

Orb Trinity is more than 3x stronger than before. Also confirmation that Emerium Slugger is indeed stronger than all of Orb's other forms and therefore his second strongest form. So Orb Trinity is at least a 4x multiplier on I assume Orb Origin as that is Orb's base form although technically it doesn't really matter which form as all of Orb's forms are treated as comparable to each other (Excluding Emerium Slugger and Orb Trinity) after his training.

So everybody's AP got boosted again now that we actual have a multiplier for Orb Trinity.
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