The Ultra Series Discussion Thread: Unleash! The Power of Imagination!

[Mr.Cutlery]

Alright, so 100x base R/B Groob it is then? Pretty neat, even if a pretty massive multiplier. But I mean, then again, the others technically have layered multipliers too, in a way.

Huh, I thought Ultimate Final having a Low 2-C was because he scaled above Symbol of Geed, not by scaling to Zero. Actually, how do we treat post-Carellan breakdown Atrocious because that's kind of where I'm hinging on this. Okay, I just looked at the scenes again, and it only stops Belial from gathering more Childhood Radiation. But still, by that point, he already gathered enough to cause significant decrease in King's energy, leading to instability around the universe again so I'm pretty sure he'd still count as Low 2-C and thus Symbol of Geed as well.

Oh, right it was Jean-Nine not Beatstar. And I think treating the monsters in that tier range seems pretty reasonable since we kinda did that for Beryudora to bump him up to 4-B last time.

Is Joneus fighting Zett from the stage show? Which is supposedly canon, right? Then that is a problem. Maybe just cross it out for the time being?

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah the others also have layered multipliers so it’s not that bad. Like Ultimate Final Geed for example is stronger than Symbol of Geed which is at least 33x Primitive.

Laiha said Tri was researching a way to break down Carellan elements as it could find a way to get rid of them. And we clearly see that King’s energy were leaking out from Belial after being struck by the ship. So no at that time Belial Atrocious was back to being a normal 3-A and not a Low 2-C.

Alright. Also found this statement from an interview translated in chinese saying Beryudora in total has 226 monsters. Although considering how there are a few things in there that are jokes and not actually monsters with combat capabilities I think it’s fine to just use 220 instead. So 220/10 = 22 which means they are in total 22x baseline 3-A add on Belial’s 3x baseline 3-A would mean Beryudora is at least 25x baseline 3-A and Arch Belial scales above this.

Yeah it’s from the Taiga stage show which was confirmed canon. So yeah we should probably ignore Titas being on par with Joneus. Cause if we accept that it would mean Titas is Low 2-C. Which is honestly kind of ridiculous to think about.

So if we accept Bracelets having the full power of the Base Ultra and accept the Tregear and Imit-Belial matching Tri-Strium Taiga and presumably a casual Base Zero then

Baseline Low 2-C: Base Belial (After Crisis), Full Power Ultimate Zero (After Crisis), Full Power Shining Zero (After Crisis), Base Zero (Reiwa Era), Luna-Miracle Zero (Reiwa Era), Imit-Belial, Full Grimdo Tregear (Reiwa Era), New Generation Ultras strongest form (Reiwa Era), Ultra Brothers (Reiwa Era), Delta Rise Claw Z, Joneus (Before Crisis), Joneus (Reiwa Era), Beliarok, Plasma Zero-let, Woola, Fusion Baraba, Destrudos, Grimdo, Zett, likely Greeza (Ultraman Z), and possibly Alien Barossa II

3x Baseline Low 2-C: Strong-Corona Zero (Reiwa Era), Zero Beyond (Reiwa Era)

20x Baseline Low 2-C: Reiga, Super Taro, Ultimate Zero (Reiwa Era), Shining Zero (Reiwa Era)

400x Baseline Low 2-C: Ultimate Shining Zero, Absolute Tartarus, King, Noa, Legend, Delacion

Also this would mean Base Zero is now above baseline Low 2-C as he can fight both Tartarus amped Belial and Tregear at the same time while Joneus got his shield broken by Belial. So

Base Zero (Reiwa Era) > Joneus (Reiwa Era) >> Joneus (New Generation Era (Before Crisis)) = Zett < Tri-Strium Taiga (Full Power) > Tri-Strium Taiga (Weakened) = Imit Belial = Full Power Base Belial (New Generation Era (After Crisis)) (Baseline Low 2-C)

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Well that's unfortunate.

25x baseline Beryudora sounds fine to me anyway.

Okay, the statement is a non-factor then.

That scaling looks good, but it's kind of undecided still if we want to go with the Lets having their full power, right? I mean, I'm actually fine with it.

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah it’s still undecided if we assume the Lets have the Ultras full power or just a portion of it like all the other power borrowing gimmicks. But considering how the movie shows the New Generations transforming thanks to taking back the bracelet I assume it’s their full power.

But yeah I’ll update the scaling tomorrow. Need to sleep early as I have a pretty bad allergy today. So c ya.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Alright, get some rest.

 

[Peter1129]

I'm done revising the scaling

Peter1129/Sandbox

vsbattles.fandom.com

Oh right also I forgot the fact that Rosso and Blu have multiple combination attacks and those attacks were overpowered by people like Orb Dark who is equal to Orb Origin (Post-Geed). And Earth Rosso can restrain Orb Dark so he scales to Orb Dark. And Etelgar was mentioned in the special episode to be unharmed even by the combined power of the two. And its shown and mentioned multiple times that combination attacks are at least as strong as the two combined so it fits the requirements of the Multipliers page. Examples of all manners of combination attacks increasing power even those that didn't actually combine are

Neos and Seven 21's double kick having more than 4x the power of their individual kicks

Future Cosmos and Crusher Justice's combo beam Cross Perfection being noted to be several times stronger than their normal beams

Mebium Knight Shoot doubles the power of their beams

And there's a lot more mentions of combination attacks increasing power so you get the point that Ultra Series combination attacks fits the multipliers requirement. Which is why due to this Ginga, Victory, and Orb now have their AP increased by a bit.

Also thanks to Groob having the 100x multiplier the overall AP of the series increased a bit. The highest 3-A AP is now 180,000,000x Baseline 3-A.

I'll add the Z scaling stuff along with Trigger once Z appears in Trigger so we have a better grasp at the scaling.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

So that means it's bumped back up a little, right? That's good to know.

 

[Peter1129]

Barely but still bumped up a bit. They were originally 656.1 million than went down to the 108 million and now the highest 3-As are 180 million. Massively above 180 million but still written as 180 million.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Better than nothing I suppose. Just being able to hit 1000x baseline could've been enough, so this is just massive bonus.

 

[Peter1129]

True.

Also man it feels weird to see Joneus be the first Low 2-C Ultra in the series outside of the god tiers all because of the stage show showing him fight Zett during the New Generation Era (Before Crisis). But due to the Joneus scaling now it seems like there is a massive difference in strength between Base Zero and everyone else. And honestly I don't know if that seems right.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Wait, Pre-Crisis Zett is Low 2-C scaling from what again? And what do you mean by the power difference? How is it weird?

 

[Peter1129]

Pre-Crisis Zett is just Zett from the U40 universe. And we agreed a while back to just treat the Zett from the stage show and the one from UGF2 as having the same lvl of power.

This is the scaling if we treat the two Zetts as having the same power.

Base Zero (Reiwa Era) > Joneus (Reiwa Era) >> Joneus (New Generation Era (Before Crisis)) = Zett < Tri-Strium Taiga (Full Power) > Tri-Strium Taiga (Weakened) = Imit Belial = Full Power Base Belial (New Generation Era (After Crisis)) (Baseline Low 2-C)

Joneus from the Reiwa Era would be massively beyond the Joneus from Before Crisis and Base Zero scales above Reiwa Joneus via fighting both Belial and Tregear while Joneus got his shield destroyed by just Belial.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Huh, okay. Yeah, this looks fine.

 

[Peter1129]

But honestly I feel like the main problem here is just the UGF2 Zett scaling to Low 2-C and not Joneus scaling to Zett. Cause thinking about it now the whole fight between Zett and Tri-Strium Taiga kinda reminds me of Ruebe vs Ultra-Dark Killer he deflected some attacks but was still essentially stomped by Tri-Strium Taiga. So like should Zett even scale to Tri-Strium Taiga and therefore Low 2-C or should he just be considered 3-A?

Although there are some implications that even now Base Zero is massively beyond everyone else. Like in the behind the scenes for UGF2 one of the director (I think Sakamoto) said that Tartarus amped Belial and Tregear to the point where they can easily beat up the Ultra Brothers while barely using any energy. But they specifically showed the scene with Belial and Tregear beating up the out of energy Ultra Brothers after fighting Mold and Juda so we don't know if this is referring to them being able to beat them even if they were at full power or if they can only beat up the weakened Ultra Brothers casually.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

We can probably just stick to the current tiering we're already at, that being At least 3-A, likely Low 2-C if it's too vague.

I'd like to think interview statements and by extension databooks are clarifications on how some scenes could have gone in a different scenario. I'm betting that Sakamoto more than intended that the Tartarus amped Ultras would have been capable of taking on their share of the Ultra Brothers, exhausted or not.

 

[Peter1129]

I mean all the current Low 2-Cs are At least 3-A, likely Low 2-C since straight up Low 2-C isn’t accepted. So that doesn’t really change anything. And it just feels weird for Zero to be that much stronger. Cause like the difference between the two Joneus’ is huge. Like it’s literally two different eras rather than simply two series in the same era. We literally see Zero and the other Ultras grow thousands of times stronger from the Galaxy Crisis Era to the New Generation Era (After Crisis). So the difference between Joneus of Pre-Crisis and the Joneus of Reiwa should also be massive. That’s why I kinda feel like it’s best to just not consider Zett a Low 2-C. There’s also the thing with Zett being held back by Burning Brave Mebius and 80 off screen for quite a while. Like everybody else already finished their battle against the Zetton army and yet the battle between them was still going on.

True. Guess we’ll just have to see how strong they actually are in UGF3 or if another databook that comes out explains how strong they are.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

How did Zett fair against Joneus in the stage show? I mean, since UGF2 is where he's finally canonized on-screen, then I guess we should take the portrayal we have, even if they also acknowledge the previous Zett. For all we know, there may have been slight retcons. So yeah, he probably isn't Low 2-C in that case. A shame, but if there's that much contradictions or things not lining up, then the lowest end is the safest.

 

[Peter1129]

Joneus said he had to get serious against Zett. And after taking off his clothe/sash thing he started fighting Zett and even knocked him down once. After that they exit the stage and next time we see them on screen they were still fighting before Taiga and Titas joined in to seal Zett with the Wise Man's Sword. And they did it after Joneus and Titas weakened Zett by shooting their beams. So overall yeah they were pretty even as even the dialogues also had Zett saying he was having a great time fighting Joneus who he considers to be strong.

Alright well the next best thing we can scale Zett to would be Burning Brave Mebius and 80. Both of whom scale massively above the New Generations base form due to being Ultra Brothers.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Uhh... well that's a problem. I guess it's as I've suggested, that we stick to a safer end and assume there's been retcons to the events.

 

[Peter1129]

So yeah I guess we should just scale Zett to Burning Brave Mebius and 80 so he's far far far stronger than 9,000x Baseline 3-A. Joneus being around this strong actually fits a bit more with what we have in the Before Crisis stuff where Final Form Greeza stands as the strongest 3-A of that era at 5,940x Baseline 3-A.

 

[Peter1129]

Also I say Final Form Greeza is the strongest 3-A of that era outside of Joneus but the strongest is actually more likely Shining Zero. The only problem is he doesn't have proof of scaling above Greeza in terms of actual numbers as all he has is an unquantifiable scaling chain.

Like this is the scaling chain for Base Zero in Before Crisis before adding on the 20x multiplier

=/≈: Equal to/Comparable to

>=/>≈: Slightly stronger than

>: Stronger than

>>: Far stronger than/Stomps

>>>: One shots/No sells

Orb Origin and Fusion Forms (Post-Training) ≈ Base Zero (Ultraman Orb) > Orb Trinity (Pre-Training) ≈ Seven (Ultraman Orb) >> Darebolic > Magata no Orochi >> Orb Origin >= Jugglus Juggler > Alien Gapiya Sadis > Zeppandon > Thunder Breastar Orb > Base Victory (Ultraman Orb) ≈ Base Ginga (Ultraman X/Ultraman Orb) >≈ Mold Spectre w/ Greeza Dark Thunder amp >≈ Knight Victory ≈ Exceed X >> EX Monsters (Ultraman X) (>>>180x Baseline)

And this is the scaling chain for 2nd Form Greeza before adding on the 33x multiplier via the Dark Thunder Energy amped monsters it absorbed

2nd Form Greeza >> Ginga (Ultraman X) >≈ Mold Spectre w/ Greeza Dark Thunder amp >≈ Knight Victory ≈ Exceed X >> Dark Thunder Energy Amped/EX Monsters (Ultraman X) (>>>180x Baseline)

Zero clearly has a much larger one and in actuality he probably scales way higher than whatever times baseline I have him at in the sandbox right now. Like we even have Orb's strongest form Orb Trinity in the scaling chain. And that's completely unquantifiable as he has absolutely no statements on how strong that form is in comparison to everything else.

So yeah Final Form Greeza being 5,940x baseline 3-A probably isn't the actual highest value of Before Crisis outside of Joneus. It's just the highest quantifiable value of that era. So Joneus might not actually be the strongest Ultra during Before Crisis.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

I was just casually thinking about it earlier and I kinda confused myself. Is Reiwa Era Zero exactly the same power level as a full power him during Omega Armageddon? How I got here was because during OA, we know that Zero had to resort to Ultimate Zero in order to fight against Belial during which they were evenly matched until Belial somehow got the upper hand, and then in Taiga he fought Imit-Belial who had Belial's power during his last peak, in Base form.

Do we ignore that or can it potentially be used as a way to at least bump him and relevant characters higher up the scale? I personally think it sort of makes sense, since throughout Geed, and Ultra Zero Fight as well now that I think about it, Zero had to repeatedly rely on his power-ups to even the playing field. And now in a time when he's considered the strongest Ultra in the Land of Light and beyond, he again no longer needs it until Tartarus.

 

[Peter1129]

We currently treat Reiwa Era Zero as far beyond Omega Armageddon Zero (aka After Crisis Zero). And Imit Belial is the very reason why Zero and so many others are Low 2-C right now. We decided that Tri-Strium Taiga and Tregear should scale to Imit Belial just like Base Zero. Which is why we have so many more Low 2-Cs now.

And if you mean will it bump anyone up higher in 3-A than no. Most of the characters that scale to Low 2-Cs are already scale higher than Ultimate Zero from the After Crisis Era in 3-A.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Yeah, I was 9nly referring to the Low 2-C end. That's neat, but wouldn't that logically make those who scale around 20x if we agree on Imit-Belial = Omega Armageddon Belial = Ultimate Zero since we also agreed that Belial technically tanked the Bomb while exhausted? Or is it because it's also unquantifiable and kind of unusable to say they could've tanked it normally hence them just being notably above baseline?

 

[Peter1129]

Why would they 20x baseline Low 2-C? Omega Armageddon Belial is only baseline Low 2-C. Omega Armageddon Base Zero isn’t Low 2-C as it was Ultimate Zero that fought and barely lost to Belial who is baseline Low 2-C scaling from the bomb. So at that time only Ultimate Zero scaled to Low 2-C with Shining scaling above that unquantifiably.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Ah, yeah that makes sense.

 

[Peter1129]

So new episode of Ultraman Trigger and GRF Voice Drama is out.

I have to say today’s episode is a bit of an improvement over the previous episode. Like the tone and feeling of this episode is just overall a bit better than last ones but it still doesn’t feel that good at least in comparison to episode 3. Like Dagon retreating because of Yuna’s slap just feels weird. It feels like they are just setting up Dagon doing something akin to helping the humans or something at some point. And honestly I don’t know how I feel about this as it just feels kind of out of no where. Like was there anything at all that was hinting at Dagon being interested in humans before or did he really just feel interested all of a sudden because of Yuna’s slap and a small talk and fight where he isn’t even trying?

And ahh yeah the GUTS Wing was just in a flashback about Sizumu Foundation. TPC didn’t actually appear. But yeah the problem is overall the story still feels kind of messy and missing a lot of details. And there isn’t anything that really stands out in any of the episodes.

Like by episode 5, Ultraman Z at least had Juggler returning and transforming into Zeppandon in a rather cool sequence. And there’s also the whole Sevenger face memes stuff. So far Ultraman Trigger doesn’t have anything that is meme worthy or leaves a lasting impression. Overall this episode is kind of just like the first a kind okay 7/10. Hope the next episode or the one with Z returning will have something that really stands out.

And anyways in the new episode of GRF Voice Drama we now learn that Neos in the New Generation Era (Before Crisis) is at least comparable if not superior to Post-Training Ribut. And Shisa of GRF is said to be equal to Neos.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Yeah, definitely an improvement over #4. Though on Darrgon, I thought it was fine. And my assumption was that, he already had a sort of interest or was actually left with an impression by humans back then as well and Yuna just so happened to bring that back. If anything, I thought Akito being there was weird because his character goal was solved the moment he appeared instead of carrying on until he thought of the resolve to stand up to Darrgon.

But yes, still not too much long lasting stuff from Trigger so far. Best were still the fight scenes, but even that I also found some shortcomings.

 

[Peter1129]

True. I guess that part with Darrgon did make some sense and yeah the later part with Akito did feel weird. But do you think there’s a chance that Darrgon will help the humans at some point? Cause I’ve actually seen quite a few people on Tieba making theories that Darrgon will be betrayed by Carmearra or Hudram due to his personality description revealing he’s just a guy who wants to have a good fight.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

I'm also theorizing that Darrgoncs arcs could go either him betraying the other two or doing a last minute heel-face, but if there's anything I'm confident about, it'd be that all his routes leads to doom. So it's gonna be a sad conclusion for him no matte where he ends up. Though to properly answer that, it's very likely he will.

 

[Peter1129]

Yep sounds about in line with what I was thinking. No matter what route Darrgon chooses he’ll still end up dead and we’ll probably feel bad about it.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Let's just hope they'll all be fully fleshed out by the time we get there. Given the list of directors who could potentially get time to work on episodes where they might appear, I guess I could feel a bit more at ease.

 

[Peter1129]

Yeah same here.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

I'm still hoping Darrgon will do what Anti/Gridknight did, but that might be not possible

 

[Peter1129]

Ultraman Trigger September episode titles along with a short descriptions of them have been revealed in Chinese.

 

[Kisaragi_Megumi]

Ultraman Trigger September episode titles along with a short descriptions of them have been revealed in Chinese.

What's the name of the title and show us the descriptions

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Had to rely on GT, and of course it's bunk. But from what little sense it actually made, 7 is Barossa, 8 is Powered Dada, and 10 focuses on Darrgon. If it was translated and I interpreted it right, Sakamoto seems responsible for 9 and 10, which would be weird. Also, wow, Dada.

 

[Peter1129]

Episode 7: INTER-UNIVERSE
Alien Barossa the 4th and a young and new variety of Zandrias. (Barossa’s partner)

Episode 8: I think this roughly translates to Reproductive/Multiplicative Invasion?
Electric Equipment Malfunction (Powered Dada)

Episode 9: The Wing of that Day
Yuna and Mitsukini’s story

Episode 10: Swaying Heart
Yuna and Darrgon’s story

Episode 9 & 10 are handled by Tsujimoto.

 

[Mr.Cutlery]

Oh, hell yeah. I trust Takanori. If not for groundbreaking character developments, at least they'll be consistent enough for him to work with. Plus, he has actual experience dealing with characters during early seasons; X and RB comes into mind.

 

[Peter1129]

Btw references are required for profiles now.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/important-a-new-rule-about-references.122935/

So we’re probably gonna need to add references to the abilities that are not obvious on all the profiles. And all the profiles on our sandbox also needs to be updated with references now. Though I personally suggest waiting to see how others implement it first as it seems like there are problems with the references if they are in a tabber.