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The Ultra Series Discussion Thread: Unleash! The Power of Imagination!

Okay, now what the hell is this databook? Because that was convenient that you just found that. Not that it's upsetting. Do we also know what the multipliers are for forms from Spacium Zeperion to Thunder Breastar? That said, looks like we're back to millions of times baseline, it seems.
 
I just found it on the Ultraman Orb thread made by that one guy who makes compilations for all the other Ultras and notable monsters. Couldn’t find it last time when I searched it through Baidu but than I remembered I could just search on his subreddit thing on Tieba and search titles only and I found it.

And no there was only a multiplier for Orb Trinity and nothing else.
 
But yeah with that I think we have a rough estimate of almost every single New Generation Ultras strongest form.

Ginga Victory scales above the Ultimate Aegis which is an at least 10x boost. Could actually be lower if we factor in the fact that we don’t know how strong Zero got after the events of Ultraman Saga coupled with the interview saying Ultimate Aegis is just a many times boost.

Beta Spark Armor Exceed X is an at least 80x boost due to being Exceed X a many times (At least 4x) boost + Beta Spark Armor which is stronger than Hybrid Armor which is an at least 20x boost scaling from Final Form Greeza’s monster absorption.

Orb Trinity is more than 3x and therefore an at least 4x boost.

Ultimate Final is greater than Symbol of Geed which is all of Geed’s forms combined so Royal Mega Master (25x) + Magnificent (5x) + other three forms (At least 3x) = 33x

Groob is 20x Ruebe who is more than 4x Rosso and Blu (At least 5x) so Groob is a 100x boost.

Tri-Strium Taiga is a completely unknown boost.

Delta Rise Claw is also an unknown boost.

Glitter Trigger Eternity is also an unknown boost.

Reiga should scale to Super Taro which is a tens of times (20x minimum) boost.

So yeah judging from this I think Orb probably has the strongest base form among the New Generation Ultras. Which makes sense as pretty much all his forms are borrowed power so the boost shouldn’t be that big. So if he wants to keep up with the rest who have huge multipliers his base needs to become stronger.

Edit: Also uhh apparently Photon Earth Taiga is noted to be many times stronger than Base Taiga. The 2x seems to be talking about his punching power being about 2x stronger than Base Taiga’s punching power but overall the boost is actually many times not 2x.
 
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Which boost was more commonly and consistently used for Ultimate Aegis' boost? Because that would be awful if it was really lower. Getting it bonked down to 10x was already bad enough like damn.

Still though, are we really gonna consider these boosts as equal by the time it's past their series? Mostly because of Orb being strongest in base, which while not unbelievable, feels weird. Then again, that's due to me believing Ginga and Victory to be superior, which hasn't seem to have much basis ever since past X.

It probably would be fair to consider Tri-Strium higher than Photon Earth's boost now that we know its number and the fact it's portrayed as qualitatively superior.
 
Well the current 10x multiplier we use is via scaling from Armored Darkness but technically this might not be correct as it was Pre-Ultraman Saga Base Zero that was twice as strong as Kaiser Belial. Zero went through the events of Ultraman Saga and went through even more training in order to get used to his new forms Strong-Corona and Luna-Miracle so his base is likely even stronger than it was at the time of Killer the Beatstar. Meanwhile the many times is an actual stated boost from an interview and it makes a lot more sense as we saw Strong-Corona Zero was also able to somewhat keep up with and hurt Kaiser Darkness Belial as well as clash in a brief beam struggle that ended with him losing.

Well this is how I see the forms and the multipliers. The boost are still indeed the same if these are natural forms and armors that they can assume or wear like say Power Type and Ultimate Aegis. However forms that are assumed through the use of borrowed power shouldn’t have the same boost as it was at the time of their series. This is shown with Orb’s fusion forms all being comparable to Orb Origin with the exception of Emerium Slugger and Orb Trinity after his training made his base stronger.
 
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So this means that Armored Darkness boosts post-Movie 2 Belial by 10x, who the 3x boost SC Zero just barely matches and is equalled by Ultimate Zero? This... is quite the snafu.

Actually yeah, in the case of Orb, his initial forms, maybe possibly bar TB, all seem roughly comparable to Origin so it makes sense.
 
No Armored Darkness is a tens of times (At least 20x) boost. We currently scale Ultimate Zero to half of that (So at least 10x) due to half power Base Zero during the events of Killer the Beatstar keeping up with Jean-Killer who is stronger than Kaiser Belial. But this is us ignoring the thing with Zero likely getting even stronger after the events of Ultraman Saga and Ultra Zero Fight. Basically

Kaiser Darkness Belial is at least 20x stronger than Kaiser Belial. Belial can't grow stronger at this point as he's been dead.

Ultimate Zero is currently treated as 10x Base Zero and is about equal to albeit slightly stronger than Kaiser Darkness Belial.

Strong-Corona Zero is treated as several times (Japanese usage of several normally means 3-4x) stronger than Base Zero and is able to somewhat keep up with and hurt Kaiser Darkness Belial.

So based on this Ultimate being 10x Base doesn't seem that consistent as a boost that is at minimum 3x to Base was enough for Zero to hurt and briefly keep up with Kaiser Darkness Belial. Which shows that the gap between Strong-Corona and Ultimate might not be that big.

And yeah that's currently how I treat the forms. With the exception of borrowed power forms like Orb's fusion forms and Zero Beyond directly being shown to grow weaker as their base form grow in power all the natural forms should keep their multipliers. Orb's form as I explained are all treated as comparable after his base got stronger. And Beyond went from Zero's strongest form when he was weakened to just a power up form and weaker than Shining after he regained his full power.
 
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So this basically means instead of continuously being a massive boost, Zero's training closed the gap between his base form and Ultimate Form's? Aw, that's awful.
 
No I mean the Ultimate forms multiplier was probably nothing as big as 10x like we assumed. The many times (At least 4x) stronger statement from the interview might actually be more consistent.

I personally believe that the multipliers for armors (Ultimate Aegis, Beta Spark Armor, and etc.), natural forms/evolutions (Type changes, Shining, Ultimate Final, etc.), and fusions (Super Taro, Ruebe, Groob, etc.) don't change. Only borrowed power forms (Orb's fusion forms, Zero Beyond, Geed's fusion forms, and etc.) multipliers change as it is clearly shown that they do indeed change as their base forms grow stronger.
 
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But yeah I think I'll go and update sandbox with the new many times multiplier for Ultimate and Photon Earth later. Need to finish up my homework that is due tonight.
 
It said in his profile and wiki

  • Beam Negation: Grimdo has the ability to negate an Ultra Beam and absorb its energy, seemingly without taking damage.
 
That's when Taiga blasted Grimdo with the Aurum Storium, right? It might be absorption only since there's nothing indicating the effect of the beam was cut down plus the fact that Grimdo was already shown to be far superior to him and the RB brothers meaning high endurance was part of the equation. That said, I haven't seen the Taiga SCW in full yet.
 
I’ll see if there’s any mention of negation or whatever in the Taiga SCW. Can’t check right now. Though Grimdo does seem like it has absorption of some kind when facing Photon Earth Taiga.
 
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Also great news the Hudra 4-A nebula calc has been evaluated by Mitch.

vsbattles.fandom.com

Ultra Series "Calc" - Nebulous Nebulas

vsbattles.fandom.com vsbattles.fandom.com

We can now add 4-A onto the profile for Heisei Era characters. And I’ll be updating the blog with my sandbox after I change the Ultimate Zero and Photon Earth Taiga stuff.

Edit: Also took a quick look through the Taiga SCW. The images are really blurry and parts of it were cut off so I couldn’t really read much. But I don’t think I see any mentions of power nullification. They only seem to mention its eye being able to absorb things. Which we already know as it was able to absorb the explosion from Aurum Strium as well as Tregear.

Edit 2: Also here's how Part 1 of the Miscellaneous Revisions CRT will look. What do you guys think about it so far? Also I'm gonna go update the scaling sandbox now.

Miscellaneous Ultra Series Revision Part 1

Multiplier Changes

Basically, I recently learned that 何倍も (Nanbaimo) actually means many times rather than several times. And since the definition of several is "more than two but fewer than many," the statements that use many times would be considered a 4x boost rather than a 3x times boost.

And another problem with the multipliers we currently use. In Japanese, although 数倍 (subai) is considered several times and at least 3.

数十倍 is actually only considered 20x on the low end not 30x. It’s actually really just the equivalent of our tens of times which is 20-99x.

So all the current 数十倍 (sujubai) multipliers are actually 20x multipliers at minimum not 30x.

Also the multiplier for Ultimate Form is currently tens of times scaling from Kaiser Darkness Belial being tens of times Kaiser Belial due to Armored Darkness being a tens of times multiplier. However the actual multiplier for Ultimate form probably isn’t as big as I originally thought. As it turns out I recently found out that Ultimate Zero was noted to be many times (At least 4x) stronger than Base Zero from an interview with a director in 2010.

And upon further inspection I realized that Base Zero was actually shown to be able to keep up with and trade blows with Jean-Killer who is stronger than Kaiser Belial while having his power halved by the fog surrounding the inside of Beatstar's planet sphere thing. And this was before the events of Ultraman Saga where Zero unlocked Strong-Corona and Luna-Miracle due to fusing into Saga with Dyna and Cosmos which lead to him going on a training journey in Ultra Zero Fight 1.

So Zero likely became even stronger than he was during the events of Killer the Beatstar before facing Kaiser Darkness Belial in Ultra Zero Fight 2. This is further supported as Strong-Corona Zero who is several times stronger than Base Zero was able to somewhat keep up with and hurt Kaiser Darkness Belial who is noted to have combat power on par with Ultimate Zero.

So based on these info the multiplier for Ultimate should be changed from tens of times 何十倍 (At least 20x) to many times 何倍も (At least 4x).

Low 2-C Scaling

So currently only Reiwa Era Zero scales to Imit-Belial who is in turn on par with the original Belial who is Low 2-C for surviving the Super-Dimension Eradication Bomb. But thinking about it now quite a few others should scale to them. Like we see Tregear and Tri-Strium Taiga fight Imit-Belial and Base Zero and neither of them were completely inferior to the point of getting stomped. Originally I thought neither of them would scale to Zero or Belial because we see Base Taiga using the Plasma Zero-let overpower an attack from Tregear.

And originally I assumed that the bracelets only hold a portion of an Ultras power as that was the case with all previous Ultras when they borrow another Ultras power. But we later on learn in the Taiga movie that the bracelets actually seem to be the complete power of an Ultra as after returning the bracelets to the New Generation Ultras they regained their power to transform once again. This would mean that it wasn't a portion of Base Zero's power that overpowered an attack from Tregear but rather it was his full power or at least close to his full power. Which means Tri-Strium Taiga and Tregear do fully scale to Base Zero and Imit-Belial and should also gain a likely Low 2-C.

And because the two of them scales this would mean all the New Generation Ultras in their strongest form should scale as they are all shown to be comparable to Tri-Strium Taiga and each other. This would be the lvls of Low 2-C in the series and the characters that scale to it

Baseline Low 2-C: Base Belial (After Crisis), Full Power Ultimate Zero (After Crisis), Full Power Shining Zero (After Crisis), Base Zero (Reiwa Era), Luna-Miracle Zero (Reiwa Era), Imit-Belial, Full Grimdo Tregear (Reiwa Era), New Generation Ultras strongest form (Reiwa Era), Showa Ultra Brothers (Reiwa Era), Delta Rise Claw Z, Beliarok, Plasma Zero-let, Woola, Fusion Baraba, Destrudos, Grimdo, likely Greeza (Ultraman Z), and possibly Joneus (Reiwa Era) and Alien Barossa II

3x Baseline Low 2-C: Strong-Corona Zero (Reiwa Era), Zero Beyond (Reiwa Era)

4x Baseline Low 2-C: Ultimate Zero (Reiwa Era), Shining Zero (Reiwa Era)

16x Baseline Low 2-C: Ultimate Shining Zero, Absolute Tartarus

20x Baseline Low 2-C: Reiga, Super Taro, King, Noa, Legend, Delacion
 
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Welp new episode is out and all I have to say is. Bullton OP pls nerf lol. Like for real Bullton pretty much sealed Base Zero via hax for like quite a few episodes and now we see Delta Rise Claw Z also getting taken out by its hax. That's two Low 2-Cs that have been defeated by Bullton's hax. Also the pirate/treasure hunter argument and treasure flexing between Alien Barossa IV and Ignis was hilarious. This episode is just filled with great humor. It's been ages since I laughed this much at an episode of Ultraman. Oh right also Beliarok has Dimensional Travel. Anyway I would probably give this an 8.5/10. Nothing too amazing happened but it has just been a really fun episode overall.

Also seems like Powered Dada is gonna hack the world and be the one to force Z into Delta Rise Claw. Man Dada has been getting some nice treatment in the New Generation Era. Defeated a weakened Zero Beyond in Ultraman Geed and now Powered Dada is the one to force Z into his strongest form.

And in the newest episode of GRF we got to know more about Kenis who is actually more of an infiltrator rather than a fighter from the looks of it.
 
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I'm just going yikes seeing how low the scaling has gotten over time now, but otherwise it looks fine.

And yeah, Bullton's mad haxx0r. I'm honestly surprised they used it again, hopefully the site and SCW gives further info about it this time because they can't keep getting away with it. Beliarok being able to travel dimension on his own isn't too surprising given what we know he could do, but that also brings the possibility of him helping Haruki open a portal back to their universe.

Also, Carmearra is literally just Nagatoro here. And Darrgon is awfully silent. Wonder how that would play out.

I think Dada is just having his full potential realized as a resource user in addition to his own strength. Still, it does make him really formidable and that's fine by me.

Also I forgot to mention, but should be obvious now, that Z should have resistance to space-time manipulation. Not because of Bullton but for literally being filled with Zestium energy which was used to stabilize the D4 ray in the first place. I don't know how I missed this.
 
Yeah quite the downgrade for the Low 2-C scaling. Although personally I still believe that Shining Zero is about on par with fusions like Super Taro and Reiga with Ultimate Shining being far above them. Cause like we don’t know how big the gap between Ultimate and Shining is other than that one interview about Zero being the strongest Ultra during the Ginga S Movie and therefore scaling above Future Cosmos who is 4x Eclipse Cosmos as Shining Zero.

Also question. Should we downscale characters from several and many times multipliers? Cause right now I realized that the scaling sandbox is stuck in a tight spot if we don’t downscale. Cause if we don’t downscale than Zero and those comparable to him would only be unquantifiably above 6x baseline while his Ultimate form is somewhere in the hundreds of times baseline even though now we learned that the gap between Base and the other transformations isn’t that big. But like the main problem is several times isn’t really a concrete multiplier I personally prefer to only upscale with it rather than downscale as the 3x for several is only a low ball. So I wanted to ask whether or not you guys think downscaling from multipliers without a concrete number should be used. Normally the upper limit for several in Japanese is just 4 while the lower limit is 3.

Yeah the Z SCW really dropped the ball this time for not giving any usable information.

Darrgon seems like he was still reminiscing the slap from Yuna.

Yeah I know though I could see some people raging because of Dada being so op.

Is that how resistance is supposed to work? Do you really gain resistance for producing and being filled with energy that can stabilize things like space-time?
 
The part on the scaling has since gotten rather twisty for me, but I think whatever seems fine in your judgement can work. I'm not a fan of these massive changes, but the best we can do is to remain transparent about our changes.

People are mad about Dada? Well, I guess I can see where they're coming from when you remember that his first appearance had Ultraman playing a game of "no u" on him.

I think if your body is already filled with that energy and you can use it for offensive purpose as well as defensive, it should count? Or you want I should take this to Q&A?
 
Yeah scaling has just been getting really weird once the multiplier for Ultimate got changed. I guess I’ll only downscale things like Strong-Corona as the word several has an actual upper number limit unlike many in Japanese. I’ll see if I can make the scaling not look messy.

Well not really hate. The Chinese fandom in particular just feels so so about Dada for somehow customizing a Legionoid to the point where it defeated Zero Beyond even if it was a weakened Zero. Although this did make Dada a meme in the Chinese fandom. Like if Zero beats some really op enemy somebody in any other form will just go Dada is too strong since Dada defeated Beyond which was at the time Zero’s strongest form.

Yeah a Q&A is probably best for a question like this.
 
It also sucks how Royal Mega Master was outright stated to be 25x stronger than Primitive during the events of Ultraman Geed. Cause we know that Zero Beyond which was Zero’s strongest form at the time was weaker than Royal Mega Master Geed while his Base was stronger than Primitive Geed. So that essentially just locked Zero’s absolute maximum multiplier (prior to Ultimate Shining) as 25x. So no matter what Zero‘s maximum multiplier from Base to Shining cannot go above 25x.

Yeah Dada became a meme that when you bring up Zero losing they will always mention Dada. Also Dada beating Zero also became the prime reason for people downplaying Zero.

Alright good luck to you too.
 
I mean, how come we haven't tried working around this? We already know a lot of things have changed between Zero Era and the New Gen, so why don't we use multipliers based on Zero's appearance in Geed? Like what you showed there. How much of a boost is Shining right now if we're not using the Geed multipliers for Zero?

Feels like it'd get pretty annoying quick. But at least it's no Ultra fan wiki.

I've done it, hope it makes enough sense without having to resort to direct showings. I'm sure I made it clear enough.
 
Well, Dada for most in the part after his debut in Man series treated as a joke seijin, so seeing him and his other race getting a really good treatment make me feels grateful tbh
 
Thing is there aren’t really any multipliers for Zero during the New Generation Era. Heck there aren’t any stated multipliers for any of Zero’s forms but Ultimate and Beyond.

Luna-Miracle is an unknown boost all we know is that it somewhat boost Zero’s AP and gives a huge boost to Zero’s speed

Strong-Corona has the several times multiplier scaling from Strong Dyna

Ultimate is a many times multiplier according to a director interview in 2010

Shining is a complete unknown. All we know is that Shining allows Zero to stomp people that are on the lvl of Ultimate Zero. And from Ginga S we learned that the scaling between Cosmos and Zero is this

Shining Zero > Future Cosmos > Ultimate Zero > Eclipse Cosmos

So we sadly can’t even use the Future being 4x Eclipse multiplier for Shining as Ultimate Zero was stronger than Eclipse Cosmos.

And Beyond only has a all abilities are more than doubled multiplier at the time of Ultraman Geed. Which I honestly call bs as Ultimate alone is a 4x multiplier at minimum and Beyond at this time was supposed to be even stronger than Shining. Heck we even see Beyond shoot 8 beams via Balky Chorus. So Beyond only being at least 3x Base at the time of Geed is just total bs. In the current era that’s fine as it should be stronger than Strong-Corona but during Geed that just makes no sense at all.
 
I know there isn't any multipliers in the New Gen, I was just suggesting to use multipliers based on his showings in Geed. Like how Beyond was comparable to RMM, so shouldn't we consider the possibility that Beyond could have been a 20x boost instead by later and after Geed, with Ultimate being above that thanks to later portrayals showing it as being superior to Beyond?

Also, how come we don't consider Beyond as being stronger than Magnificent given the Zegan arc? Yeah I know he was also having some trouble with Zegan, but it's kinda undeniable he also pushed back both their beams after exerting more.
 
Well there’s a few problems with that.

The first problem being we saw that Zero Beyond wasn’t able to defeat a weakened Base Belial and also lost to Dada Custom Legionoid which was shown to be able to match him. And Royal Mega Master on the other hand defeated Chimeraberos who is essentially an amped Base Belial and also stomped Zaigorg who stomped Dada Custom Legionoid. The only time they were shown to be comparable was when they fought King Galactron together. So we essentially have two fights showing Royal Mega Master Geed being stronger than Zero Beyond and one fight showing them being comparable.

The second being I am pretty sure we can’t assume multipliers out of no where. Like scaling a form’s multiplier to another multiplier is fine. But assuming a multiplier out of nothing is definitely not gonna get accepted. Also didn’t we agree that forms where an Ultra borrows power shouldn’t have the same multiplier once an Ultras base gets stronger? In fact the boost should be smaller or completely insignificant as shown by Orb after his training treating all his forms with the exception of Emerium Slugger and Orb Trinity as comparable after increasing his base power.

But yeah Beyond is without a doubt stronger than Magnificent. But like all that means is Beyond is stronger than Magnificent and Zegan. So we know Beyond is at least 5x Base Zero which simply based on Shining being far stronger than Ultimate which is at least a 4x boost should be kind of obvious.

So essentially scaling wise during Ultraman Geed

Royal Mega Master 25x> Primitive

Royal Mega Master Geed > Chimeraberos > Base Belial >=< Zero Beyond > Shining Zero > Ultimate Zero > Strong-Corona Zero > Luna-Miracle Zero > Base Zero > Primitive Geed

Royal Mega Master Geed > Zaigorg > Dada Custom Legionoid = Zero Beyond > Shining Zero > Ultimate Zero > Strong-Corona Zero > Luna-Miracle Zero > Base Zero > Primitive Geed

RMM kind of hard sealed the upper limits of Zero’s multipliers (barring Ultimate Shining) at <25x. Even assuming they are comparable Zero‘s second strongest forms’ upper limits will still be locked at 25x Base. It cannot be anymore than that.
 
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Okay, minor observation, but notice how in both cases of Bullton, the thing is unresponsive to being taken off as weapons. But the moment they get tossed towards an Ultra, they immediately respond by opening up a wormhole.
 
I'm considering removing Ultraman's resistance to reality warping and spatial manipulation. Unless it was confirmed in a magazine?
 
Yeah kinda weird how it only opens up the worm hole when being tossed at an Ultra. The other time it as tossed at STORAGE it only made a weird dimension.

I dunno. Did Ultraman have resistance to it because of Bullton? I thought he just did some kind of spinning thing that made Bullton’s feelers which it uses to do reality warping things explode?
 
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