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The Ultimate Annihilator Revision Part 2 + Extra

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Perhaps it would be best if Matthew doesn't continue to post in this particular thread, and starts a new discussion later instead then.

Anyway, what is left to do here that regards the actual main relevant subject matter?
 
Antvasima said:
Anyway, what is left to do here that regards the actual main relevant subject matter?
Click to expand...
DDM has expressed uncertainty when it comes to SWATbots and Robotnik scaling. However, DDM has also believes Archie has the same conditions as Marvel and DC, when there were only 2 main writers of all of Archie’s 20 years, while there has been multiple writers for Marvel and DC’s 50 + years of publication.

DarkDragonMedeus said:
And I didn't mean it's quite the same level, but it does share some notable problems which includes multiple writers doing their own things.
Click to expand...

I wish Archie Sonic isn’t treated like DC and Marvel for multiple reasons.

Ian never wrote Robotnik to not scale to Sonic or not scale to anyone in the Base Cast, unlike Marvel, when street tiers logically can’t scale to Thor, due to its world building and character set up.

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/794931728652697600/image0.jpg

Even in IDW, Ian is still writing Eggman on par with the Cast.

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/794931808239747072/image0.jpg


Ken Penders’s writing of Robotnik vs Sonic during his run was never contradicted writing wise by Ian Flynn.

There is also the fact it’s easier to keep track of Archie Sonic’s Canon from a writing aspect, when it mainly has 1 or 2 books being published once a month, rather than the multiple separate books(10?) that are published in DC and Marvel in the same month, taking place in the same story.
 
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If I could name 2 real outliers in Archie Sonic, it would be:

1. Base Sonic making Enerjak flinch

2. Perfect Chaos powered by the Super Emeralds fighting Super Sonic. That whole fight in general, actually.
 
ElixirBlue said:
DDM has expressed uncertainty when it comes to SWATbots and Robotnik scaling. However, DDM has also believes Archie has the same conditions as Marvel and DC, when there were only 2 main writers of all of Archie’s 20 years, while there has been multiple writers for Marvel and DC’s 50 + years of publication.
Click to expand...
The second writer straight up said he doesn't consider most of the early feats canon and Ken Penders is infamous for ignoring everything other writers did.
 
Antvasima said:
Perhaps it would be best if Matthew doesn't continue to post in this particular thread, and starts a new discussion later instead then.
Click to expand...
Matt. Go. Away.

You saying so many wrong things but you don’t acknowledge when you’re wrong so I don’t wanna bother debating you.
 
You derailed my thread for the longest time and never acknowledge any mistakes or apologized. Why should I respect that?

There’s no point in me debating you if you don’t even accept when you’re wrong about something, so why should I continue trying to debate you? I don’t even know your current stance on things that you’ve been corrected on.
 
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It may be best if Medeus decides what the best solution here should be, so we can close this thread, and Matthew can start another one later.
 
I'm ok with anything Medeus decides, even if it has to result with closing the thread. I want to salvage it with a staff member but I understand if it can't in it's current state. (I acknowledge how much of child I seem to be acting towards Matt. I make no excuse for that)
 
Matthew_Schroeder said:
I am sorry but you are not staff and you don't get to decide what I give my opinon in. You are being extremely disrespectful in not even accepting me giving my own opinion.
Click to expand...
Yet the staff keep telling the same thing as him, for you to stop derrailing with your jabs and go make your own thread
 
No problem. I do not blame you for being frustrated about the derailing.
 
To be fair, I don't quite blame anyone either. And I was talking more so Archie comics in general, not so much Archie Sonic specifically. But if there's only 2 writers, I suppose some inconsistencies can be hard to swallow.

But at the same time, I do recall most of the crazy feats happen Pre-Genesis wave; the Low 2-C and casual Tier 4 feats. Eggman being potrayed is physically comparable to Sonic seems inconsistent or contradictory to him normally using mechs for most of his fights. Also, is there proof that all mobians are considered equal to Sonic? I know Sonic and Knuckles are very strong, but not sure about every Mobian.

Anyway, I think it's pretty much very skeptical for any verse that mass produced characters who fight in large groups to be considered on par with peak conditioned protagonists. And it's a very common standard that the stronger the protagonist is, the more anxious we need to be when it comes to them scaling to mooks and trooper type characters.

But I don't really have much thoughts. I know Executor was considerably more knowledgeable on the topic, but he left debating Sonic a while back. But does anyone know of any other staff members who may be interested?
 
The Freedom FIghters (Outside of Bunnie) are portrayed as very incompetent and hopeless without Sonic specially in the first 50 issues. They don't even have any power like super strength or speed in themselves.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Eggman being potrayed is physically comparable to Sonic seems inconsistent or contradictory to him normally using mechs for most of his fights.
Click to expand...
I once agreed with this, as I also once thought this was inconsistent.

Till you realize outside of the Egg Mobile, Eggman/Robotnik never fought Base Sonic in a Mech, till issue 175!

The first Mech suit Eggman wore was the Eggs-O-Skeleton, which Sonic had to use Silver Sonic as suit to fight on par with. (Sonic Quest issue 3)

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/794994216082210856/image0.jpg
https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/794994216605974568/image1.jpg
https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/794994232036556870/image0.jpg

When Eggman became a Robot, Base Sonic can’t even hurt Robotnik like he could when Robotnik was Organic. (Issue 75 & Issue 118)


https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/794994244359815178/image0.jpg

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/794995339642929182/image0.jpg

Then Issue 175 happened, the 1st time Sonic in Base fought a Mech, the Egg Beater, Sonic can’t hurt the Mech all with his regular Spin Attacks he has been using the entire Comic. He ultimately had to rely on his Freedom Fighters and the Chaotix to destroy the Egg Beater, with their own unique abilities (Issue 177).


https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/794994563860398080/image0.jpg


https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/794994598367068220/image0.jpg

The 2nd time Base Sonic fought a Mech, the Egg Phoenix, Sonic didn’t even attack it, but he follow Sally’s plan to defeat it and it was stated before Sally’s plan that Eggman was winning. (Issue 198)

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795001253066833930/image0.png

The 3rd time Base Sonic fought a Mech, the Egg Tarantula, yes, Sonic beat it, but Sonic also noted it’s not the same as the Egg Beater. This was also the time Eggman was losing his mind. He completely loses his sanity after this fight is over. (Issue 199 & 200)

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795001915498037248/image0.png

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795026555650834482/image0.jpg

The 4th time Base Sonic fought a Mech; the Egg Tortoise, we get no scaling from this but Sonic admits he was holding back. Eggman completely lost his mind at this point. (Issue 205, a few panels later, Eggman punches Sonic in face that made Sonic take a moment to recover)


https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795002489714901032/image0.jpg

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795027549066625024/image0.jpg

The 5th and Final time Base Sonic fought a Mech, the Death Egg Robot, Sonic completely has no way of fighting it, other then transforming into Super Sonic. Eggman has recovered his sanity at this point. (Issue 229)


https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795003395164864542/image0.png


So, no, in terms of Archie verse Lore, I can't find Dr. Julian Ivo “Eggman” Robotnik scaling to Sonic in his Organic Base form inconsistent.
 
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DarkDragonMedeus said:
But I don't really have much thoughts. I know Executor was considerably more knowledgeable on the topic, but he left debating Sonic a while back. But does anyone know of any other staff members who may be interested?
Click to expand...
That, I do not know. I asked him but he isn't interested in giving input.

That, and it seems he didn't know how consistent Robotnik's scaling is.
 
@Executor_N0

We would appreciate your help with evaluating this thread.
 
Ok, I'll take this time to also talk about another consistency in the Robotnik vs Sonic scaling.

Rage Power

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795400477688463400/image0.jpg
https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795400453276958760/image0.jpg

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795400462479392769/image0.jpg





In the Comics, there are various times Sonic displayed his Rage, and each time, he has displayed more power than he has normally shown. There is 3 notable times his rage has been in a fight, when his fighting Robotnik.

Sonic Super Special Issue #6

Sonic the Hedgehog Issue #74

Sonic the Hedgehog Issue #175

The most famous and well-known display of his Rage was issue 175, when he damaged the Egg Beater with Rage the 2nd Robotnik never saw before. A clear increase of his power.

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/794994563860398080/image0.jpg
https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/794994598367068220/image0.jpg
https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795408037829017632/image0.jpg
https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795408102316441600/image0.jpg

The 2nd example back in Issue 74/75 stays consistent on this. When Sonic is calmed (Or rather, not filled with rage), he couldn't even fight Roboticized Robotnik

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/794994244359815178/image0.jpg

But earlier, when Sonic was fighting Roboticized Robotnik, he was able to fight him. Sonic is filled with rage at this point, greatly implying Sonic's Rage increased his power.

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795411464256356382/image0.png

However!

It's important to note Sally's and Antione's dialogue. Antione equals Sonic's anger from the Hallway during Endgame, which surprises Antione, as Sonic's light heart nature was nowhere to be seen.

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795419663793651712/image0.png

The battle in issue 74 was also the 2nd Robotnik's first time seeing Sonic's anger that equaled hallway-angry Sonic. So of course the 2nd Robotnik would be surprised seeing Sonic's Rage giving him more power than he has ever shown before issue 175.

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795418599052673054/image0.jpg

Nobody, not Antione, Bunnie, Snivley, the 2nd Robotnik or anyone else in the verse ever saw Sonic's Rage at the end of the Endgame Arc.

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795422262638411786/image0.jpg
https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795422535562166292/image0.jpg
https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795400453276958760/image0.jpg
https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795422557901291550/image0.jpg

Wait Wait Wait, wouldn't the 2nd Robotnik be aware of this fight?

There is completely no evidence Sonic ever told anyone how angry he was during this fight (his cool image to maintain) and no one was there to watch it.

The 2nd Robotnik doesn't even share the same history as Prime Robotnik, as he was unaware of Krudzu's existence (issue 1 & Free Comic Book day issue 4)

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795424643166634034/image0.jpg
https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795424647046627389/image0.jpg
 
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Ok, Elixir. Are you implying that Robotnik has the same durability as the Egg Beater? That is too much of a stretch, even from you.

No, because Robotnik got damaged in their fight while Sonic put his all into one attack that only dented the Egg Beater, which Sonic has never put his all into one attack before.

However, Organic Robotnik is comparable to Roboticized Robotnik, as they were trading blows that one shotted Roboticized Snivley.

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795426836099760198/image0.jpg

Roboticized Robotnik that tanked a "calm" attack from Sonic while Roboticized Snivley was helpless (Consistent)

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/794995339642929182/image0.jpg

Organic Robotnik has no combat scaling to a "calm" Sonic, other than giving up in issue 230.

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795428202750148618/image0.jpg
https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795428214138208296/image0.jpg

Also, looking again at both of Sonic's Enrage fights, he was definitely shown to deal more damage to Organic Robotnik than Roboticized Robotink.

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795422557901291550/image0.jpg
https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795411464256356382/image0.png


The 4th Rage Robotnik vs Sonic fight

Now, there is nothing to take away from this, but I might as well bring it up. It's not too notable for scaling because Robotnik only deflects Sonic with the new moves he has learned and the 1 hit Sonic gets in 1-shots the 3D Holographic solidifier. (Issue 157)

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795429883102101504/image0.jpg
https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795429942820995112/image0.png
 
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Every single time Sonic fights Robotnik it's a low-showing for Sonic my guy.

"HEre's a bunch of low-ends this must mean that fat guy is Low 2-C."
 
And that's all I want to bring up for the Sonic vs Robotnik scaling throughout Archie Sonic Comics.
 
That is a lot of feats to ensure Robotnik being able to fight toe to toe with Sonic. So I can agree with Eggman being on par with Base Sonic.

But as for Matt, he can make a thread for the Base Sonic level characters after this content revision.
 
If this thread isn't about character scaling and just the ultimate annihilator then discussion about robotnik scaling and Sonic scaling should just be taken to another thread and this one be closed since the primary thing of this thread seemingly got accepted.
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
If this thread isn't about character scaling and just the ultimate annihilator then discussion about robotnik scaling and Sonic scaling should just be taken to another thread and this one be closed since the primary thing of this thread seemingly got accepted.
Click to expand...
It is also about character scaling (+ Extra)
 
GiverOfThePeace said:
So I'm confused then why was everyone saying derailment was happening earlier?
Click to expand...
Cause Matt wanted to talk about the entire verse's scaling, rather than Robotnik's scaling. But I assume he also thought Robotnik scaling to Sonic was heavily inconsistent and heavily filled with outliers as he assumes the verse also has, which is why he derailed for so long.



So, does anyone want to prove the Robotnik vs Sonic scaling is inconsistent or...?
 
ElixirBlue said:
Cause Matt wanted to talk about the entire verse's scaling, rather than Robotnik's scaling. But I assume he also thought Robotnik scaling to Sonic was heavily inconsistent and filled with outliers as he assumes the verse also has, which is why he derailed for so long.



So, does anyone want to prove the Robotnik vs Sonic scaling is inconsistent or...?
Click to expand...
Ah alright.
 
Further Examples of Sonic's Rage Power on display for consistently:

Getting mad at seeing a Mobian in the process of being Roboticized like his Uncle Chuck.
https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795448897165328384/image0.jpg

Getting tagged by Sally and pinned down by Bunnie, only to overpower them as his fury rose.

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795448939549163520/image0.jpg
https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795448939829788762/image1.jpg

Overpowered a group of SWATbots,

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795448968171487242/image0.jpg
https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795448974995357706/image0.jpg

when a group of SWATbots before overwhelmed him when he never before this point experienced Rage.

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795450562317385778/image0.jpg

I believe Post Genesis continues this Rage Subplot in its own way with the Werehog, as Ian stated there were plots he wanted to do in Pre-Genesis that he can no longer do.

https://media.**********.net/attachments/487862970521616385/795452012568510495/image0.jpg
 
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I do agree that Eggman should be relative to Base Sonic.
I also agree with the addition of Rage Power to Sonic's abilities.

However, y'all should just move this to another thread. Specifically Matt.
 
XD no.

Wait, is that what you wanted to do by derailing my thread this entire time? Ignoring DDM and Ant to go somewhere else or to stay focus on the thread for some stupid Concession thing?
 
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