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The time has come: Yogiri vs Touma REDUX

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So you agree that he will be shocked. Since speed is equalized him being shocked or trying to negate the effects will indeed leave him open to an attack from yogiri which is capable of taking out athletic human level characters. I don't see how that by any means prove touma will be unaffected or would completely disregard the fact that a part of him is missing. In that quote it quite obviously shows that touma was indeed effected and the reason why the shock wasn't really included is because his thoughts fell into chaos and were effected. Hence why the subconscious motion was in use. He couldn't think straight. I don't see how this is the same as him quite literally having a part of him die anyways the point of him subconsciously or consciously moving to erase ID just leaves him open to a slash.
The sword isn't supernatural but ID is again that doesn't really go against the point being made at all. The point was that ID acts as a diversion leaving touma up for a strike. Him having an ultra instinct like ability won't save him from this. He is limited to one hand in an instance where he is going against a character who can read movement and can see the levels of hazard. And you lack evidence on how the hazard reading is going to be negated besides the false equivalence being made.

Although yogiri isn't a master in said field his skill shouldn't be discredited he is capable quite literally seeing the movments of an opponent who has an odd body formation after evading a capable of attacks. He doesn't need to be a master the point is if his swordplay is mixed with his precog and ID he will win. His precog like you quite literally stated is only against supernatural things. And you also said that he subconsciously moves his hand to head. Why wouldn't this leave him susceptible to a slice that can very well kill him based on both profiles? I never said he always needs to put his hand on his head I simply said like you said he will subconsciously put his hand there in order to negate the ID. And let him get back to his normal state. This means he will be required to put his hand on his head mid fight since it's subconscious and he can't really stop himself. Him punching him with that hand can be avoided anyways yogiri is able to read the moment of his opponents like he did against the monkey. He doesn't even really need to get close since his sword should have better range than his CQC.
Maybe not from the arm but that's still a false equalivence since you're comparing x ray vision to seeing a the percentage of a hazard. The rest of his body which IB doesn't encompass will still be read. IB will be busy subconsciously touching his head.
 
Malox1696 said:
btw nobody explained on how , once they are in CQC, yogiri is gonna kill touma once the sword is not there, he is athlete lvl which can "hurt" touma but he can take a lot of punishment as he has been used as a punching bag by people of up to 6c category and keep fighting with multiple fracture and shallow stabbing wounds
Click to expand...
Uh so Touma can take attacks from island level characters?
 
TheMonsterOfTheAbyss said:
If he keeps his right arm on his head that will just open him up for precognition going by that IB nulls its own trajectory.
He can kill his lower half, he's already done it since the beggining since it is still quite vague, if he dies naturally out of the pain and shock that has nothing to do with supernatural death of instant death. I am sure Touma won't die because of that tho since he can take a lot of punishment. The petal thing is talking about being far more specific that half death, lol.

Also, if anything the sword should fall on optional equipment since Yogiri has already owned it for a prolongued period of time.
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yes it does that's why indirect causes that leads to affecting his right hand get negated it's even on the profile (robbing his lungs of his oxygen has nothing to do with his right hand and it's still negated)

no it's not cause he literally ditches it the next chapter and is back going out unarmed and if by prolonged period of time u mean 1-2 chapter well time to give hamazura the dragon raider suit,the processor suit and the power lifter as standard equipment
 
Robbing his lungs of his oxygen does not sound like an indirect cause. Do you have the excerpt? It just sounds like it's 100% supernatural nothing like causing shock or pain through an ability.
 
Next chapter: Tomochika, Carol, and Ryoko go with him who are far more skilled with the sword and they are going to catch someone who already knows knows about Yogiri's power so there is no need to bring the sword (yes because at the end of the day the sword is far more ineffective than DIE)

Nice skipping context.

He already had it for like a week, using it to train and for his few visits in hell and is likely still using it while in the presence of his classmates.
 
Oh yeah and I am pretty sure that Touma won't die from pain if he can take punishment from 6-C characters as you said, so in that case it would work regardless.
 
I initially thought that Touma would win but after reading the arguments I'm leaning towards Yogiri. Yogiri FRA
 
TheMonsterOfTheAbyss said:
Oh yeah and I am pretty sure that Touma won't die from pain if he can take punishment from 6-C characters as you said, so in that case it would work regardless.
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is less take and more like not die

"After saying that, Acqua swung his mace without hesitation.
As a member of God's Right Seat, and also a Saint, it was a devastating strike released by a monster.
The boy's body hanging on the mace flew off the metal bridge at a cannon-like speed, through the handles, colliding several times with the dark and icy surface of the water several hundred meters away. As it was too fast, the boy's body bounced 2 to 3 times before sinking beside a cruise boat, causing the river water to pop up like a water pillar"

he was in the hospital after, we don't know how much he was holding back tho

"The patient transport bed's wheels let out *kacha-kacha* sounds, and numerous paramedics were surrounding the patient's bed as they move along, the loud sounds outside could be heard inside. The paramedics who had been busy pushing the patient's bed left the rest to the doctors and nurses. After that, the doctors and nurses all gathered in the centralized treatment room before disappearing behind the large doors of the operation room.
"…Finally managed to complete the operation. To be honest, I can't say whether he can still be considered safe,""
 
I was asking for the excerpt and I simply said that it didn't sound like what was being stated to me. But the excerpt would or possibly could change my mind. It doesn't matter anyways the points that were repeated still stands. Idk what people are saying "touma fra" for all of the points haven't been brought up again. There was a short repetition and in the end it was halted. I still don't see how touma is beating yogiri in cqc at all when the means of victories weren't refuted.
 
You realize he would still be taking an attack of soemone who is at bare minimum 1.23x10^15 times stroger than he is, right? Besides that excerpt you sent definitely makes it seem like he took quite the damage, so yes, he should be able to survive the pain of losing the lower half of his body to ID.

So the problem of him dying from the attack becomes non existent.
 
SoulRebell said:
I was asking for the excerpt and I simply said that it didn't sound like what was being stated to me. But the excerpt would or possibly could change my mind. It doesn't matter anyways the points that were repeated still stands. Idk what people are saying "touma fra" for all of the points haven't been brought up again. There was a short repetition and in the end it was halted. I still don't see how touma is beating yogiri in cqc at all when the means of victories weren't refuted.
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they were refuted u just can't accept it
 
> They were refuted you just can't accept it

> No you were refuted you just cant accepted.

> No you were refuted you just cant accepted.

> No you were refuted you just cant accepted.

Ect. Why would you even bother to reply with the most pointlesly loopable comment?
 
At this point this is a jk u refuse to even try to read the profile much less taking the novel up, I read both

And deny any point I try to bring
 
We don't straight up deny it. What we do is be normal and explain why a point shouldn't be considered. That's the biggest part about it, the "why". We don't texas sharpshoot to things we want to reply to and not address some points then act like we already addressed them like someone on this thread think you know who I am talking to. This is getting quite off topic but anyways I don't see why touma's votes should be considered when the arguments being made for him we refuted by not 1 but 2 people. And the one person who is being fra'd to is ignoring arguments completely.
 
Reading both novels gives you no privileges, especially when 90% of this talk has been about Yogiri's arsenal... not to mention you straight up just refused to acknowledge some counter arguments by saying "you haven't proven anything" instead of actually trying to debunk them.
 
Yea 2 people that just straight up say " I don't wish to belive how IB works nor read the profile or get more info" great arguments guys
 
Ok, tell me where I said that. I legit acknoleged that if Touma died it would get nulled but simply worked around that because you yourself said he could take a lot of punishment so I argued that Touma would not die, not that IB does not work like that. Get it straight before trying to claim I said something such as "_______".
 
>IB will not work on precog cause precog does not interact with it but at the same it will interact by sensing the danger coming from it

>IB will not negate his death when targeting specific parts cause even tho we know multiple examples of abilities targeting touma part that would lead to a bigger effect (like robbing oxygen, stopping hearth, etc) cause ID can, and does not even Matter that this argument would lead to a stomp, cause I don't care

>obv ID can be used on specific parts without affecting him whole and killing him even tho the main character of the novel is LITERALLY training to remove that problem and has still not achieved it

Totally not denying everything and only making assumptions on assumptions and deny how the other ability works
 
> Reponse given by myself: No, it most likely reads the information of the environment considering one can merge hazards together if set up correctly as opposed as Yogiri detecting two separate hazards of two different individuals, as it should if it read the individual's information. If it nulled its trajectory it would make it stand out due to causing the given trajectory to dissapear when there should at least be a sort of background radiation that always darkens the enviroment around Yogiri because there are always little possibilities of hazards.

> My response: Targeted ID will not lead to Death (or as you reworded it now "Bigger effects").

Note: Creating an opening on Touma's guard = stomp now? Touma can still cure himslef by touching his lower part and you know that, this would just create an opening for Yogiri since Touma has the experience advantage and can fight armed opponents like you said.

> My response: Half deaths are possible, and I said since the beggining that even without overly specifc ID Yogiri could still target it. Taking your claim for ture (which i disagree with) and saying that he "BARLEY STARTED AND NEEDS MORE TRAINING"; he is training for killing far more specifc things like ankles, or something that which usually leads to a misfire if done normally as I have already said several times but you kinda never replied to it.


How this is "I don't wish to belive how IB works" is truly beyond me.
 
Your only reason on why IB would be able to negate it is comparing it to x ray vision which makes absolutely no sense and fiamma's ability which has absolutely no correlation. Like what was stated it doesn't matter if he can sense the hazards coming from IB alone it doesn't change the fact that he will see the hazards coming from anywhere else on his body and simply avoidng this. You are just repeating points we already addressed. And It's honestly baffling that you continue with this. I said IB can negate the death but the fact that he needs to place his arm in areas leaves him open to damage. This is facts like it not. Subconscious or not he will have to deal with the loss of his sense. This once again leaves him open to yogiri who has street tier ap with his sword to kill him based on touma's durability in his profile. Denying such is quite foolish.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
What are the arguments here?
Click to expand...
Yogiri:

  • Precog that would allow him to read Touma's movements ahead of time instead of just in the moment before, and he uses it to not only evade but to strike with certainty where he wants to strike.
  • Armed with a sword with which he has some training with and is noted as skilled while using even if he is not a master swordsman or whatever. So extended melee range slicing force vs standard melee range blunt force.
  • Capable of killing Touma's senses (vision, hearing, that stuff), and broad parts of Touma such as his lower side or left side. Arguably capable of killing more specifc parts as he has said that aiming for specific parts had served to train his ID accuracy and moments before he killed a petal off a rose. This is more as to create openings on Touma;s guard to kill or incap him with his sword.
  • Capable of killing the enviroment for stuff like buildings to fall on Touma although this would only be possible if they get near or in a building, othewise just killing things parts of ground where touma may fall or lesser things such as light posts.
  • ID things are thought based and can be done in relativley quick succession.
  • Fate protects him from dying, but not from an incapacitation.
Touma:

  • IB nulls ID from being used normally, or in a way that will supernaturally lead in a domino effect to Touma's death. In addition to this Touma can null the death of his senses or parts as well but he needs to be touching the corresponding part of his body or touch it after having it killed.
  • Precog that allows him to predict the physical movements of the opponent a moment before they do them.
  • More experience fighting close quarters.
  • Capable of fighting people who are armed without being armed himself.
  • Durability advantage and AP advantage if one does not count Yogiri's weapon.
  • Capable of taking a lot of punishment.
  • If Touma is touching something with Imagine Breaker before Yogiri kills it the effect will be nulled, but if Yogiri kills it before Touma enters in contact with it the effect won't be nulled as it already ended.


I think that is about it,
 
Ap advantage or durability won't do much at all tbh. The Sword has superior range and ap than touma. And the sword has superior ap than his durability which means a fatal blow should kill him. Based on the discussion touma doesn't have any experience with someone like touma who like him can read movements, hazards, and create diversion with instant death. The argument being made for touma is that he can subconsciously negate ID effecting his eyes or ears by touching it. But the problem with this is that he leaves himself open and he only has his arm without the IB to defend himself. The arm without the IB quite literally won't do anything to yogiri he will get cut and ultimately die. Also yogiri's precog is capable of foreseeing things hours after the present. I don't really know how touma's precog his above yogiri but apparently touma's precog works on supernatural stuff. While that would work on ID the sword itself isn't supernatural. Yogiri's precog works for everything and he is capable of reading body movements during fights. From what I know yogiri's precog is better than his and can be used as means to counteract touma's.
 
To add Touma coming in contact with him with IB even once would remove his ability permanently as it not natural in origin like mana or esper (see touma profile for more info)

IB would be exempted from precog (and probably anything touch IB but let's low ball)

Can pick up anything as weapon on the ground or use his own clothes to remove the sword by disarming (he is capable of blocking a giant mech with them)
 
He should surely be able to counterattacking even if Yogiri uses his blade, since he has more experience fighting people with weapons, even if he was unarmed. His precog should keep him from landing any fatal blow off.
 
IB can still be read through normal means just like he did to the mutli arm'd monkey though. And the hazard precog will be capable of reading everything besides IB which means the parts that aren't going to be busy trying to negate the death of his eyes or senses will be foreseen. I dont see how picking up a random item would compare to someone who has an actual sword meant for fights and is trained in it. Yogiri simply needs to not be touched by IB which is logical since IB will in this situation subconsciously deal with the death of other parts of himself. What do you mean he is capable of blocking giant mech with them? You mean his clothes or random things on the ground in central park. What would he find in central park that will be capable of outmatching someone with japanese sword that can read his movements?
 
Yogiri can foresee where he is going to move tho and counteract that. Experience is useless if you fighting someone that is like no other opponent. Which is the situation here unless there's an excerpt that proves otherwise. I don't see how any of those touma fought are like him. The sword is just how he is gonna take him out the death diversion and the precog are some of the biggest factors here.
 
I read the profile stuff that touched on imagine breaker, where does it say it permanently removes an ability after contact? The closest thing that I could find is blessings and but those involve some other being giving something to another being. I recall him punching accelerator, did accelerator lose his ability permanently after that?

If his clothes can take several tiers higher power like if they were armor then you should need to make a CRT to edit his profile for that. Besides, I do not think using clothes as shield is as practical when fighting someone of your own size.

Anything on the ground like what? It's central park. Rocks? Yogiri can just kill them when thrown and almost anything else for close quarters is nowhere near as effective as an actual weapon.
 
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