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The outcome is the same ignoring the 2-B buff though?Oblivion Of The Endless said:
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The time has come: Yogiri vs Touma REDUX
- Thread starter Oblivion_Of_The_Endless
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PhantomØ4
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Putting the matter of IB aside since I do not know about that, the claim that Yogiri cannot kill anything other than organs and whole body is incorrect. He killed the lower half of the guy trying to assault him and Tomochika, did the guy end up dying regardless? Yes. Was it because Instant Death misfired? No. It was because killing half of the body instantaneously is naturally deadly.Malox1696 said:
As far as I recall from when I read the old thread there was an argument about the ankle that Yogiri couldn't kill but you really can not compare how precise he has to be to kill an ankle vs killing the entire lower half of someone and the deaths were different, in a misfire the guy just died instantaneously, in the lower half the guy screamed in pain and then perished which was followed up by Yogiri's comment of "Yeah losing half of your body sure sounds deadly". So in any case those would be natural causes.
The petal thing was also excused by saying that he is still training for it, but he clearly can replicate the effects with a little bit of concentration (maybe not 100% of the time but he can simply try again since ID is thought based and won't take much time).
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or even more simply, touma, by the time yogiri realize that his ability does not work directly on him , is already much closer to him and simply beats him up in cqcAccelerate420 said:
or yogiri tries to gain distance and uses the environment by the time touma is halfway there, but touma has just to touch his target to negate the effect so if touma is touching the building it can be "killed"
and again how many people did yogori encounter that negated his power ? 0
touma instead is capable of understanding the power of his opponent , as shown with his multiple fights, and ID is nothing new , he would just call the ability unfair
PhantomØ4
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All the examples you are giving are not only non deadly but virtually harmless... unlike a punch, which even if one is holding back to not kill will still cause damage if one wants to incap someone. If anything the lines would just appear lighter than normal since the lines appear darker depending on how much danger there is in that zone of he stays there. I actually just remembered that his vision darkened when he first entered the barrier of the Sword Saint due to the misma, which where he was would have only resulted in him having nausea and loss of balance until he got closer to the source where then it would have resulted in death. So that whole black and white way of viewing his precog does not really work.
Yogiri cannot reproduce the effect 100% of the time with certainty. If he failed his target would have died and they would have failed to find Ryosuke and then he would have probably successfully escaped, and Yogiri probably knows this himself so I do not see how asking for help = he cannot do it (I'm already claiming that he cannot do it 100% of the time when he tries as well). The difference here is that if he tried and failed he would just need to try again because there would be no real drawbacks.
Yogiri cannot reproduce the effect 100% of the time with certainty. If he failed his target would have died and they would have failed to find Ryosuke and then he would have probably successfully escaped, and Yogiri probably knows this himself so I do not see how asking for help = he cannot do it (I'm already claiming that he cannot do it 100% of the time when he tries as well). The difference here is that if he tried and failed he would just need to try again because there would be no real drawbacks.
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that's the point, it works only if it's a threat to his lifeTheMonsterOfTheAbyss said:
and again IB would be immune to precog , probably he himself too as IB is his right hand but let's low ball here
no he actually never showed it if he can do it, he only said he started training , u keep saying the same thing
PhantomØ4
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No, it workd based on danger. The darkest lines are lines of death which represent... well danger to his life. Lighter things on his point of view still exist as I said before with the miasma.
Why would Touma negate the effects of Yogiri seeing hazards as a from of shade % system? You said that it is because something dupernatural would be coming off Touma's arm but that is just Yogiri's view of the world. Nothing really is coming out.
And you have not reallydebunked it you just respond with the fact that he has not mastered the technique of focusing it to minor areas so he cannot do it at all, which by the way still does not affect my statement of killing lower part or left side because they are far less more specific than an ankle.
Why would Touma negate the effects of Yogiri seeing hazards as a from of shade % system? You said that it is because something dupernatural would be coming off Touma's arm but that is just Yogiri's view of the world. Nothing really is coming out.
And you have not reallydebunked it you just respond with the fact that he has not mastered the technique of focusing it to minor areas so he cannot do it at all, which by the way still does not affect my statement of killing lower part or left side because they are far less more specific than an ankle.
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Accelerate420 said:
So touma doesnt react to shock at all? Like he loses his vision and hearing from nowhere and he doesnt even budge in confusion put IB in the head and procced to continue as if nothing has happened? Also yogiri can just keep killing it while he attack swith his sword
Also yogiri said himself that targeting something like eyes and ears its easier for him since its not the whole limb
And why IB would negate touma death if yogiri kills his lower half of his side of the body that has no IB? His death has nothing to do with IB power but with suddenly losing all those body parts at once
I also would like to ask since i'm no Toaru expert why did othinus was able to kill IB thing when she wasnt a magic god? She is unknown in that tier so why we are assuming for 100% sure that he has the High 1-C durability? Didn't aiwass also deal with it or was he in Full power ?
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cause if u use x ray vision if supernatural on touma he would not get registered, same for auto valuation system of the HR of Fiamma which could not really adjust to the right amount of power to beat touma cause IB messed up the valuationsTheMonsterOfTheAbyss said:
in his vision at least IB and more likely touma would not really give off any shades or lines and his action would create none
no u are the one that is not proving anything , especially when he says he still needs training and still does not do it, and we know for fact that before he could not do it, urs are just assumption
if we go by ur logic IB now would work in an area as touma is trying to found out more about his right hand and same for IT/dragons
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1 not first time someone does something similarEdenSux said:
2 his action are very instinctive with his right hand, to the lvl he moves subconsciously
for the same reason stopping his hearth, blocking his oxygen intake, targeting nervous system, swapping soul, etc did not work
she was always a MG she was just stuck at 50% chance of success or failure and touma is unlucky (thanks to IB and for real as shown int he last volume) she won the coin toss , any action she takes can splendidly backfire in that form
aiwass was at full power x 10 thank to the blasting rod, and he didn't destroy IB, the stream of power was just too much to negate all at once and was pushed back, it's in the weakness section of IB : Despite being able to negate more powerful attacks, Imagine Breaker can have issues negating powers that are able to regenerate or are receiving a constant supply of power if they are faster than its canceling speed.
touma FRA
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Yogiri FRA
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Instant Death FRA
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@MALOX1696 huehue
- Can you bring an instance where touma was completely unaffected and not confused about why his vison or part of his body is considered disconnected for lack of a better term? Although he moves subconsciously that doesn't really prove that things like losing his vision don't shock him. I am quite ignorant of touma but from what is being stated touma has zero advantage in close combat other than his subconscious reaction. The ability to use ID on parts which touma would based on your words subconsciously negate via his arm and this allows yogiri to kill him with his sword. And before one states yogiri doesn't use ID along with his sword, he has been shown to do so. Touching his head makes it so touma is limited to one arm while in a close distance yogiri can't be touched by touma based on his precog and his combat skill as been shown he was capable of grasping an opponent's moment just by evading a couple of their attacks. All in all touching his hand will still cause a problem for him. Also none of those are like seeing the percentage of a hazard. Quite illogical to compare it to fiamma's ability and x ray vision.
PhantomØ4
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I do not know why you are being all suspicious when Touma has 2 or 3 voters that bareley have been active in the wiki and that posted like 2 months ago for the last time, which implies they came only for this thread. But I do not wanna derail this thread that way. Instead I will contribute.
@Malox:
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I have actually found the claim that Yogiri has not done anything and barely began practicing iffy since the beggining but I had not bothered to check until now. Yogiri already demonstrated the ability to kill semi broad since before but you keep replying with "training training training" when first of all the training that he would be looking for is far more specific (killing an ankle or something similar which cannot be compared to half of the body, like at all, and secondly he does quite a lot know when he is pretending to kill monsters in hell with his classmates. So please stop with the " urs are just assumption". I will even bring the petal thing that you keep bringing up and saying "debunked last thread, stop" abd point out a few things that you are clearly overlooking.
Literally a demonstratio:
"Ah, I'm not thinking about trying to fight with fencing alone. What I'm saying is that, if I concentrate my power and apply it like this. Watch." (Yogiri)
That said, Yogiri pointed his finger at the vase on the table.
There was a red rose inside of it.
As everyone looked over to it, a single petal lightly fell from the rose.
"This is?" (Carol)
"I tried to experiment with my ability when I was with Tomochika before. At the time I didn't think that there was much of a point to it, but recently I remembered that it'll be a necessary tool to have in order to get information out of that Sage." (Yogiri)
Tomochika remembered the situation he was talking about.
Yogiri's ability was way too strong. So much so that it's usefulness can be limited. Therefore, he tested out whether or not he was able to use it while taking it easy on somebody.
At the time, the results were horrifying.
Half of the body dying and killing the person is not a misfire but a natural reaction to it:
The target would generally just die when even one part of the body abruptly stopped functioning.
Back the, it was just troublesome that there wasn't very much benefit in using it as a threat.
One of the reasons Yogiri did not do it himself (Ryoko and Carol do not like Yogiri being proactive with the use of his ability) since you again keep bringing up the "why did he need help then":
"No, uh… I don't think you need to be using it so readily though." (Ryōko)
Ryōko spoke, her face slowly tensing up.
At any rate, she was afraid of Yogiri. She didn't want him to be proactive about using his ability.
Yogiri comments about how practicing in hell BY LITERALLY doing it has been effective:
"I think it's been effective to practice aiming at specific parts of my opponent's body while going through the motions of swordplay." (Yogiri)
The fact that he practices by putting it to practical use, that he already considered the training to have been effective and moments before displayed the abiity to do it, and was all willing to go and do use it agaisnt someone is >>>> "IB now would work in an area as touma is trying to found out more about his right hand and same for IT/dragons" and also, that was a very nice false analogy fallacy
Oh by the way, yeah, this is quoted from where you supposedly said last thread to Eden, "Cue he STARTED training for that, he even mentions it", and to me, "no u are the one that is not proving anything , especially when he says he still needs training", I even Ctrl + 4'd it and I could not find anything about Yogiri saying he just started in the contrary he said it had been effective. So I would really appreciate if you could get the part where he says "I just started, I need more training" or something akin.
"cause if u use x ray vision if supernatural on touma he would not get registered, same for auto valuation system of the HR of Fiamma which could not really adjust to the right amount of power to beat touma cause IB messed up the valuations"
So if I understood correctly you compared it to something which is trying to evaluate the power to beat IB, so it is a pretty direct interaction with it, and supernatural X rays, where the X rays would need to travel through Touma at which point they would be nulled at contact... I suppose you can see where this fails to really hold up?
Is there an argument which I overlooked?
I just put my reply like that to save up space since it is kinda long.
@Malox:
Hide/Show
I have actually found the claim that Yogiri has not done anything and barely began practicing iffy since the beggining but I had not bothered to check until now. Yogiri already demonstrated the ability to kill semi broad since before but you keep replying with "training training training" when first of all the training that he would be looking for is far more specific (killing an ankle or something similar which cannot be compared to half of the body, like at all, and secondly he does quite a lot know when he is pretending to kill monsters in hell with his classmates. So please stop with the " urs are just assumption". I will even bring the petal thing that you keep bringing up and saying "debunked last thread, stop" abd point out a few things that you are clearly overlooking.
Literally a demonstratio:
"Ah, I'm not thinking about trying to fight with fencing alone. What I'm saying is that, if I concentrate my power and apply it like this. Watch." (Yogiri)
That said, Yogiri pointed his finger at the vase on the table.
There was a red rose inside of it.
As everyone looked over to it, a single petal lightly fell from the rose.
"This is?" (Carol)
"I tried to experiment with my ability when I was with Tomochika before. At the time I didn't think that there was much of a point to it, but recently I remembered that it'll be a necessary tool to have in order to get information out of that Sage." (Yogiri)
Tomochika remembered the situation he was talking about.
Yogiri's ability was way too strong. So much so that it's usefulness can be limited. Therefore, he tested out whether or not he was able to use it while taking it easy on somebody.
At the time, the results were horrifying.
Half of the body dying and killing the person is not a misfire but a natural reaction to it:
The target would generally just die when even one part of the body abruptly stopped functioning.
Back the, it was just troublesome that there wasn't very much benefit in using it as a threat.
One of the reasons Yogiri did not do it himself (Ryoko and Carol do not like Yogiri being proactive with the use of his ability) since you again keep bringing up the "why did he need help then":
"No, uh… I don't think you need to be using it so readily though." (Ryōko)
Ryōko spoke, her face slowly tensing up.
At any rate, she was afraid of Yogiri. She didn't want him to be proactive about using his ability.
Yogiri comments about how practicing in hell BY LITERALLY doing it has been effective:
"I think it's been effective to practice aiming at specific parts of my opponent's body while going through the motions of swordplay." (Yogiri)
The fact that he practices by putting it to practical use, that he already considered the training to have been effective and moments before displayed the abiity to do it, and was all willing to go and do use it agaisnt someone is >>>> "IB now would work in an area as touma is trying to found out more about his right hand and same for IT/dragons" and also, that was a very nice false analogy fallacy
Oh by the way, yeah, this is quoted from where you supposedly said last thread to Eden, "Cue he STARTED training for that, he even mentions it", and to me, "no u are the one that is not proving anything , especially when he says he still needs training", I even Ctrl + 4'd it and I could not find anything about Yogiri saying he just started in the contrary he said it had been effective. So I would really appreciate if you could get the part where he says "I just started, I need more training" or something akin.
"cause if u use x ray vision if supernatural on touma he would not get registered, same for auto valuation system of the HR of Fiamma which could not really adjust to the right amount of power to beat touma cause IB messed up the valuations"
So if I understood correctly you compared it to something which is trying to evaluate the power to beat IB, so it is a pretty direct interaction with it, and supernatural X rays, where the X rays would need to travel through Touma at which point they would be nulled at contact... I suppose you can see where this fails to really hold up?
Is there an argument which I overlooked?
I just put my reply like that to save up space since it is kinda long.
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After reading the whole thread, I'm kinda leaning towards Yogiri but not gonna vote
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again he did it on a flower and by "I think it's been effective to practice aiming at specific parts of my opponent's body while going through the motions of swordplay."
he literally means using the sword to target specific parts, or we would have a lot of dead students and teacher at the training camp, and trough that training he is trying to apply it to his ability
and it's obv he still didn't master it or try it as he did not use it when it was needed in the next chapter against the sniper or Ryōsuke and had to rely on other to restrain them
and again this is all by low balling IB negation as we know that only some spell that are target work on him while other got negated without even needing to touch the related part
and if yogiri is not human like the spoilers are trying to imply IB would kill him by touch or at least remove his ability as it's not by natural origin (esper and mana are both refined life force and that is considered "natural" by IB standards)
Point would still stands for heat visions of supernatural origin, to explain so u understand, the line or haze point the danger zones or killing intent, but how do u know if X zones is dangerous ? it must take information from somewhere and when trying to intake those infos on IB it would simply fail as it's done in a supernatural way , that's why i said IT might work on touma himself but certainly not on IB
he literally means using the sword to target specific parts, or we would have a lot of dead students and teacher at the training camp, and trough that training he is trying to apply it to his ability
and it's obv he still didn't master it or try it as he did not use it when it was needed in the next chapter against the sniper or Ryōsuke and had to rely on other to restrain them
and again this is all by low balling IB negation as we know that only some spell that are target work on him while other got negated without even needing to touch the related part
and if yogiri is not human like the spoilers are trying to imply IB would kill him by touch or at least remove his ability as it's not by natural origin (esper and mana are both refined life force and that is considered "natural" by IB standards)
Point would still stands for heat visions of supernatural origin, to explain so u understand, the line or haze point the danger zones or killing intent, but how do u know if X zones is dangerous ? it must take information from somewhere and when trying to intake those infos on IB it would simply fail as it's done in a supernatural way , that's why i said IT might work on touma himself but certainly not on IB
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SoulRebell said:
- Can you bring an instance where touma was completely unaffected and not confused about why his vison or part of his body is considered disconnected for lack of a better term? Although he moves subconsciously that doesn't really prove that things like losing his vision don't shock him. I am quite ignorant of touma but from what is being stated touma has zero advantage in close combat other than his subconscious reaction. The ability to use ID on parts which touma would based on your words subconsciously negate via his arm and this allows yogiri to kill him with his sword. And before one states yogiri doesn't use ID along with his sword, he has been shown to do so. Touching his head makes it so touma is limited to one arm while in a close distance yogiri can't be touched by touma based on his precog and his combat skill as been shown he was capable of grasping an opponent's moment just by evading a couple of their attacks. All in all touching his hand will still cause a problem for him. Also none of those are like seeing the percentage of a hazard. Quite illogical to compare it to fiamma's ability and x ray vision.
Kamijou's thoughts fell into chaos.
Nothingness surrounded him.
Immediately afterwards, he realized what had happened.")
and then he would subconsciously move his hand to his head like ""Erase!!"
But no matter how many times she tried, nothing came of it. It was an endless spiral of memory erasure  dizziness  right hand to the head  confused look."
generally touma act on pure instinct and precog for supernatural attacks, that's why he can block lighting strike with peak human speed
again the sword should not even be on profile, it literally just an excuse and was used 1 time
Standard Equipment refers to a set of items that a character can be expected to have on hand at any time. When listing a character's Standard Equipment please consider the following guidelines:
- Equipment listed as standard should be equipment the character has access to in a majority of their canon appearances. This is not to be confused with Optional Equipment, which can encompass anything that the character has owned or made use of for an extended period of time, regardless of whether or not it's usually on their person.
and even with a sword touma can fight armed opponent as along as they are not in the master field, he fought people with guns, sword, saw etc , touma has the advantage in QCQ due to the experience and precog, he doesn't need to always stay with his hand on his head he if is close he can just punch him with it
as explained in the post above , the ability is trying to gather info based on IB to get the prediction and % that would be a supernatural way to get info from IB , that will not work
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I have a question, can Yogiri's ID kills touma eyes, ears, and some parts of the lower half at the same time? If so I'm gonna vote for Yogiri
If not then I vote Touma because of experience, precog, skills
If not then I vote Touma because of experience, precog, skills
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he can temporally kill his vision and hearing (if we low ball IB negation) until he touches his head with his right hand (or keeps his arm there), not his lower part or any body part (like arm head leg etc) as he still, at the point we have the translation (4.8), not showed to be able to do it without killing the target too
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Then I vote for Touma
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btw nobody explained on how , once they are in CQC, yogiri is gonna kill touma once the sword is not there, he is athlete lvl which can "hurt" touma but he can take a lot of punishment as he has been used as a punching bag by people of up to 6c category and keep fighting with multiple fracture and shallow stabbing wounds
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Just wondering, what if they have the same votes until now. When will grace start?
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If that keeps happening then we add as an inconclusive, but Touma seems to be winning atm and is closer to GraceMrDrProfessorPatricio said:
PhantomØ4
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Ryoko and carol had already offered their help at that point tho. Everything had been planned from before the moment with the petal and the conversation, and they'd rather not have Yogiri using his ability proactively.
The sniper would have dissapeared by the time Yogirir even got to where it was due to Type Sophora not leaving the evidence behind, and Ryosuke had already been incapacitated when Yogiri got there and was answering all of his questions out of fear due to the knowlegde he had, there was no real need for Yogiri to use it at any point so why are you tryong to force a conclusion based on that he did not use it?
Possibly but he really do not have enough information about that, that is why he does not have like any ability attributed to the vague super natural origin Aoi implied.
Even with heat vision the supernatural infrared radiation would need to touch Touma and then bounce back to the eye of the observer.
It is more like it intakes the information from the area and not from individuals since one can blend a hazard with another if timed properly with another hazard like Lain B out of coincidence. But if IB were to null its trajectory it would just create a clear path since there is always like "backround radiation" that darkens the enviroment for Yogiri.
The sniper would have dissapeared by the time Yogirir even got to where it was due to Type Sophora not leaving the evidence behind, and Ryosuke had already been incapacitated when Yogiri got there and was answering all of his questions out of fear due to the knowlegde he had, there was no real need for Yogiri to use it at any point so why are you tryong to force a conclusion based on that he did not use it?
Possibly but he really do not have enough information about that, that is why he does not have like any ability attributed to the vague super natural origin Aoi implied.
Even with heat vision the supernatural infrared radiation would need to touch Touma and then bounce back to the eye of the observer.
It is more like it intakes the information from the area and not from individuals since one can blend a hazard with another if timed properly with another hazard like Lain B out of coincidence. But if IB were to null its trajectory it would just create a clear path since there is always like "backround radiation" that darkens the enviroment for Yogiri.
PhantomØ4
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If he keeps his right arm on his head that will just open him up for precognition going by that IB nulls its own trajectory.Malox1696 said:
He can kill his lower half, he's already done it since the beggining since it is still quite vague, if he dies naturally out of the pain and shock that has nothing to do with supernatural death of instant death. I am sure Touma won't die because of that tho since he can take a lot of punishment. The petal thing is talking about being far more specific that half death, lol.
Also, if anything the sword should fall on optional equipment since Yogiri has already owned it for a prolongued period of time.
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