The time has come: Yogiri vs Touma REDUX

[SoulRebell]

Hence why I brought up the point that it's 50 meters away. Even if he were to be surprised in character he will understand not be shocked and stand while his opponent transverse dozens of meters to interact with him. The acceptance was just to show that he will be into shock or become scared just because his ability won't work. Fully Acknowledging something is going to happen sooner or later is enough.

 

[Kiet_Nguyen_Tuan]

KO Punch Touma FRA.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Ohh god, when this discussion end? I saw many people defending yogiri by saying that touma attack never hit him or IB cant negate ID. Remember, Touma had better cqc and he had no killing intent in character, this is not bloodlust battle. Also, IB is High 1C remember.
Also, I wonder did yogiri ever meet people that able negate or not die because his ability? Touma had experience against instant death attack & reality wrapping ability so he had more advantage here.

Nice, skipping the whole thread.

> Yes, better CQC experience and whatever.

> Yes he can negate ID but he has to touch the affected areas, no one here is really trying to argue at this point that ID simply kills Touma.

> Yes, Yogiri can still seee lines with no killing intent so that is irrelevant.

> Again, no one is trying to argue Yogiri just drops him dead.

You honestly did not tackle any real arguments done for Yogiri that stand and did not add anything for Touma.

 

[Inori_Hatsune]

Hence why I brought up the point that it's 50 meters away. Even if he were to be surprised in character he will understand not be shocked and stand while his opponent transverse dozens of meters to interact with him. The acceptance was just to show that he will be into shock or become scared just because his ability won't work. Fully Acknowledging something is going to happen sooner or later is enough.

I thought sba is either of them didnt know enemies ability at start. Yogiri accept that his ability not work to Touma means he had info about Touma ability at start. That not sba.


Okay, so this is my scenario:

1) Battle start, Touma runs > Yogiri thinks Touma death > not work> distance = 30-40m left.

2) Yogiri realized that his ability not work, think again Touma die still not work, 20-30m left.

or

Yogiri kill Touma lower half, Works but Touma Touch it via IB, 25-35m left. at this moment, Yogiri realize that Touma hand is main problem> tries to kill Touma right arm > huge fail > 15-25m left.

3) Depend on enviroment, open field will be huge disadvantage for Yogiri since killing ground means also make his feet unstable. Killing ground that while only seperated by 15-30m is bad idea since it will also affect ground bellow Yogiri feet). Even it succsed, Touma will able dodg it since he har experience against enviroment wrapping ability. 5-10m left.

or

Tunnel or building, Yogiri able to kill wall or roof so it will stops Touma runs. Then Yogiri runs & analyze how Touma ability works. At this scenario, this will make both of them had prep. Yogiri maybe wins so do Touma because they had prep.

4) Yogiri decides on cqc combat but Touma had huge advantage here, Yogiri kills Touma eyes, but Touma negate it, Yogiri make distance hoping he can find a chance. But since Touma had no killing intent to enemies in character, it will become normal highschool fight. Then, since Touma had better streetfight experience (he can beat 3 people at maximum in streetfight), he land punch to Yogiri. Yogiri faint.

In the end all comes from experience. I saw yogiri almost never faced someone whom immune against his insta death (correct me if I wrong). Even if he had. He mostly just think his enemies die and win. In opposite, Touma always struggles against his enemies even against normal human. This make Touma had better battle experience, analysis, and of course better awareness.

 

[SoulRebell]

Yes because precog and yogiri's sword isn't a thing. And somehow yogiri won't be able to hurt him while he is touching his eye or his lower half mid fight. Just because they aren't normal humans doesn't mean they can be compared to yogiri.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

50 meters doesn't seem like enough for him to start up any good plan to use on Touma after getting over the shock, especially as they are in Central Park and there's not a lot to kill and let it fall on him or whatever.

 

[YungManzi]

I mean he might not be that shocked.

Didn't he mention at some point that there would probably be someone who can negate ID in the future?

Or he expects it or something?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Like I said, expecting it doesn't change it being shocking.

Not to mention we are comparing two people here with precog at least on the same level. But Touma has much more experience actually fighting, and bucket loads of experience with magic - especially sudden effects that just happen on him or around him. Volume 2 or 3 when he wasn't at his best still already had him getting used to and precog-ing an invisible strike that happened suddenly.

 

[SoulRebell]

Yea no one was claiming he would cause things to fall on him. The claims were about CQC. 50 meters should be enough to realize that killing as a whole won't work.Include his precog avoding attacks while having superior range shouldn't be a problem.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

"He can also try to kill the enviroment to make a building fall into Touma or something"

"That could definitely work, and since Yogiri is protected by fate he wouldn't get injured."

"How would IB interact with an already collasping building? Would the building just put itslef back together? Is that like a thing where it negates damage cause by supernatural stuff? Like could he just touch a crater and it would magically fix itslef?"

Oh no, a lot of people WERE talking about this. Many of the votes were around when this was being brought up.

Superior range won't really matter much. Touma has much, much more experience actually dealing with stuff in close range, has stupidly high stamina and resilience, and being resourceful is pretty much 80 or 90% of his fighting experience. The moment he sees a sword, he'll start thinking of countermeasures or what he could do.

 

[SoulRebell]

I cosign none of that and I shouldve clarified. No one who is continuing on with said points. I thought that was comment was to me in which I would respond to it at all. Anyways I wasn't claiming it. Don't know why you had to cap the "were" seemed mad unnecessary kek. When someone says fra we don't know what exact reasons they are talking about.

Superior range does matter especially since this can be mixed with killing part of him as diversions if killing him as a whole doesnt work. Also precoginition that can foresee events hours after the present should allow him to use said range to his advantage. All people been arguing is experience but no one has explained how that experience will play into effect when diversions such as ending the mobility of touma and cutting him with potency that can very well kill him. Also reading the trajectory of everyone of toumas moves quite easily makes whatever counter measure he thinks read tbh.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Considering the main reasoning was Yogiri getting him like this and then later the CQC discussion got more direct, I do believe we can know exactly what they were about. At least these early ones.

Touma has already had to deal with battling people while magicking away magical effects. His precog is unconscious and more or less automatic, and he's gotten pretty good at just reacting fast and continuing what he was doing. This is also assuming Yogiri even tries it out after seeing it fail the first time.

Reading what Touma is gonna do is one thing, putting it into motion is another. They both have precog, but only one of the two has much more experience in actual physical fights, or much more experience as far as I can see in using that precog for CQC. Only one of the 2 also takes pretty lethal or debilitating wounds a lot and still keeps going... rather, has Yogiri ever been shown capable of appliying his precog to deal with people much better in CQC or to actually use it for physical combat?

 

[PhantomØ4]

@Inori

Yogiri does not need killing intent to see hazard lines so Touma having no killing intent is a null point, 9-C does not one-shot 10-A, Yogiri has the range advatage with a sword, Yogiri can combo with simple thoughts he won't be closing in the distance by 10 meters with every DIE yogiri gets out.Yogiri can kill his lower half, or left arm along his senses during close combat as well not only as he is closing in even if Touma is not shocked it will still be 1 arm vs Yogiri with a sword and precog (unless Touma has precog without senses), Yogiri can die consecutevley faster than Touma can go around touching his dead parts, buildings or bridges collapsing cannot only be used to not let Touma throught but they can be collapsed on top of Touma to incap or even kill him, Yogiri's ID can kill pretty precisley on areas so even if Touma was 2 meters away the ground beneath Yogiri would not be destabalized. While he has not fought opponents that are immune to his ID during the trips to hell with his classmates he does not use ID because he wants to conceal so he does have real combat experience so it is not like this will be his first ever fight without using ID along the fact that he is noted as skilled and a quick learner capable of grasping his opponents moves after a few repetitations and then dodging with the least movements possible (However, I am aware Touma is a skilled fighter). Besides that I will add my take on CQC based on yours.

5) Touma closes in on cqc range, Yogiri kills Touma's senses, Touma moves his right arm to his head negate it, Yogiri kills Touma's lower half, Touma nulls the death of his senses and then goes to null the death of his lower half as he cannot get closer without his legs, Yogiri swings his sword, Touma precogs the attack and moves out of the way but the lines had already shown Touma's trajectory after he precoged so Yogiri had swung along those lines to strike with certainty and he lands a hit like that, which may not result fatal. If it is not fatal something similar repeats a few times where in some cases Touma may try to throw things from his enviroment but Yogiri could just kill them and nothing in the environment is really that effective to use in a fight, trying to use something Yogiri killed as a weapon will just result in the weapon crumbling upon force being exerted upon it as the objects become extremley brittle.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Reading what Touma is gonna do is one thing, putting it into motion is another. They both have precog, but only one of the two has much more experience in actual physical fights, or much more experience as far as I can see in using that precog for CQC. Only one of the 2 also takes pretty lethal or debilitating wounds a lot and still keeps going... rather, has Yogiri ever been shown capable of appliying his precog to deal with people much better in CQC or to actually use it for physical combat?

I don't know about the other stuff, I'll read it later when I have time but for the precog, yes. Yogiri uses that precog on absolutley every fight where he is concealing his ID, which is always he goes to clear some of hell or has to train. Not only that but he always uses it to dodge things that should not be dodgeable by him even when not trying to conceal it, bullets from a giant aggressor that should have blown him to smithereens, a sniper shot that was gonna kill Tomochika, every single debree from a collapsing building being evaded perfectly, ect. Implementing his precog to fighting he can kill monsters that can fight some of his classmates who can one-shot him with every attack, can take a lot of his attacks and still keep going, and ofc out skill him, this due to him reading ahead of his opponents movements and simply moving trough the hazard lines every single time with minimal movements due to Yogiri grasping his opponents movements pretty quickly and having a lot of practice with hsi precog. In addition to this he also uses that same precog to read even further ahead of the opponent and land all of his attacks with certanty while again making sure he won't be touched.

Touma definitely takes the battle continuation battle tho (although this is def not the first time he is outclassed there)

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

A range advantage that Touma has dealt with, from people that are way more experienced with swords, and whose swords had other traits beyond being swords.

I also still don't understand why we are assuming Yogiri suddenly miraculously comes up with a strategy of spamming death stuff all over Touma's body when he would most likely just think it doesn't work after using it on him and not working. Are you arguing Yogiri, or his powers? Because unless there's any indication he'd come up with an strategy like this, you are just coming up with the best strategy he could have already knowing what Touma can do and going "so yes, Yogiri would certainly do this".

"Killing buildings and bridges to kill" is goddamn asinine. Touma is no imbecile and won't chase under such conditions, and they are in the middle of Central Park. Nothing really to use.

At this point Yogiri the character isn't being argued, but what Yogiri should do to abuse his powers the best in this scenario without a regard for that being something he would do.

Drop that, it's nonsense. I am surprised at myself I took so long to realize this, but either you explain how we can believe Yogiri would come up with this or you drop this fanfic, because this is all your own idea.

 

[PhantomØ4]

The bridges and stuff are from @Inori's thing. I did not even see that rally happening in the first place. With buildings before that being pulled in because @Malox and I myself responded with it being even only a possibility of the fight was extended for long enough for them to even end up in such situation.

It should be noted that I myself am going under the assumption that IB nulls its hazard as argued earlier, which will make it stand out like a sore thumb in Yogiri's vision, so that whole thing of it being basically impossible for Yogiri to figure out it's his right hand nulling stuff kinda falls apart when he has his vision full of shades of dark and then there's this clear trajectory marked by IB.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

I am not sure what you mean by the second excerpt. Are you talking about his precog?

If that's what you meant, unless his precog is supernatural or magical in nature, that won't happen. And if it were to happen, then Yogiri won't be able to precog anything. Touma actually mostly fights one handed. Accelerator directly imitates him for a while and realizes how ******* hard what Touma is doing actually is, but he still does it. He does it all the way back in the first volumes, not even mentioning the later ones. So he would be using the hand that Yogiri can't precog in the first place, if we decide to assume his precog is supernatural and IB is not affected.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Yeah I am talking about his extrasensorial perception/precog thing.

Yogiri won't be able to precog anything due to Touma fighting with one hand (his right one I assume)?

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

If we assume his precog is supernatural so he can't see anything from his IB hand, yes. Touma mostly uses that arm to fight, and most likely will only use it after feeling Yogiro try whatever he may wanna try.

If we assume it isn't supernatural, Yogiro has no reason to focus on his arm at all because he won't know what's happening. So then he's left fighting Touma, who has '''''way higher stamina, much more experience in actual CQC, also has precog and has way more experience using it for battle, and has fought the likes of Clarissa and Knight Leader who are way better than Yogiri with a sword, so he knows what he's getting in for.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Yeah his extrasensory preception/precog is supernatural considering it is linked back to his powers. So it would get affected by IB in this situation which would lead to Yogiri having a far easier time figuring ou that Touma has something going on with his arm and grounds the possibility instead of just becoming this fan fiction. Of course this would result on the fact that Yogiri could not see the hazard lines for IB, but the rest of Touma should still produce shadows which should let Yogiri's precog still be useful when it comes to striking or evading (although it becomes less reliable due to not being capable of grasping the actual attack trajectory but better it is still than nothing).

Still if Yogiri kills Touma's senses, and lower side or left side IB would still need to react to null them, no? While Touma may fight using only one hand he still makes use of his lower side for completely different things, correct? Or can he compensate for the loss of his lower side with only his right side? Touma's senses being dead nulls his precognition as it relies on them from what I have read.

The fact that Yogiri can spam ID faster than IB can null the death of Touma's parts is what i consider the utility of ID in this match, not simply lolyoursensesaregonebeshockeeeeeedandiIstabyou and if IB is nulling something then Touma's non precogitable part being out of service and that inevitably creates an opening for Yogiri to attack.

Yogiri's battle continuation is not that great yes, but he compensates with his movement style thanks to Yogiri's sort of Analytical Prediction which grasps the opponents movements rather quickly (altough he might not have as much of an easy time grasping Touma's right side as he cannot see it displayed for him as clearly)

Yogiri's experience and skill is not as to say that Touma simply gets outclassed in skill or experience but several people here have already attempted to make it seem or believe that Yogiri is totally clueless CQC when he can hold his own enough. Because there is a massive difference between a random with no idea of how to use a sword and that has never been on a fight on his life vs a quick learner who is skilled with the sword and that has already been through multiple fights where if he messed up he would get one shotted.

 

[MrDrProfessorPatricio]

Wow this is one of the most heated debate in Vs battle that I have witnessed

 

[Malox1696]

I See people are returning to the excuses that he can kill his lower half WITH NO PROOF AS HE STILL CAN't DO IT IN THE NOVEL without affecting him whole

Again guys u just can't accept anything and live by ur own fan fic

It was debunked on this and the previous thread

 

[PhantomØ4]

That is nice and all but you went from denying it via the story to denying it via null to baselessly saying I just refuse to belive it even after bothering myself to explain my reasoning and you just dropping the topic and going on to say I am doing a fan fiction. Touma won't die from shock/pain when he can take 6-C attacks and survive with a whole ton of injuries. Or what, are you gonna regress to arguing a misfire when it clearly was not? INB4 You say I am over here with my subjective reality.

 

[PhantomØ4]

Not to mention I have conceded a few things already since they were valid points but you keep acting like if I just denied everything because I can. But I guess that does not matter because I am not agreeing with everything you say.

 

[XDragnoir]

Incon for reasons above. Btw, the guy Yogiri killed the lower half died because of the shock and not because of ID, no?

 

[PhantomØ4]

Yes, he did. It is pretty clear that he died because of it. A misfire beacuse of precision problems when trying to kill an ankle was even presented seconds before (or after?) and it is clearly different.

 

[YungManzi]

I See people are returning to the excuses that he can kill his lower half WITH NO PROOF AS HE STILL CAN't DO IT IN THE NOVEL without affecting him whole
Again guys u just can't accept anything and live by ur own fan fic

It was debunked on this and the previous thread

I mean, so what? Just because it wouldn't outright kill him doesn't mean it would have no effect.

 

[Malox1696]

That is nice and all but you went from denying it via the story to denying it via null to baselessly saying I just refuse to belive it even after bothering myself to explain my reasoning and you just dropping the topic and going on to say I am doing a fan fiction. Touma won't die from shock/pain when he can take 6-C attacks and survive with a whole ton of injuries. Or what, are you gonna regress to arguing a misfire when it clearly was not? INB4 You say I am over here with my subjective reality.

yogiri says he started training so he can partially kill body parts cause he could not do it before without affecting them whole

"I tried to experiment with my ability when I was with Tomochika before. At the time I didn't think that there was much of a point to it, but recently I remembered that it'll be a necessary tool to have in order to get information out of that Sage." (Yogiri)

Tomochika remembered the situation he was talking about.

Yogiri's ability was way too strong. So much so that it's usefulness can be limited. Therefore, he tested out whether or not he was able to use it while taking it easy on somebody.

At the time, the results were horrifying.

The target would generally just die when even one part of the body abruptly stopped functioning."

are u gonna says "no u have to understand the meaning as the narrator didn't really mean that"

 

[PhantomØ4]

Nice, that does not indicate a misfire at all. It just says they die, which everyone already acknoledges because he died from the shcok/pain of abruptly losing half of his body.

 

[SpookyShadow]

Damn, this debate is long. But I like this fight. It seems quite unique

I think I will vote for my man Touma. In novels he is actually a very skilled street fighter. Of course sword is a problem if Yogiri is some kind of sword god. And it's not like Touma never encountered a sword user. Though he didn't actually "fight" against her. Maybe would change my vote later if I hear some more arguments. I don't know jack about Yogiri.

 

[Malox1696]

Nice, that does not indicate a misfire at all. It just says they die, which everyone already acknoledges because he died from the shcok/pain of abruptly losing half of his body.

actually no, re-read that part

Left over were six and Yogiri decided to go through them in order.

"Half die."

He spoke as he pointed at a beastman with the features of a tiger, who dropped to the ground the moment he finished. His intention was to kill only the tigerman's lower half, one of the ideas for going easy on a target.
Yogiri's power was to order any target to die, so perhaps it was possible to make only half a creature his target? For Yogiri, who had never thought about using his power differently, this was uncharted territory.

"AaAAH—— ´╝á´╝á´╝á´╝á´╝á´╝á´╝á´╝á´╝á´╝â´╝â´╝â!"

The demitiger screamed in words they didn't understand. He didn't die instantly, but it didn't take long for his voice to stop.

——Well, that was to be expected. Instantly losing half your body sounds pretty fatal.

It was unclear what exactly happened to the beastman's anatomy, but apparently halving him was overdoing it. Yogiri decided to pinpoint his target further.

"Right ankle."

He released his power at a sheeplike demihuman, but blundered. He wasn't able to focus his power that precisely, possibly due to a lack of practice, and his target suffered instant death.

"Left arm."

His next target had a leopard's face. It worked, but once again his target died soon after.
A sudden occurrence of medical dysfunction in one's left arm: There may be people capable of surviving it, but some might just die from the shock.

"Not working too well compared to just going all out..."

Yogiri mumbled as he began considering simply killing them without further thought."


only mention of shock is for the left arm and that was an assumption , what important here is the medical dysfunction , that's not pain

 

[SoulRebell]

"Instantly losing half your body sounds pretty fatal"

The difference between a misfire and a death that comes natural from a good portion of your body is obviously shown. It wasnt a misfire because the opposer didn't die instantly like the ankle incident. If you lose half of your body in an instant you are going to die like it or not but in this case to show that he didn't completely instant death him. The victim is shown to be screaming prior to death.

 

[Malox1696]

"Instantly losing half of your body is fatal"
The difference between a misfire and a death that comes natural from a good portion of your body is obviously shown. It wasnt a misfire because the opposer didn't die instantly like the ankle incident.

THAT'S MY POINT if he uses something that affect him whole in the end, it will be negated , if he was capable of ONLY affecting 1 part deactivating it and not making the person death as a consequence it would not get negated passively


this is the same as VENTO spell , reduce the oxygen in the lungs to create a knock out = negated as it would affect IB by knocking him unconscious


affecting only the lower body/arm/etc that would lead to death = negated cause it would affect IB by killing him

 

[SoulRebell]

But he has shown to the ability to kill parts without misfiring through simple concentration. Excerpt supports ths. I honestly don't know what you're arguing but him killing the lower half wasn't the reason he entirely died. It died once again because he was missing a lower half naturally. Killing a leg or sense doesn't cause the opposer to die which is the claims being made here. Even you argued one does it will take time for them to die the pain and screaming in agony are still something they will be doing prior to natural death.

 

[SoulRebell]

The argument isn't that death manip is going to kill him but yogiri's sword will. Those are simple diversions that will allow yogiri to get the advantage in CQC he can negate the death all he wants. parts of his legs such as the ankles which he attempted can still be killed shutting off mobility.

 

[Malox1696]

But he has shown to the ability to kill parts without misfiring through simple concentration. Excerpt supports ths. I honestly don't know what you're arguing but him killing the lower half wasn't the reason he entirely died. It died once again because he was missing a lower half naturally. Killing a leg or sense doesn't cause the opposer to die which is the claims being made here. Even you argued one does it will take time for them to die the pain and screaming in agony are still something they will be doing prior to natural death.

1 there is no pain, 2 the effect still ends up the same, being unconscious is the after effect of losing oxygen lvl


this is the same, dying is the after effect of losing the body part as he can't still only kill one part without making the opponent die (simply deactivating the part like he is training to do)

 

[SoulRebell]

1. So if he felt no pain why would he be screaming ""AaAAH—— ´╝á´╝á´╝á´╝á´╝á´╝á´╝á´╝á´╝á´╝â´╝â´╝â!" . literally no reason if it was painless then there's no reason to scream lmao. 2. Can you explain how taking away the oxygen in the lungs of someone equates to killing tiny parts of them that won't even affect IB. Send the excerpt in which this happens because you're explaining it poorly. Killing his ankle has nothing to do with IB. And yes we have shown you him killing poeple without ID instantly killing them. The excerpt in which you sent proves the claim so I don't know what you are on about. He kills half of him he is still alive until he naturally dies from the lack a lower half. Again if it was ID that killed him he would instantly die just like the ankle situation. The fact that you comeback with these attempts are quite sad ngl. Again yogiri has shown to kill the eye of his opponent without killing the entirety of it. And he killed the petal without killing it entirely it just takes concentration. It is accepted by you and everyone that the dude didn't die from instant death but he died from the fact that he lost half of himself.

 

[Malox1696]

Again so u understand, the after effect still affects him whole, that's why it's negated, falling unconscious cause ur oxygen lvl is low is completely natural and he still was unaffected, u are completely ignoring this fact

Btw there can't be pain cause the nerves are dead , him screaming is probably him realizing he is dying

 

[EdenSux]

After effect isnt supernatural has no reason for it be negated

I mean no really you need more back up to tell me that you do X in a part of his body with supernatural and the after effect that its natural of what happened in that part would be negated

 

[YungManzi]

Why is this even being argued? Just because death gets nulled doesn't mean he can null his lower half being killed without touching it.