The Return of The Fire Force Revision Threads!!!

[M3X_2.0]

Arthur's ability is subjective reality, he can impose his thought to become real, plot manipulatiion requires some meta-fiction shenanigan which there is none here

Exactly what happens in the manga. Whatever his schizophrenic mind thinks becomes real, he thinks he’s the main character of some story, and then manipulates this story. Point is, that story is only something he created, he’s kinda of schizophrenic and I’m not joking.

 

[Deceived3596]

He's just like me ong fr fr

 

[M3X_2.0]

You’re worse

 

[azontr]

He's... He's just like me fr fr.,..,...,.....,,

 

[Maitreya12]

Exactly what happens in the manga. Whatever his schizophrenic mind thinks becomes real, he thinks he’s the main character of some story, and then manipulates this story. Point is, that story is only something he created, he’s kinda of schizophrenic and I’m not joking.

Fr . His powers are just based on how stupid he’s being during that time of the day.

Dude’s a dumbass…a literal dumbass. He’s so stupid sometimes that this mf will really turn himself back into being a regular ass person again by accident.

Freaking bullshi ah “I’m the knight king” video game looking mf

 

[Deceived3596]

You’re worse

 

[Iiliminal]

 

[Deceived3596]

Composite Abilities:​

I’m fine with this, the evidence is pretty obvious and direct imo, if souls are shown to contain/grant one’s abilities, then the logical conclusion of fusing with everyone’s soul would be you gaining access to their abilities if they had any.

Mind and Soul Interconnected:​

I’m also fine with this, it’s explicitly shown multiple times that souls within Fire Force and Soul Eater have consciousness, inherently presupposing the existence of souls having minds, or at least a mind-like structure as consciousness is an aspect of the mind. With it defining one’s ability to be aware of internal and external existences. It’s also synonymous with the mind as well, depending on the context.

Conceptual Manipulation:​

I’m also fine with this, now for the exact “type” of Conceptual Manipulation, it’s entirely dependent on if Higher-Dimensional Existence is accepted or not, if it isn’t than it’s Type 2 since it’s embodying and manipulating abstract, universal concepts which shape everything within their sphere of influence, such as manipulating the concept of mathematics to manipulate the equation of PI. But if it was than it would be Type 1 since Adolla would be dimensionally higher compared to the regular Fire Force universe, with Adolla housing all the concepts of the verse within it, if all of which falls under the sphere of influence of the concept of mathematics was destroyed, the actual concept itself wouldn’t be since it’s necessarily independent from the lower dimensional realm which it defines.

Nonexistent Physiology:​

I’ve already explained why I disagree with this, and so have many other people, with the OP removing it from the thread after these criticisms, so I'm not going to address it here.

Higher Dimensional Existence:​

I’m also fine with this, I’m decently sure if a dimension is consistently referenced to be dimensionally higher compared to a 3-D/4-D dimension, with said comparison being one of mathematical differences, it would qualify for Higher-Dimensional Existence since it’s directly explaining a mathematical, dimensional transcendence over a 3-D/4-D dimension, which is what Higher-Dimensional Existence basically is, having mathematically higher dimensionality compared to just three dimensions.

But I could be wrong since I'm not that knowledgeable about the qualifiers for the ability, I’m more of a philosophy goon, me no gud at math :grug:

Fate Manipulation and Probability Manipulation:​

I’m also fine with this, the evidence is direct and seemingly uncontradicted, the verse still gets folded by Prime Soul King though.

Final Notes:​

I’m neutral on Shinra having all abilities within the series, similarly to The Evangelist.

I'll address the Plot Manipulation later in its own separate post.

 

[Sonoftanavast9]

I fell like the HDE thing and the proposition of plot manipulation could be interconnected to each other

Burns was within adolla and Joker became able to see into adolla using his Adolla linked eye by seeing through burns eye. While looking at the world through adolla he see's the world a story like Licht who mentions that he's able to see the same thing.

Even if we ignore the end of chapter statement from Arthur or the fact that the author specifically uses the word "Story" rather than just world in these choice scene to make a clear distinction to the point where Licht actually corrects himself & Joker when he initially uses the word "World" there's also the whole interaction where because of adolla the meta aspects of reality basically get exposed front and center where a formerly nameless background character explains that the other background characters don't think for themselves unless they become "Established characters"(in this case by being named by an already established character). This might be metaphorical but to me that makes no sense since the background character literally vanished immediately once her role in the story was done directly on screen(If the whole thing was metaphorical they wouldn't have "literally" stopped existing on the spot).

Though to be fair I'm not really knowledgeable on Higher dimensional stuff

 

[Maitreya12]

I’m also fine with this, the evidence is direct and seemingly uncontradicted, the verse still gets folded by Prime Soul King though.

I’ll race you to see which verse can get tier 1 first.

 

[Maitreya12]

I fell like the HDE thing and the proposition of plot manipulation could be interconnected to each other

Burns was within adolla and Joker became able to see into adolla using his Adolla linked eye by seeing through burns eye. While looking at the world through adolla he see's the world a story like Licht who mentions that he's able to see the same thing.

Even if we ignore the end of chapter statement from Arthur or the fact that the author specifically uses the word "Story" rather than just world in these choice scene to make a clear distinction to the point where Licht actually corrects himself & Joker when he initially uses the word "World" there's also the whole interaction where because of adolla the meta aspects of reality basically get exposed front and center where a formerly nameless background character explains that the other background characters don't think for themselves unless they become "Established characters"(in this case by being named by an already established character). This might be metaphorical but to me that makes no sense since the background character literally vanished immediately once her role in the story was done directly on screen(If the whole thing was metaphorical they wouldn't have "literally" stopped existing on the spot).

Though to be fair I'm not really knowledgeable on Higher dimensional stuff

Yeah the link you provided further establishes metafictional type evidence referring to themselves as part of a story and as characters in it.

So thanks for that

 

[Dereck03]

@Maitreya you should remove the entire NEP section of your Blog Post.

 

[Maitreya12]

Done

 

[Dereck03]

Done

From your blog post not this post, you would have just left it highlighted but it doesn't matter.

 

[Maitreya12]

Whoops lol

 

[ImmortalDread]

But this does not mean that by a simple mention of ideas any character will actually get NEP, the usual is to get AE or some kind of conceptual nature, to get NEP you have to emphasize that the user does not exist per se.

I don't think it was a simple mention, he is also described as existence and non-existence, NEP type 3 should qualify.

 

[Dereck03]

I don't think it was a simple mention, he is also described as existence and non-existence, NEP type 3 should qualify.

I already talked and debate all of this so read the thread.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I already talked and debate all of this so read the thread.

No

 

[Dereck03]

No

If you won't, get your a$$ out of here supposed expert.

 

[PrinceofPein]

It’s not just about “him being the pinnacle.” It’s about the direct citation of him gaining the power of “all creation.” Through his imagination.

yes but he never showcased anyone's ability in the series and the statement is used to mean he can create anything

It’s not about the “shedding as many tears as there are creatures on this planet.” Those tears are the very souls of all of humanity. Even the ones who had died previously before the cataclysm, hence the “as many creatures as born on this planet” part. But anyways it’s directly cited that Haumea is not just fusing with the souls of all of humanity, but it’s very unconsciousness as well. This again is directly clarified to us as it outright says humanities consciousness merged with Adolla.

So it would in fact be the mind and the soul. The soul includes the consciousness as well.

Humans' souls contain their consciousness, that does not mean they are the same thing, that was my point

Arthur’s ability is more akin to plot manipulation as he isn’t just “making his thoughts become real,” he’s directly changing the narrative itself.

The context here is that he has the power to stand up to dragon and sway people's depair, not plot manipulation

This is further clarified over the fact that Arthur isn’t even altering reality with his thoughts some of the time when he’s using this ability. For example, him passively playing a video game alters the course of the world around him. He’s literally making reality into like that of a video game and him the main character of that video game.

it is called subjective reality

Another example is when he wasn’t feeling the affects of outer space because he didn’t realize he should be feeling it, until he realized he needed to breathe, at which point only then did he suddenly succumb to oxygen deficiency. Notice how he wasn’t altering or changing reality with his thoughts there, he was just passively fighting someone until his own thoughts made him succumb to reality by mistake.

this literally proves subjective reality, in his mind he can breathe, the moment he notices he cannot breathe, he could no longer breathe.
He alters reality to his own perception, that is not plot manipulation.

Meta-fictional structures can be established in the fact that Adolla isn’t just altering the world but the very story itself. The kanji being used here even specifically clarifies that the term “story” is being used in relation to the world. Mind you this is literally just 4 chapters prior to Arthur’s other changing the narrative statement, which is another meta-fictional term.

First, we do not use Editor's notes. but even if we are using it
Do I need to explain that "the structure of our world, no our story..." and adding that they do not understand the story that is happening around them, is simply after the fact that adolla is altering history of mankind and about to eradicate them and they are oblivious to it, of course if mankind is eradicted, mankind's story changes, this is not a metafictional element of any kind but a simple statement

There are also other criteria I could list out for more qualifying meta fictional shenanigans as well.

You need something akin to a book, painting or some medium in which information is passed. but please list it I will like to see them

Exactly what happens in the manga. Whatever his schizophrenic mind thinks becomes real, he thinks he’s the main character of some story, and then manipulates this story. Point is, that story is only something he created, he’s kinda of schizophrenic and I’m not joking.

Which is what subjective reality is all about, you have a fictional story in your mind and those fictions become real, you can blur the lines between fiction and reality.

Subjective Reality is the power that allows the user to manipulate the boundary between reality and unreality. It allows the user to induce reality to what is fiction, fantasy or imaginary, bringing them into existence, as well as turning facts, entities and events into unreality, vanishing them as if they were a mere dream or illusion.

they can either turn reality to fiction or fiction to reality.
in this case author's mind has a lot of fictional stuff, and then it becomes reality.

 

[Maitreya12]

yes but he never showcased anyone's ability in the series and the statement is used to mean he can create anything

Actually he has directly showcased abilities related to those in the series such as Hibana’s abilities also it’s not just in direct reference to his creation ability as that was already mentioned, no it’s directly cited that he’s gained the power of all of creation and thus everything in it.

Humans' souls contain their consciousness, that does not mean they are the same thing, that was my point

What? My point is that the soul and mind are intrinsically connected. This was demonstrated by how fusing with the soul directly fuses with the consciousness as well. I don’t know what you’re saying here.

The context here is that he has the power to stand up to dragon and sway people's depair, not plot manipulation

No…the context here is that he has the direct power to change the narrative of the story around him as is directly stated. Nothing you said here contradicts the notion of plot manipulation.

it is called subjective reality

This would not be subjective reality as I have explained.

this literally proves subjective reality, in his mind he can breathe, the moment he notices he cannot breathe, he could no longer breathe.
He alters reality to his own perception, that is not plot manipulation.

Nope. Not even close. What do you mean “in his mind he can breathe,” he wasn’t breathing. He was never breathing, we can literally see him try and breathe and blood spewing from his nose.

This is why it’s not subjective reality. Because he altered no reality here, he made no thought of “I can breathe in space” and was suddenly able to breathe in space, no, he simply didn’t realize he needed to breathe yet and didn’t realize the other affects he should be suffering while in space and thus wasn’t feeling those affects yet. Reality wasn’t altered to him,

First, we do not use Editor's notes. but even if we are using it
Do I need to explain that "the structure of our world, no our story..." and adding that they do not understand the story that is happening around them, is simply after the fact that adolla is altering history of mankind and about to eradicate them and they are oblivious to it, of course if mankind is eradicted, mankind's story changes, this is not a metafictional element of any kind but a simple statement

First the editor’s note was in direct reference to the kanji’s being used here in reference to the story.

Second off, nothing that you said disproves the metafictional elements of the series. Nothing they said there was talking about “the history of mankind,” no they inherently specify the “story” in relation to the world which is a metafictional element. They even specify they’re directly referring to the “structure of the world….no of the very story.” So they’re not talking about just “history,” as they’re directly referring to the structure of the thing they’re in. Not just that but we have a direct citation of characters referring to others as background characters and explicit characters which again coincides with Licht’s other words of people not grasping the story around them. The usage of all these terms paint a clear metafictional element in the series and does not coincide with your interpretation of it simply being “altering history” as no mention of this was made in the scans provided.

You need something akin to a book, painting or some medium in which information is passed. but please list it I will like to see them

….like a video game? Something Arthur was literally “changing the narrative” around him so the world matched the video game that he was playing literally just moments earlier. All 2-D pixels and all. Directly showcasing another medium.

Through playing this medium he also passively alters the course of events of the world around him as well in which information was being passed….which is literally listed on his very own profile.

Which is what subjective reality is all about, you have a fictional story in your mind and those fictions become real, you can blur the lines between fiction and reality.

Right…but the issue is it’s not just him “turning fictional stories real,” again it’s very plainly specified what Arthur’s power is. It’s the power to change the narrative itself. Not just “altering reality”, the statement wouldn’t have been made the way it was if that was the case. The narrative of the structure of the story they’re in which was literally clarified to us 3 chapters prior to Arthur’s statement.

they can either turn reality to fiction or fiction to reality.
in this case author's mind has a lot of fictional stuff, and then it becomes reality.

he’s not just making fiction to reality though he’s directly having himself be the main character of the story he set himself up in. Just like that in a video game which he was just playing moments earlier. Which is why he began to just manifest abilities on the fly such as teleportation or other such things like being capable of regenerating himself.

Nothing here is contradicting the multitude of statements showcasing the ability is based around the meta fictional elements of the story around them, not just simply subjective reality warping.

 

[Maitreya12]

Yep actually for even more direct evidence of metafictional usage….the mother literally vanished when her “role as a background character” was completed, further signifying they’re referring to the usage of the word “story” as direct as can be. The usage of all these words like “narrative,” “story,” “background/explicit characters” and their respective “roles” in that “story” plainly establish the foundation of metafictional elements me thinks.

This would also entail EE by plot manipulation as well lmao. Didn’t even realize it.

 

[Damage3245]

I think that the composite abilities of everyone in the verse is a bit too speculative and it would be better just to list the abilities that the Evangelist has demonstrated.

If I'm outnumbered by other staff on this though, I understand.

 

[Maitreya12]

I think that the composite abilities of everyone in the verse is a bit too speculative and it would be better just to list the abilities that the Evangelist has demonstrated.

If I'm outnumbered by other staff on this though, I understand.

Which part about it do you find speculative or lacking in evidence?

Because for the abilities the evangelist has demonstrated it is confirmed that those abilities demonstrated are directly from the souls Haumea fused with. So in turn wouldn’t fusing with the souls and consciousness of all humanity be giving you the power and abilities of all those souls with the way we understand how fusion works in Fire Force?

Or would a possibly/likely rating be more appropriate with the evidence presented?

 

[Reiner04]

Who's the expertise? Tell me so i can flirt with him.

Me.

 

[Reiner04]

I'm here

 

[Abstractly_a_Protagonist]

Plot Manipulation is good to me.

Subjective Reality warp is part of the Plot Manip so I'm simply not sure why that is even a counter-argument.

As long the character views reality as a narrative and because of that they can change the underlying setting on the world akin to a someone deciding the course of story (and simply not solely fate manip). It's reasonable to me.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I agree with everything

 

[Damage3245]

Which part about it do you find speculative or lacking in evidence?

Because for the abilities the evangelist has demonstrated it is confirmed that those abilities demonstrated are directly from the souls Haumea fused with. So in turn wouldn’t fusing with the souls and consciousness of all humanity be giving you the power and abilities of all those souls with the way we understand how fusion works in Fire Force?

Or would a possibly/likely rating be more appropriate with the evidence presented?

The abilities she's demonstrated is only the abilities of the Pillars specifically and she brings up Sumire as another example of a person's ability she has after they recognize Inca and Iris' abilities.

I think a "Likely" rating would be appropriate for all of the non-Pillar individuals she's absorbed though, so I'm not completely against it.


As for Shirna though, while he has manipulated the souls, he hasn't absorbed anyone's (except technically Sho + his mtoher) so I think it's a bit more a reach to say he must have everyone's abilities too.

 

[The_Emperor4th]

So... I've got a little bit of time for this, and I've seen that some of the important points have been brought in by someone above, so I'm just going to tackle a few points, specifically at plot manipulation part, (which caught my attention honestly).

To cut straight to the heart of the point, all of the supernatural abilities Arthur Boyle has demonstrated throughout the later half of the series has been explained and it's through his power to change the very narrative of the story itself.

You know in this wiki, we don't list abilities to some characters simply by "he can change the narrative" without any evidence shown that he can do it. But sure, let's see how Arthur changing narrative looks like.

This can be seen through many examples in throughout the series and this ability is even passive in regards to Arthur, as even him doing something completely simple and mundane as playing a video game passively alters the course of the story around them. Note this ability of passively altering the course of the story by playing a video game is already even listed in Arthur's own profile as well, however this is meant to properly establish the true nature of Arthur's abilities. This power further gets hammered home especially during Arthur's climactic fight with Dragon

Information manipulation, yes seems fine for this part, and I can think of some abilities like reality warping or subjective reality for this too, when everything he imagines in the game is going to be a part of reality, nothing here in the form of metafictional or plot manipulation here.

Here his power is on full display. The way Arthur is changing the narrative of the story is by envisioning it to be a video game, and himself the main character of said video game. Through this changing of the narrative brought on entirely by Arthur's own grand delusions about himself, he is able to do things far beyond the scope of any previous shown reality warping. Things such as manifesting entirely random and new powers such as turning his sword into a compass not unlike in a video game, using "magic" to teleport himself, or manipulating lightning in the skies to perform a devastating attack. His passive plot manipulation also continues to work even further as even when Arthur heads into space, he did not feel the effects of space simply due to them not realizing they were meant to be affected yet as even the narrator points out. The effects of things like oxygen deficiency only begin to take hold once Arthur realizes he can't breathe in space, however this doesn't affect Dragon as he envisions himself to be a "force of nature" and "a dragon" much like Arthur sees himself as a main character in a video game.

Okay?, how does this become proof that he really changed literally the narrative? , just with “being able to do things far beyond the scope of any previous shown reality warping”?. Where do you get the conclusion that this is a plot manipulation?, all sort of this can simply be done by reality warping and subjective reality, or if there's a little mention of conceptual things, it can be conceptual manipulation too you know?

This "changing the narrative" ability into a video game even becomes so blatant that upon putting on the star ring, video game text appeared saying how Arthur "equipped" the star ring as one would an item in a video game, and the fact that the narrator even starts expressing the fight's progression akin to that of a boss fight in a game as well. This ring by the way was simply a normal ring gifted to him by a friend, but Arthur's envisions of this ring as that of an item in a game he would equip as the main character in, he changed this ring's uses and connected to Adolla itself.

This will be Text manipulation at best, and this can also be done via reality warping, subjective reality and etc. Again nothing here deals with literally with plot manipulation.

Hell it can even be directly shown how Arhur's own ability demonstrations directly match that of the video game he was playing earlier as the same pixel like scales of a video appears in the real world in a completely mismatched style as it matches that of a "video game," not that of a "manga."

Text manipulation, reality warping and etc.

This connection to Adolla allows him to manipulate the plot around him as the power of Adolla does not only change the reality of the world around them, but inherently affects and changes the story itself as well. Note that the kanji being used here is in reference to both "world" and "the story" itself as well and was even taken notice of in an editor's note, citing how the usage of this term story was probably important for later. And it had been as just 4 chapters later after this statement of Adolla changing the very story itself was made, Arthur's "changing the narrative" statement was also followed up with, showcasing how the changing of the plot around them through Adolla's power is both explicitly and consistently said in the series.

This sounds interesting I would say, with kanji and editor note that tells that the term “plot” is specifically used by its author, which may be true Arthur changed the narrative story. But, looking from another perspective, I'll think this is just a metaphor from to reveal how their fate is or how the ending of this story/event (in the sense of what is the ending of their duel), rather than heading towards narrative and metafictional stuff or etc.

 

[Maitreya12]

The abilities she's demonstrated is only the abilities of the Pillars specifically and she brings up Sumire as another example of a person's ability she has after they recognize Inca and Iris' abilities.

I think a "Likely" rating would be appropriate for all of the non-Pillar individuals she's absorbed though, so I'm not completely against it.


As for Shirna though, while he has manipulated the souls, he hasn't absorbed anyone's (except technically Sho + his mtoher) so I think it's a bit more a reach to say he must have everyone's abilities too.

Ok. Thank you very much for your input on the matter. Any other things that also look to be questionable evidence wise in the proposed anbility additions?

Just to also quickly clarify something with Shinra as well but one of the people he fused with (his mother) just so happens to be the doppelgänger of The Evangelist which is of course which is of course the conciseness of all of humanity so he would in fact be fusing with the mind and souls of humanity as well. Along with the other citation of Shinra directly gaining the specific powers of all of creation as well.

Though I do understand the greater hesitancy for Shinra’s case in comparison to Adolla’s.

 

[Maitreya12]

So... I've got a little bit of time for this, and I've seen that some of the important points have been brought in by someone above, so I'm just going to tackle a few points, specifically at plot manipulation part, (which caught my attention honestly).


You know in this wiki, we don't list abilities to some characters simply by "he can change the narrative" without any evidence shown that he can do it. But sure, let's see how Arthur changing narrative looks like.

It isn’t just about the “changing the narrative” statement, but from the multitude of other statements directly supporting this metafictional notion such as the structure of the very story itself of the world they’re in being altered as well as the direct citation of the characters being labeled as either “explicit or background characters” with them straight up vanishing from existence the moment their “role as background characters”!is finished.

It’s even noted that the characters themselves don’t even recall the other’s name, they’re simply referred to as “Natusuo’s mother” like a character is in a story. Not like an actual name a person has, which clearly establishes metafictional shenanigans going on I think.

Information manipulation, yes seems fine for this part, and I can think of some abilities like reality warping or subjective reality for this too, when everything he imagines in the game is going to be a part of reality, nothing here in the form of metafictional or plot manipulation here.

It’s not that everything he imagines in the game is becoming part of reality, it’s that he’s “changed the narrative” so that he himself is that main character of the video game. Hence why he is changing the narrative of the story itself so that he is the main character like one would find in a video game.

Okay?, how does this become proof that he really changed his literally the narrative? , just with “being able to do things far beyond the scope of any previous shown reality warping”?. Where do you get the conclusion that this is a plot manipulation?, all sort of this can simply be done by reality warping and subjective reality, or if there's a little mention of conceptual things, it can be conceptual manipulation too you know?

I’m getting the conclusion that this is plot manipulation from the multitude of evidence citing metafictional terms and structures and the direct citation of Arthur’s ability being a result of changing the narrative surrounding that metafictional structure.

Arthur’s abilities being similar to things like subjective reality doesn’t contradict or dispute the notion of plot manipulation being proposed. Often times the effect of one power can be likened to another, an example of this is how you can get similarly desired results from usage of the ability causality manipulation as you could if you were using reality warping. But just because you could use your causality manipulation to get the result of reality warping, doesn’t mean you didn’t use causality manipulation.

However just because the same result can be achieved by another power doesn’t dispute the notion that the feat was performed by the specific power clarified. Similarly so while the desired result of Arthur’s power can be akin to subjective reality warping, it doesn’t dispute the notion that his powers are derived off of plot manipulation as is specified in the series itself.

This will be Text manipulation at best, and this can also be done via reality warping, subjective reality and etc. Again nothing here deals with literally with plot manipulation.

Changing the structure of the story and the narrative to that of a video game isn’t literally plot manipulating?

Text manipulation, reality warping and etc.

Again this doesn’t dispute the notion of it being plot manipulation.

This sounds interesting I would say, with kanji and editor note that tells that the term “plot” is specifically used by its author, which may be true Arthur changed the narrative story. But, looking from another perspective, I'll think this is just a metaphor from to reveal how their fate is or how the ending of this story/event (in the sense of what is the ending of their duel), rather than heading towards narrative and metafictional stuff or etc.

It is not simply a metaphor as this notion of “the structure of the story” being altered is repeated multiple times and the fact that they are literally likened to being characters one would find in a story cements the notion that they are talking purely literally here.

 

[narutosage15]

No time for rest when you’re a FF stan

 

[The_Emperor4th]

@Maitreya

I'm responding to you later, need to double check the manga to know what the context there is like. But sure, my thoughts will still change depending on how the discussion in this thread takes place.

Ramadan is exhausting me, honestly, so don't expect I'll fast respond in this thread. Pardon me.

 

[narutosage15]

Ah. I may have screwed up on which NEP I was intending on as this may be more akin to type 3 NEP. The evidence used for type 3 can found right here where it is stated that Adolla both exists and doesn’t at the same time due to it being a world of pure perception. Which I also go more in depth in

I believe this applies for type 3 NEP because as outlined on the page, in terms of a binary this would be the equivalent to being 1 and 0 at the same time.

Adolla should already qualify as a 0 in terms of a binary system as it is made up purely of thoughts and imagination. I believe this qualifies as a thought (as in like the thought bubbles you see is used for a characters’ thought) lacks any ontological “real” material existence in the same way a rock lacks a soul.

Thanks for clarifying.

Yeah this is AE type 1,other than this I agree with everything else

 

[ImmortalDread]

It is not anti-feat or counter-argument to say that those are "information manipulation, text manipulation, causality manipulation" if it is done indeed through manipulation of plot.

If you don't mind, read plot hax since your arguments goes against the ability you are opposing it.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Second off, nothing that you said disproves the metafictional elements of the series. Nothing they said there was talking about “the history of mankind,” no they inherently specify the “story” in relation to the world which is a metafictional element. They even specify they’re directly referring to the “structure of the world….no of the very story.” So they’re not talking about just “history,” as they’re directly referring to the structure of the thing they’re in. Not just that but we have a direct citation of characters referring to others as background characters and explicit characters which again coincides with Licht’s other words of people not grasping the story around them. The usage of all these terms paint a clear metafictional element in the series and does not coincide with your interpretation of it simply being “altering history” as no mention of this was made in the scans provided.

yeah it is called 4th wall breaking for a reason. it not a metafiction element, when a fictional character acknowledges they are in a story, it is 4th wall awareness.

….like a video game? Something Arthur was literally “changing the narrative” around him so the world matched the video game that he was playing literally just moments earlier. All 2-D pixels and all. Directly showcasing another medium.

all these shows is that he went to fight dragon, which plot was been manipulated here? cause I really do not get this part

Right…but the issue is it’s not just him “turning fictional stories real,” again it’s very plainly specified what Arthur’s power is. It’s the power to change the narrative itself. Not just “altering reality”, the statement wouldn’t have been made the way it was if that was the case. The narrative of the structure of the story they’re in which was literally clarified to us 3 chapters prior to Arthur’s statement.

I will not address this again, this was not made in relation to any chapter prior and it was not arthur that was speaking here by the way, it was a narrator, and it was explaining how arthur now has the power to fight dragon and change the course of the story.

he’s not just making fiction to reality though he’s directly having himself be the main character of the story he set himself up in.

if this was plot manipulation, his closest friend (shinra) will be dead and it will be because both of them fought to death, or you think Dragon is his closest friend? and that will not be right also since he got to dragon's lair at the end of the game meaning his closest friend is not dragon, his comrades would die before he gets to dragon, (meaning company 8). his village (probably tokyo) would also burn before he fought dragon.
That is what plot manipulation would be while he is playing the game.

Just like that in a video game which he was just playing moments earlier.

You do realize that all these are not happening cause of arthur changing the plot but rather they are manifesting cause that is what he thinks is happening?

Which is why he began to just manifest abilities on the fly such as teleportation or other such things like being capable of regenerating himself.

first, your scan here shows nothing. aside that, all these mentioned are possible through subjective reality

Nothing here is contradicting the multitude of statements showcasing the ability is based around the meta fictional elements of the story around them, not just simply subjective reality warping.

you have not even shown the plot manipulation here. there need to be a set plot, then there needs to be someone rewriting it actively and not through some paradox or action.

 

[Maitreya12]

yeah it is called 4th wall breaking for a reason. it not a metafiction element, when a fictional character acknowledges they are in a story, it is 4th wall awareness.

….fourth wall breaking literally classifies as a metafictional element on the very sandbox page for it

The reason it classifies as such is because acknowledging one’s self as being “part of the story” is a metafictional term as “story” shows the usage of a metafictional structure.

Anyways….I like how you missed the portion of a character literally disappearing from existence once her “role as a background character” was completed which inherently proves the essence of metafictional abilities through plot manipulation.

all these shows is that he went to fight dragon, which plot was been manipulated here? cause I really do not get this part

…you literally asked for a medium of information needing to be passed and I directly stated the medium of information being passed like Arthur’s video game.

I will not address this again, this was not made in relation to any chapter prior and it was not arthur that was speaking here by the way, it was a narrator, and it was explaining how arthur now has the power to fight dragon and change the course of the story.

Uh…yeah it was. Again, literally three chapters prior it was directly cited that the structure of the very story they were in was changing. So the follow up statement of Arthur’s powers being derived off of changing the narrative of that story further cements the notion as it’s being internally consistent with the series. Not with whatever thing you thought up of.

Also you literally just admitted to plot manipulation. Arthur “changing the course of the story” is plot manipulation. As the “story” is the metafictional structure they’re in and Arthur changing the course of that story, or the “narrative” as it is described, is manipulating the plot around that story.

if this was plot manipulation, his closest friend (shinra) will be dead and it will be because both of them fought to death, or you think Dragon is his closest friend? and that will not be right also since he got to dragon's lair at the end of the game meaning his closest friend is not dragon, his comrades would die before he gets to dragon, (meaning company 8). his village (probably tokyo) would also burn before he fought dragon.
That is what plot manipulation would be while he is playing the game.

Uh no….what you’re talking about is purely subjective reality where someone is turning fantasy into reality. What Arthur’s doing here though isn’t turning fantasy into reality…he’s literally changing the course of events of the story by playing the game.

You do realize that all these are not happening cause of arthur changing the plot but rather they are manifesting cause that is what he thinks is happening?

…no it’s literally from his changing the plot since nothing is being “manifested” as he’s playing the video game. The course of events of the characters and actions are simply being changed to coincide along with the video game Arthur is playing. Literally straight plot manipulation.

first, your scan here shows nothing. aside that, all these mentioned are possible through subjective reality

That doesn’t contradict my position. Subjective reality can be done through plot manipulation so I don’t know why you see this as a counter in any way. An ability having the result of another ability doesn’t thereby mean your power wasn’t derived off of that original power used.

you have not even shown the plot manipulation here. there need to be a set plot, then there needs to be someone rewriting it actively and not through some paradox or action.

Yeah…a set plot with defined characters in it being part of the story they’re in. Ok check. Someone actively changing the course of that plot or narrative…check as well.

Literally all criteria was met.

 

[Arkenis]

Also you literally just admitted to plot manipulation. Arthur “changing the course of the story” is plot manipulation. As the “story” is the metafictional structure they’re in and Arthur changing the course of that story, or the “narrative” as it is described, is manipulating the plot around that story.

Agree to this, not entirely sure of the whole argument, but even if Arthur can only manipulate the story of the knight and the dragon, that is still plot manip just on a smaller scale. Adolla would be the one who has it on a higher level.

 

[The_Emperor4th]

Probably won't be able to reply after this message. :v

It isn’t just about the “changing the narrative” statement, but from the multitude of other statements directly supporting this metafictional notion such as the structure of the very story itself of the world they’re in being altered as well as the direct citation of the characters being labeled as either “explicit or background characters” with them straight up vanishing from existence the moment their “role as background characters”!is finished.

It’s even noted that the characters themselves don’t even recall the other’s name, they’re simply referred to as “Natusuo’s mother” like a character is in a story. Not like an actual name a person has, which clearly establishes metafictional shenanigans going on I think.

Uhh, seems pretty vague to me….

I exactly not sure how this will be some kind of metafictional evidence for the verse, I would say that this is just a side character or what I usually called is “NPC” in general manga, realizing that they are just a mere exhibition, which is sometimes just jokes or expression in the sense of 4th wall break to the readers. What's more, the people there or “character background” (which is what the author describes), will fall into flames/“despair” and vanish because Adolla, which is what happened to the mom when she openly rejects “s*x appeal”, that becomes some kind of “hope” for the them to survive from the great cataclysm. And thus, probably explaining why Tatsuto mom suddenly vanished at that panel, nothing there referring to erase via plot or it’s provided metafictional to be the plot manipulation.

It’s not that everything he imagines in the game is becoming part of reality, it’s that he’s “changed the narrative” so that he himself is that main character of the video game. Hence why he is changing the narrative of the story itself so that he is the main character like one would find in a video game.

Your argument is based on only 1 statement directly about him being able to change the narrative. Again, which is very vague. He imagines that he wants to be the knight king after he simply finished the game that he played, which to boost his delusional to defeat the dragon. And by boosting I mean his ability to imagine. However, nothing here explicitly stated that his imagination can change the narrative.

And being able to imagine being a main character, without any concrete proof and further explanation, doesn't necessarily give you plot hax.

I’m getting the conclusion that this is plot manipulation from the multitude of evidence citing metafictional terms and structures and the direct citation of Arthur’s ability being a result of changing the narrative surrounding that metafictional structure.

Arthur’s abilities being similar to things like subjective reality doesn’t contradict or dispute the notion of plot manipulation being proposed. Often times the effect of one power can be likened to another, an example of this is how you can get similarly desired results from usage of the ability causality manipulation as you could if you were using reality warping. But just because you could use your causality manipulation to get the result of reality warping, doesn’t mean you didn’t use causality manipulation.

However just because the same result can be achieved by another power doesn’t dispute the notion that the feat was performed by the specific power clarified. Similarly so while the desired result of Arthur’s power can be akin to subjective reality warping, it doesn’t dispute the notion that his powers are derived off of plot manipulation as is specified in the series itself.

The thing is, Plot Manipulation is much more specific than causality manipulation, having unique mechanic with specific application and common enough that should be its own page, you don't give to a character who has causality manipulation or reality warping in profile straight up to plot manipulation just because these three abilities have similarities, right?

Changing the structure of the story and the narrative to that of a video game isn’t literally plot manipulating?

Again this doesn’t dispute the notion of it being plot manipulation.

I would love to address that the fact that Arthur been said to be able to “change the structure of the story and the narrative to that of a video game”, which become some sort of evidence for your arguments.

The fact that “featured” that Vulcan talking about actually is the new Excalibur that that he made for Arthur. Arthur simply adding the featured that Vulcan never put in the Excalibur by imagines it . Nothing there referring to change the story of the game.

Heck, even they didn't finish their game in the first place, before Arthur showed his abilities.

It is not simply a metaphor as this notion of “the structure of the story” being altered is repeated multiple times and the fact that they are literally likened to being characters one would find in a story cements the notion that they are talking purely literally here.

I don't think I need to response to this, because all the scans you've shown are still the same, just with different explanations.