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The Problems With Tier 0 (Staff Only)

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What do you think DarkLK and Sera? Would renaming tier 0 to High Outerverse level and adding Matthew's clarifications be enough to avoid misunderstandings?
 
So, a quick questions:

If we do this, what is the limitation we are setting within High 1-A within a verse? Does it remain at 2, similar to how right now, we have tried to cap things at "one High 1-A, one 0"? Are there only ever two if we have a verse which has a being who meets all requirements for High 1-A, and then another being who is "above" them and appears to be completely and utterly boundless within the verse, whereas otherwise a verse will only have up to a single High 1-A?
 
@Dargoo People wouldn't necessarily need to wade through tier 1, months ago I heard a proposal of the creation of a "Tier High 1-A" category, for the only sub-tier to have a category, to retain this searchability.
 
@Azathoth

I think that it would be theoretically possible to have several tier High 1-A/0 characters within a setting, not just a few, but we likely do not feature any franchises wherein this applies.
 
@Ant

I suppose it would be a question of "where do we draw the line?", then.

Would we need to readjust things like normal Outer Gods, Voyagers, or similar beings in other franchises to High 1-A with these new rules? Sometimes, things aren't rated as High 1-A simply because a High 1-A and 0 already exist. What do we do when these restrictions are gone?

It just seems like a good idea to address this sort of thing before applying the change itself, so that things go as smoothly as possible and remain internally consistent.
 
That is a good question. Even Bernkastel and Lambdadelta may technically be higher in stature than The One-Above-All and the Overmonitor for all that I know.
 
tbh if we remove this we should probs give smth akin to a at least tier 1-A and such i guess
 
Setting some sort of numeric limit seems arbitrary. Unlike 0. the presence of another equal or greater being wouldn't affect the tiering so I don't see why having multiple such beings would make a difference. If they meet the requirements, they should be High 1-A regardless of how many there are.
 
Agreed with Job's argument, minus the part of them being "high 1-A" now.
 
If high 1-A is just transcending 1-A the same way 1-A transcends tier 11 then wouldnt this make outer gods from cthulu mythos High 1-A?
 
Read this post said:
If high 1-A is just transcending 1-A the same way 1-A transcends tier 11 then wouldnt this make outer gods from cthulu mythos High 1-A?
Click to expand...
You could (relatively easily) make a case for that, which is part of why I'm questioning making High 1-A into just "better 1-A" without any sort of plan beyond that, which is what we should be working out.

If there is no limit, then I feel little actually distinguishes this from "just notably higher 1-A", at which point the "High" in the tier may not even exist. 1-A could just go on endlessly to similar effect.
 
I think my tiering system for 1-A may be some use here. What if high 1-A were the requirements you stated and tier 0 was trancending high 1-A the same way 1-A transcends tier 11. Or maybe something greater like repeating that transcendence infinitely?

Or we could use that as some kind of Sub-Tiering system exclusively for 1-A
 
I think it should only be a few. I don't think the Voyagers should be High 1-A, only a few beings per verse.

My plan was never to make High 1-A be just 1-A +1
 
The description for High 1-A already requires transcendence over far more than just space and time, seems different enough to me.
 
Matthew Schroeder said:
I think it should only be a few. I don't think the Voyagers should be High 1-A, only a few beings per verse.
My plan was never to make High 1-A be just 1-A +1
Click to expand...
Yeah, your intent was pretty clear. I'm more worried about what it could be turned into without everyone paying proper attention, hence why I still think keeping some kind of limit is a good idea. The question is of what that limit should be (though as of right now, I'm assuming 2 would be the default) and how we should express it.
 
DarkLK might define a tier for characters that unfathomably transcend the requirements for High 1-A later on, but he has not done so yet, and the only franchises in this wiki that qualify seem to be Umineko, the Cthulhu Mythos, and Ichiban Uchiro No Daimaou.
 
2 or 3 is fine I think.

It makes sense for verses which have dualistic supreme beings, or something like Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth. Or The Writer and the Overvoid from DC.
 
AKM sama said:
High 1-A sounds more in line with our tiering system imo. I agree with Matt and LK.
Click to expand...
This is something I strongly agree. Tier 0 just sounds wrong to me.
 
Well, I personally think that it depends on how well it would be defined, but that is a much later problem, so we probably shouldn't talk about it now.
 
I still disagree with placing a specific limit on the number of High 1-As per verse but I'll see how things go.
 
Jobbo said:
I still disagree with placing a specific limit on the number of High 1-As per verse but I'll see how things go.
Click to expand...
I believe the issue here is, that without any sort of limit, there really isn't any fundamental difference between it and normal 1-A. It actually is just 1-A+1, which even within the current system, isn't how it works.
 
As I mentioned earlier, the positive aspect of calling High Outerverse level High 1-A is that it would help to avoid misunderstandings that the characters within it are absolute, whereas naming it Tier 0 would be more convenient and appealing for our larger audience/casual visitors.
 
Like I keep saying, High 1-A should work exactly as High 1-A / 0 works out now. It's not going to be just "Better 1-A". It's meant to be exclusive to supreme / all-powerful entities within their verse. Being infinite ^ infinite times above baseline 1-A isn't going to give you High 1-A if you're part of an entire race and is just dreamt by another being.
 
Our members also voted that they liked tier 0 better in a poll, although that obviously isn't an argument in itself.
 
All the tiers up to now are the previous tier +1. You just increase the amount of energy or the number of dimensions.

That aside, High 1-A still wouldn't just be immeasurably transcending 1-As, the description itself specifies more conditions.
 
Well, the minimum requirement for High 1-A/0 should definitely still be to transcend regular 1-A characters as they transcend tier 10 and 11.
 
Jobbo said:
All the tiers up to now are the previous tier +1. You just increase the amount of energy or the number of dimensions.
Click to expand...
1-A itself already breaks from this. It is quite a bit different than the tiers before it (you can't reach it by stacking anything), and already provides a tier for things that are well beyond normal ideas of "power", in most cases.

High 1-A has to be different than this, otherwise it isn't really a different tier, and doesn't really need to exist. If it can apply to an endless number of things within a verse, it isn't really/shouldn't be High 1-A.
 
Well, personally I think that there should eventually be two tiers above 1-A. High 1-A for characters that transcend these characters like they transcend ordinary 3-D mortals, and something else for the characters that enter Suggsverse territory in hierarchies unfathomably above this, but the only ones that do are likely The Creator, Featherine, The Law of Identity, Azathoth, and maybe Yog-Sothoth.

That is far too complicated to handle now though.
 
I am strongly opposed to making just plain 1-A our highest tier in any case.
 
Antvasima.

If you are admiting that something can be above High 1-A / 0, then there is no point in having High 1-A / 0 to begin with.

This whole ploy is just a favouritism idea that's not set in stone, is just pushed by one person and isn't even for VBW. But you're holding onto it as if it's already confirmed.

It shouldn't be a thing ever.
 
If you limit the number, you'd once again run into the problem of 1-As from one verse seeming superior to High 1-As from another.

And High 1-A does require transcending far more than 1-A too, : "including existence and nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism and transdualism, the concepts of life and death, etc."

But it doesn't seem like this will go anywhere so I'll stop arguing this position.
 
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