The Problems With Tier 0 (Staff Only)

[DarkLK]

Suggest adding a footnote beside them to indicate their top dog status should be needed though. Tier 0 act like a Hall of Fame of sort for the Champion among High 1-A after all.

The problem is that they are not such champions. At least not enough to get a separate tier.

 

[Antvasima]

High 1-A is more suitable term because it makes it clear that this is not a separate tier, but simply a very powerful 1-A. The preservation of tier 0 will continue to maintain the illusion that this is some kind of unattainable exceptional tier, which exists by some very different rules.

I agree with this.

 

[Sera_EX]

Due to derailing this is now Staff Only.

I edited the OP for you.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Exactly. The worship of Tier 0 as an almost sacred uber-tier is another problem in the community that needs to end as fast as possible.

 

[Jockey-1337]

Tier High 1-A is our president!

Yeah, but I still feal like adding a Godly 1-A makes more sense.
This way we'll know what characters surpass High 1-A characters that already are ranked as such.

Nah. There should be only 1 High 1-A per fictional universe and only if it fully transcends all other 1-As.


High 1-A (TOAA, Kami Tenchi) are characters who transcend baseline 1-As.

Strong 1-As (someones like the Star Maker or Hajun) are characters who simply infinitely or finitely stronger than baseline 1-As.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

High 1-A is more suitable term because it makes it clear that this is not a separate tier, but simply a very powerful 1-A. The preservation of tier 0 will continue to maintain the illusion that this is some kind of unattainable exceptional tier, which exists by some very different rules.

I agree with this.

I think this is the most sensible idea here. We can just add a High 1-A Category instead.

 

[Andykhang]

@DarkLK That depend on whether or not you get character that's the literal representation of "impossible", and lied at the end of "beyond everything" where all Omnipotence (High 1-A)tried to reach or not.

Anyway, it doesn't really change the fact that tier 0 is reserve for the most powerful of their respective High 1-A verse. Having some way to point that out is still convenient

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

A good argument for the problems of Tier 0 lies in Ein Sof, the concept of Boundlessness in Kabbalah which we've used to explain Tier 0 for the longest time... Isn't Omnipresent nor Omniscient.

Yet philosophically / theologically speaking, it is undoubtedly Omnipotent.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with a High 1-A category.

 

[AKM sama]

Agreed.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I have a proposal.

How about instead of removing Tier 0, we change the definition of Tier 0 with that of Tier High 1-A and then move all the High 1-As to the new Tier 0?

This essentially accomplises the same exact thing that Matt is suggesting, however it maintains a "Tier 0", it just merges High 1-A and 0 to a different number while removing High 1-A.

I feel like the term Tier 0 is very synonymous with the wiki and it would be nice to keep it, even if it's just under a new flag and with more characters.

TL, DR: We should change the definition of Tier 0 to that of Tier High 1-A, then move all High 1-As to Tier 0 and remove High 1-A. This does exactly the same thing as Matt proposes.

 

[Celestial_Pegasus]

I agree with merging tier 0 into high 1-A.

 

[Andytrenom]

I agree with Dargoo, no need to remove such an iconic rating if there's no need to remove it...

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Yeah, it's legit the same thing Matt proposes.

Just change the definition of 0 to what we have for High 1-A, move all High 1-As to 0, then remove the now redundant High 1-A.

Same objective accomplished, but we keep an iconic wiki rating under a new definition.

 

[Antvasima]

@Dargoo

I have talked with DarkLK about this previously, and although I agree with you about that it is unfortunate to lose an iconic rating that is a fun attraction for our visitors, the problem with keeping it is that the characters within it are perceived as beyond the system and impossible to exceed, even though they are not.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Ultimately it's a cosmetic difference.

 

[Ultima_Reality]

I agree with what Matt proposed.

 

[Ren_Fujii]

(sorry if i am interfering, but i have a few questions) what does define the tier High 1-A? Should be better removing both High 1-A and 0? the only thing that matters is how far you are into the tier 1-A, from what i know the tier High 1-A doesn't define exactly how much you are far into the 1-A level, it should have a defined level For example "characters who are infinite degrees above the 1-A level" or something like that The current explanation is "The ones that do qualify would recurrently be equivalent to Tier 0 characters, if not for the presence of one such being within their respective franchises, and/or some minor limitation." with the removing of tier 0, this will not make sense anymore

 

[Antvasima]

We will have to figure out an appropriate definition text for High 1-A, yes.

DarkLK should likely be of great help with this, if he is interested in helping out.

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

I'm equally fine with both Matt's and Dargoo's proposals, although I'm leaning towards Dargoo's.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

We will have to figure out an appropriate definition text for High 1-A, yes.
DarkLK should likely be of great help with this, if he is interested in helping out.

Agree.

 

[Antvasima]

Can non-staff please stop spamming this staff only discussion?

 

[Ren_Fujii]

The tier High 1-A should have an explanation like "infinite degrees of transcendence above 1-A", but it would be still fallacy in my opinion from what i have read from the Umineko thread, Bernkastel should be above this level (honestly from what i've read from the Umineko thread she should be even above Kami Tenchi, TOAA and Yog, Umineko's Cosmology is insanely big ) That's why i think that even the High 1-A should be removed, every 1-A should be judged differently according to their level of transcendence

 

[First_Witch]

The tier High 1-A should have an explanation like
"infinite degrees of transcendence above 1-A", but it would be still fallacy in my opinion from what i have read from the Umineko thread, Bernkastel should be above this level (honestly from what i've read from the Umineko thread she should be even above Kami Tenchi, TOAA and Yog, Umineko's Cosmology is insanely big ) That's why i think that even the High 1-A should be removed, every 1-A should be judged differently according to their level of transcendence

1. Staff only thread

2. Wrong, infinite trancendence above 1A is the bare minimum that needs to be fulfilled to be considered high 1A but this has nothing to do with the topic at hand so drop it.

 

[Antvasima]

@Ren Fujii

I technically agree that some Umineko characters likely transcend most of the current High 1-A and 0 characters, but that is a later problem.

The current absolute minimum is to be to tier 1-A characters as they are to tier 10 and 11, which is far beyond infinite infinities greater, as you seem to suggest.

 

[Magi_Hussie]

I agree with the suggestion of removing Tier 0 and merging it with High 1-A.

 

[Monarch_Laciel]

I like Dargo's idea

 

[Sera_EX]

Guys they said we're supposed to stop interfering, even if we're adding on to some degree, they're smarter than us.

I don't like staff only as much as the next guy, but the thread has been derailed with nonsense as it is. Don't assume we're insulting anyone's intelligence.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Umineko doesn't go beyond Tier 0 lmao.

 

[Sera_EX]

Umineko does not go beyond Tier 0. What is this Suggsverse?

 

[PrettyFearMachine]

Umineko does not go beyond Tier 0. What is this Medaka Box?

FTFY

 

[Ren_Fujii]

I wasn't saying that, i was just saying that tier High 1-A would need a clear explanation. I didn't say that Umineko is beyond tier 0, i said that Umineko characters like Bernkastel are stronger than TOAA and Kami Tenchi, according to her level of transcendence (Umineko Cosmology is far bigger than Marvel or Tenchi Muyo, read the Umineko thread where DarkLK explained the cosmology)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

In regards to the reasoning... Something like this?

High 1-A: High Outerverse level

Characters which far exceed the requirements for Tier 1-A, standing as supreme or nearly so within their own verses, and displaying little to no limitations. Such characters will usually be seem as "boundless", standing hierarchically above everything, including existence and nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism and transdualism, the concepts of life and death, etc.

It's important to state that such characters aren't Omnipotent, however, as such a concept isn't well suited for our Tiering System (See the Omnipotence page for further explanations). High Outerversal characters, although immeasurably powerful, can display minor weakness and limitations, and be rivaled or even surpassed by other beings within their respective verses.

 

[Sera_EX]

That was a response to Ant (and anyone else who thinks that). Not you, Ren.

 

[Sera_EX]

Limitations shouldn't be used in the definition at all. Even "little to no limits" falls under No Limits Fallacy and is the definition for the oxymoronic questionable omnipotence.

The word Supreme shouldn't be used either. That too should have nothing to do with High 1-A, as there can be more than one.

Either consistently use omnipotence and all of its applications (Almighty God, Supreme Being, unsurpassed being, etc.) or not at all. There can be no blending of the two.

 

[Antvasima]

As Ren said, all that I meant was that the Umineko cosmology reaches far higher than most other similarly high-tiered verses. That is all.

However, that is not relevant to this discussion, and we should stop arguing about it.

 

[DarkLK]

I think we need more clear criteria about the superiority over baseline 1-A. So that we do not get each "infinitely above 1-A" as a candidate here.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Limitations shouldn't be used in the definition at all. Even "little to no limits" falls under No Limits Fallacy and is the definition for the oxymoronic questionable omnipotence.
The word Supreme shouldn't be used either. That too should have nothing to do with High 1-A, as there can be more than one.

Either consistently use omnipotence and all of its applications (Almighty God, Supreme Being, unsurpassed being, etc.) or not at all. There can be no blending of the two.

How would you change it?

 

[Antvasima]

High 1-A: High Outerverse level

Characters that far exceed the requirements for Tier 1-A. Such characters will usually be seen as "boundless", standing hierarchically above everything, including existence and nonexistence, possibility, causality, dualism and transdualism, the concepts of life and death, etcetera.

It is important to note that such characters are not omnipotent, as such a concept isn't well suited for our tiering system (See the Omnipotence page for further explanations). High outerversal characters, although immeasurably powerful, can display minor weaknesses and limitations, and be rivaled or even surpassed by other beings within their respective verses.

My apologies, but I do not particularly like that you got rid of the minimum requirement of transcending 1-A characters like they transcend ordinary mortals, and would prefer input from DarkLK before we rush into changing such an important definition.

That said, I think that it is mostly a good draft, and made some minor structure tweaks, but I am very careful regarding issues like this, and will also go to bed soon.

 

[Sera_EX]

"High 1-As are to 1-As, what 1-As are to 10-Bs/11s" is fine. We just need to put it into a defintion and keep the word "limitations" out of it.