The Pokémon Legends: Arceus CRT (SPOILERS)

[GodlyCharmander]

Except they clearly can fight with them or even kill them (that library with the steel badge talks about a guy in the past doing so).

Great, that guy in particular scales to 8-A or whatever his Pokemon was.

We have humans beating Pokemon to death

A singular example. Why are you using plural.

fighting their Pokemon while in an argument, fighting enraged Pokemon, etc...

The specific humans who did so will scale, not the entire human race.
The protagonist doesn't do that.
General doesn't do that.
No human in Hisui does that.
Therefore their AP don't scale. The whole plot revolves around how even the smallest ************ is too strong for any normal person, it makes no sense to say they have comparable AP.
Also, pretty sure most of those feats were in other media, such as the manga and the anime. I do know some happen in the games, but they're scarce at best.

Also, remember this is a PL:A CRT, not a general Pokemon CRT. If you have no reason to scale Hisuian Humans to Pokemon, then don't bring up irrelevant stuff

 

[QuasiYuri]

Great, that guy in particular scales to 8-A or whatever his Pokemon was.

A singular example. Why are you using plural.

Because there's way more than a single example? The "beating to death" I was referring to were random Team Rocket grunts killing a Marowak.

The specific humans who did so will scale, not the entire human race.
The protagonist doesn't do that.
General doesn't do that.
No human in Hisui does that.
Therefore their AP don't scale.

So random humans with no indication of being stronger than others are billions of times stronger ?

The whole plot revolves around how even the smallest ************ is too strong for any normal person, it makes no sense to say they have comparable AP.

Yet some humans can fight Pokemon, as shown in the OP.

Also, pretty sure most of those feats were in other media, such as the manga and the anime. I do know some happen in the games, but they're scarce at best.

We consider all of them to be equally canon.

Also, remember this is a PL:A CRT, not a general Pokemon CRT. If you have no reason to scale Hisuian Humans to Pokemon, then don't bring up irrelevant stuff

How is it irrelevant ? It's clear cases that justify making them fully scale.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Because there's way more than a single example? The "beating to death" I was referring to were random Team Rocket grunts killing a Marowak.

I did not know that. Did they use weapons to do that? Do we know how that came to be?

So random humans with no indication of being stronger than others are billions of times stronger?

Yes. Protagonist is a whole unquantifiably infinite above everyone else in durability, not really surprising. And, "random" is not an argument, we do not know how these humans are that strong, as most times (in the Anime, and in the Manga), Pokemon can easily overpower Humans. I assume these examples are not from the games so, please only bring up game-related stuff.

Yet some humans can fight Pokemon, as shown in the OP.

Tank attacks from. Not fight. The "rival" got badly injured by a Shinx's Thundershock.
Also if "Some" people can """fight""" Pokemon, and "most" people cannot, then it obviously doesn't scale to any human, as they differ a lot in power.

We consider all of them to be equally canon.

You're under the wrong idea on how we treat the canon here.
The Pokémon Profiles are composite, taking stuff from the Anime, the games, and the manga.
The specific profiles, such as Ash Pikachu, or specific characters (such as Ash) only take stuff from their canon.
They're not all inherently connected (due to jarring and blantant contradictions), our Pokemon profiles are just composite.

How is it irrelevant ? It's clear cases that justify making them fully scale.

The unrelated media is irrelevant, as it has no connection to PL:A.

 

[GyroNutz]

You're under the wrong idea on how we treat the canon here.
The Pokémon Profiles are composite, taking stuff from the Anime, the games, and the manga.
The specific profiles, such as Ash Pikachu, or specific characters (such as Ash) only take stuff from their canon.
They're not all inherently connected (due to jarring and blantant contradictions), our Pokemon profiles are just composite.

That's misleading, the majority of the franchise is indeed connected and canon to different "parts" of the franchise. The anime, movies and core games for instance are related through numerous references to one another and by WoG, putting them in the same multiverse. There's no such thing as composite profiles anymore really, instead we have species profiles, which is why we don't include outliers to the species (like Ash's Pikachu, PMD Grovyle, etc) in their profiles.

Anyway, for the OP, I won't touch on Low 1-C Arceus yet. Otherwise, can we get a full translation for the High 3-A statement?

I agree with limited size manip for all Pokemon, and MHS+ to FTL reactions for trainers. I think that's been touched on before, but it's impossible for trainers to give commands to Pokemon that blitz them over a million times over, and it is shown in basically all media that Pokemon can ignore commands and act on their own instead (also wild Pokemon exist). High 7-A+ durability protagonist seems fine too.

I also do agree with the Low 7-B upgrade, but there's more to that than just the new statement.

 

[Arceus0x]

So random humans with no indication of being stronger than others are billions of times stronger ?

That factor was considered irrelevant to you when i tried upgrading everyone's speed to the same one, now you're using it to argue against this CRT? Ngl that's a bruh moment

 

[QuasiYuri]

That factor was considered irrelevant to you when i tried upgrading everyone's speed to the same one, now you're using it to argue against this CRT? Ngl that's a bruh moment

Unrelated. Speed one has its own issues and the only proof to scale first stages was trained Pokemon.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I did not know that. Did they use weapons to do that? Do we know how that came to be?

They just beat him up with a stick (well electrified stick iirc but dude's a ground type).

Yes. Protagonist is a whole unquantifiably infinite above everyone else in durability, not really surprising. And, "random" is not an argument, we do not know how these humans are that strong, as most times (in the Anime, and in the Manga), Pokemon can easily overpower Humans. I assume these examples are not from the games so, please only bring up game-related stuff.

You have no reason to refute non-game stuff. Otherwise make a thread to debunk the current canon we use.
Also that's not protagonist only.

Tank attacks from. Not fight. The "rival" got badly injured by a Shinx's Thundershock.
Also if "Some" people can """fight""" Pokemon, and "most" people cannot, then it obviously doesn't scale to any human, as they differ a lot in power.

Already said so. Just that it still would scale to at very least martial artists and ancient people given how it is more or less the norm for them.

You're under the wrong idea on how we treat the canon here.
The Pokémon Profiles are composite, taking stuff from the Anime, the games, and the manga.
The specific profiles, such as Ash Pikachu, or specific characters (such as Ash) only take stuff from their canon.
They're not all inherently connected (due to jarring and blantant contradictions), our Pokemon profiles are just composite.

That's flat out wrong. Composite isn't even a thing anymore and GyroNutz explained how it actually works.
We consider them as equally canon.

The unrelated media is irrelevant, as it has no connection to PL:A.

All canon.

 

[Emerald]

Just a reminder that children are stated to be stronger than Dreepy

 

[DaReaperMan]

Thats just his light transforming into his avatar

Actually that's both Elemental intangibility and Transformation/shape-shifting.

 

[Arceus0x]

Actually that's both Elemental intangibility and Transformation/shape-shifting.

Everybody gangsta til Arceus turns into a convertible

 

[GodlyCharmander]

That's misleading, the majority of the franchise is indeed connected and canon to different "parts" of the franchise. The anime, movies and core games for instance are related through numerous references to one another and by WoG, putting them in the same multiverse. There's no such thing as composite profiles anymore really, instead we have species profiles, which is why we don't include outliers to the species (like Ash's Pikachu, PMD Grovyle, etc) in their profiles.

We still do not take feats from the Anime, and apply for the core games, since they're from a different universe altogether.

Anyway, for the OP, I won't touch on Low 1-C Arceus yet. Otherwise, can we get a full translation for the High 3-A statement?

On it.

High 7-A+ durability protagonist seems fine too.

It would be "High 7-A+" at the start of the game. Post-Game protagonist is 2-B.

 

[Arceus0x]

We still do not take feats from the Anime, and apply for the core games, since they're from a different universe altogether.

.. We kinda do already. Literally all LS feats come from anime and all FTL speed feats as well

 

[GodlyCharmander]

They just beat him up with a stick (well electrified stick iirc but dude's a ground type).

Wait, we actually see that? Damn, where?

Also "8-A with a weapon" seems fine for particularly strong non-martial artist humans

You have no reason to refute non-game stuff. Otherwise make a thread to debunk the current canon we use.
Also that's not protagonist only.

We do not consider them part of the same universe.
Anyway, could you please cite the statements and feats themselves (and where they're from), so I can look into them?

Already said so. Just that it still would scale to at very least martial artists and ancient people given how it is more or less the norm for them.

Most Ancient People can't fight Pokemon. Again, no one fought one directly, most times the report say they got nearly killed by one. Who, in the ancient times, fought a Pokemon? I am unaware of any statements or feats which seem to indicate so.

That's flat out wrong. Composite isn't even a thing anymore and GyroNutz explained how it actually works.
We consider them as equally canon.

They're still not part of the same universe, therefore can't be scaled.

All canon.

Different universe.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

.. We kinda do already. Literally all LS feats come from anime and all FTL speed feats as well

Species profiles are considered to be comparable for most universes, outlier profiles are not used anymore.

We obviously can't do that to humans, as they're not generalized as a species, but as individual characters (with their own particular strengths)

 

[Arceus0x]

Species profiles are considered to be comparable for most universes, outlier profiles are not used anymore.

We obviously can't do that to humans, as they're not generalized as a species, but as individual characters (with their own particular strengths)

Oh yeah, when it comes to humans we don't.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

Actually that's both Elemental intangibility and Transformation/shape-shifting.

beyond dimensional existence too

 

[GodlyCharmander]

beyond dimensional existence too

What?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Wait, we actually see that? Damn, where?

I think it happens both in the first season of Pokemon and the first manga?
Don't remember if it happens in the game, but you have random grunts cutting Slowpokes' tail.

Also "8-A with a weapon" seems fine for particularly strong non-martial artist humans

These grunts were never implied to be particularly strong.

We do not consider them part of the same universe.

Same multiverse.

Anyway, could you please cite the statements and feats themselves (and where they're from), so I can look into them?

I'll try to collect most of them.

Most Ancient People can't fight Pokemon. Again, no one fought one directly, most times the report say they got nearly killed by one. Who, in the ancient times, fought a Pokemon? I am unaware of any statements or feats which seem to indicate so.

It's said in Platinum, in that library where you get the steel badge.
Plus wasn't that one guard defending the village from Pokemon? There's also Kamado as shown in the OP.

They're still not part of the same universe, therefore can't be scaled.

Same multiverse, which often has the same characters with no difference in their capabilities.

Different universe.

Same multiverse.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

I think it happens both in the first season of Pokemon and the first manga?
Don't remember if it happens in the game, but you have random grunts cutting Slowpokes' tail.

I see. In the games, I don't think a statement like that exists, and the whole thing is vague, their attempt to steal Cubone skulls from Lavender Town resulted in a hostage situation and the death of a Marowak. It's entirely plausible, and even probable that they used their Pokemon during their invasion of Pokemon Tower.

These grunts were never implied to be particularly strong.

We don't generalize humans as a species. If they did something other people cannot, they are particularly strong.

Same Multiverse

That doesn't really answer the "different universe" argument. It's a completely alternative world from the core games. Characters from different universes are not to be scaled to their alternative counterpart without a direct reason for it.

I'll try to collect most of them.

Thank you.

It's said in Platinum, in that library where you get the steel badge.

I see. I will try looking into it, but
judging by my current knowledge, if it was impressive enough to be documented, then it certainly doesn't scale to anyone but the guy himself.

Actually, that's a myth, no? At 4:25, it states he did harm to Pokemon with a sword, and it is a myth.

Plus wasn't that one guard defending the village from Pokemon? There's also Kamado as shown in the OP.

Huh? Do we know how they do it?
Kamado? I don't think there's anything saying he can fight Pokemon in the OP.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I see. In the games, I don't think a statement like that exists, and the whole thing is vague, their attempt to steal Cubone skulls from Lavender Town resulted in a hostage situation and the death of a Marowak. It's entirely plausible, and even probable that they used their Pokemon during their invasion of Pokemon Tower.

If the anime and manga shares the same precision as to how Marowak died, then I would say it's more logic to assume the same happened in the games.

We don't generalize humans as a species. If they did something other people cannot, they are particularly strong.

We actually do for several verses if the individuals are just random, such as Danganronpa.

That doesn't really answer the "different universe" argument. It's a completely alternative world from the core games. Characters from different universes are not to be scaled to their alternative counterpart without a direct reason for it.

I'm pretty sure their profiles consider them as the exact same, as seen on Sabrina's profile.

Actually, that's a myth, no? At 4:25, it states he did harm to Pokemon with a sword, and it is a myth.

It being a myth isn't really synonymous of false. Since we consider the myths in this library as fact.
But yeah it's with a sword.

Huh? Do we know how they do it?
Kamado? I don't think there's anything saying he can fight Pokemon in the OP.

Not sure, but it's how dude got his pokemon iirc.

Oh mb. Kamado thing might have been sent in the other thread.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

If the anime and manga shares the same precision as to how Marowak died, then I would say it's more logic to assume the same happened in the games.

Huh, I guess that's fair. But the Anime and the Manga adapts the games, not the other way around, so I don't think you can just take their adaptation of a vague event and say it's how it happened in the games themselves.

That's just my opinion, I will concede on this.

We actually do for several verses if the individuals are just random, such as Danganronpa.

I was referring to Pokémon specifically. Humans vary a lot in the Anime and in the Manga, people with no indication of being strong (as you said) can kill Pokemon, but other times, people equally as weak in a narrative sense gets easily overpowered by Pokemon on the same caliber.
it's just not reliable to say that, because X person did something, then Y should scale without a direct comparison between the two.

I'm pretty sure their profiles consider them as the exact same, as seen on Sabrina's profile.

That's quite weird, because it would be considered as a composite profile, since there is differences in their story.

It being a myth isn't really synonymous of false. Since we consider the myths in this library as fact.
But yeah it's with a sword.

Again, wouldn't this guy in particular scale to 8-A+ (or Low 7-B since upgrades incoming) with a Sword?

Not sure, but it's how dude got his pokemon iirc.

Oh mb. Kamado thing might have been sent in the other thread.

I believe the guard was too scared to catch a Wurmple. The Kamado thing would be great to help your argument, so if you know where you got it from, post it here.

 

[GyroNutz]

We still do not take feats from the Anime, and apply for the core games, since they're from a different universe altogether.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. An average Charizard in the core games is as strong as an average Charizard in the anime. Are you talking about individual characters, like Cynthia for instance?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Are you talking about individual characters, like Cynthia for instance?

Yes.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Otherwise, can we get a full translation for the High 3-A statement?

English version:

Japanese Ver.

神と畏れし伝説ヒスイの地にあり。誕生によりうつし世の壁消え去り延々と際限なき空出現したり。
"The legend of [Hisui], feared as a god, is located in the land of [Hisui]. With the birth of this legend, the walls of the world of images disappear and an endless sky appears."

the word for "endless" is 際限なき, which basically means "no limit/end"

 

[GyroNutz]

"Walls of the world of images"? Seems weird, but I suppose it's fine

 

[GodlyCharmander]

"Walls of the world of images"? Seems weird, but I suppose it's fine

The world started when the "spirit" became aware of it, so it's probably referring to that. It can also be translated as "The walls of the restrained world disappear" too

 

[QuasiYuri]

The world started when the "spirit" became aware of it, so it's probably referring to that. It can also be translated as "The walls of the restrained world disappear" too

What part is supposed to read as "restrained" tho? I just read "the walls of the world disappear(ed)". Though the High 3-A part is legit anyway.

 

[QuasiYuri]

I was referring to Pokémon specifically. Humans vary a lot in the Anime and in the Manga, people with no indication of being strong (as you said) can kill Pokemon, but other times, people equally as weak in a narrative sense gets easily overpowered by Pokemon on the same caliber.
it's just not reliable to say that, because X person did something, then Y should scale without a direct comparison between the two.

That's why it should only matter if the guy really is fodder. Although most actual fodder still wouldn't scale (or at very best downscale).

That's quite weird, because it would be considered as a composite profile, since there is differences in their story.

Eh, idk. Would need a change of standard I guess.

Again, wouldn't this guy in particular scale to 8-A+ (or Low 7-B since upgrades incoming) with a Sword?

The myth doesn't really intend it to be a particularly strong guy, just why you don't see guys cutting Pokémon all day in epic battle.

I believe the guard was too scared to catch a Wurmple. The Kamado thing would be great to help your argument, so if you know where you got it from, post it here.

Kamado thing seems to have been mentionned in the thread by others, so maybe they know where it is?

 

[GodlyCharmander]

What part is supposed to read as "restrained" tho? I just read "the walls of the world disappear(ed)". Though the High 3-A part is legit anyway.

I checked again, "うつし世" is more like "present world", I read "より" [Yori] as "Yoku", and thought of "Yokusei". mb

 

[Grand_Saver_Ritsuka]

Not sure about Low 1-C Arceus. You need wayyyy more then "surpassing time space" or low 1-C.

 

[theultimate5105]

Not sure about Low 1-C Arceus. You need wayyyy more then "surpassing time space" or low 1-C.

It’s not just surpassing space and time

 

[QuasiYuri]

Regarding cases where Poke guys tanked or fought Pokemon I could remember:

-Kiyo fought and defeated a Tyrogue in hand-to-hand battle.
-Chuck spars with his Machoke on a daily basis
-There was one guy who stopped an Onix with his bare hand, but I don't remember who exactly
-Professor Kukui often asks Rockruff to directly attack him
-Drayden spars with dragon pokemons
-Team Rocket Grunts killing that Marowake with a stick
-Team Rocket Grunts cutting Slowpokes' tail
-Magnus apparently arm-wrestled a Machamp
-Sinnoh 1st folk story basically say humans hunted Pokemon as food
-Although it may not be physically, Lapras is an overhunted Pokemon
-That one trainer who took Dragonite's Hyper Beam (and apparently appear in Pokemon Master as a guy traumatized by dragons)
-Ash kicking a Drapion so that he drops him
-Ash fighting Beedrills before getting overwhelmed
-Ash has a ton of stuff but it would be too specific
--Brock getting often hit by his own pokemon
-Professor Oak getting attacked by Pokemon he presents is a running gag in the early seasons
-All of James cases with his Pokemon launching themselves at him or Team Rocket getting blown up
-Pretty much anyone who fought back Team Rocket's Meowth

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

-There was one guy who stopped an Onix with his bare hand, but I don't remember who exactly

Hareta?

 

[QuasiYuri]

Hareta?

Nah, it was in the anime and in a dojo or something. Might have been Brock's dad.

I didn't include Hareta since we consider him as his own thing.

 

[GodlyCharmander]

Regarding cases where Poke guys tanked or fought Pokemon I could remember:

-Kiyo fought and defeated a Tyrogue in hand-to-hand battle.
-Chuck spars with his Machoke on a daily basis.

Both can be 8-A in AP. Chuck sparring with Machoke is not very relevant, as doubt it's a serious fight. Could Chuck ever damage Machoke? Either way, since he sparred with a Machoke, it's fair to say he is at least on Kiyo's level.

These feats, however, don't scale to anyone from Hisui.

There was one guy who stopped an Onix with his bare hand, but I don't remember who exactly.

Well, can't quite verify that, so I will not consider it

-Professor Kukui often asks Rockruff to directly attack him.

8-A durability, cool.

-Drayden spars with dragon pokemons.

He trains by wrestling with his Pokémon. I don't think training using your Pokémon means you're as strong as they are.

And this kind of training is very unique to people like him (Chuck, Kiyo), so it wouldn't scale to Hisuians anyway.

-Team Rocket Grunts killing that Marowake with a stick.
-Team Rocket Grunts cutting Slowpokes' tail

Fair. I don't think grunts from Team Rocket have any training in a physical sense. Do they?

-Magnus apparently arm-wrestled a Machamp.

That's LS, and I can't find anything on that.

-Sinnoh 1st folk story basically say humans hunted Pokemon as food.

Myths is a thing, a folk story, that's a nope. It's no different than a Urban Legend, most of the myths can be confirmed by other sources, and Arceus itself, but I don't think I can accept Folk Stories.

-Although it may not be physically, Lapras is an overhunted Pokemon.

It would be inefficient to NOT use your Pokémon to hunt another Pokémon.

-That one trainer who took Dragonite's Hyper Beam (and apparently appear in Pokemon Master as a guy traumatized by dragons)

Nice. High 7-A+ durability.

-Ash kicking a Drapion so that he drops him
-Ash fighting Beedrills before getting overwhelmed
-Ash has a ton of stuff but it would be too specific

Ash is incoherent as all hell, let's not use him for scaling, please.

--Brock getting often hit by his own pokemon
-Professor Oak getting attacked by Pokemon he presents is a running gag in the early seasons
-All of James cases with his Pokemon launching themselves at him or Team Rocket getting blown up
-Pretty much anyone who fought back Team Rocket's Meowth

Meowth is very incompetent, but fair.

 

[LordTracer]

To add to this, Bruno states that he trains with his Pokemon in FR/LG and LGPE (and it’s heavily implied in G/S/C and HG/SS) and I think Bea has fought her Pokemon too, but I’m not too sure on that one.

 

[QuasiYuri]

Both can be 8-A in AP. Chuck sparring with Machoke is not very relevant, as doubt it's a serious fight. Could Chuck ever damage Machoke? Either way, since he sparred with a Machoke, it's fair to say he is at least on Kiyo's level.

It's how he trains his Pokemon to make them stronger iirc.

Fair. I don't think grunts from Team Rocket have any training in a physical sense. Do they?

I don't think so.

Myths is a thing, a folk story, that's a nope. It's no different than a Urban Legend, most of the myths can be confirmed by other sources, and Arceus itself, but I don't think I can accept Folk Stories.

Except the folk part is their belief about respecting food. Not that they hunt Pokemon.

Nice. High 7-A+ durability.

The guy is apparently a black belt in the remake too. Idk if it changes much tho.

 

[GyroNutz]

I think Bea has fought her Pokemon too, but I’m not too sure on that one.

She does, it's shown explicitly in Twilight Wings. She didn't seem to hold her own very well though, and it's doubtful that Machamp was going at full strength. She's also implied to have fought a Rhydon too.

 

[XXKINGXX69]

We actually do for several verses if the individuals are just random, such as Danganronpa.

Pokemon humans are shown to just have varying levels of strength, some even having random powers like toon force and fate manipulation

 

[QuasiYuri]

Pokemon humans are shown to just have varying levels of strength, some even having random powers like toon force and fate manipulation

The same is true for these verses. Yet absolute fodder makes the other upscales to them if they aren't considered anything special in term of physical attributes.