- 24,183
- 3,938
- Thread starter
- #41
"at least high 1-A possily 0?"Matthew Schroeder said:
-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
The One Above All is Tier 0 Because...
- Thread starter ZacharyGrossman273
- Start date
-
- Tags
- the one above all
- Status
- 147
- 5
I don't even think he qualifies for 1A status considering the fact Marvel even wrote cosmic cube beings as above infinite dimensional entities in a story
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/3040894-avataars_01_02_03.jpg
http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/10/102593/3040894-avataars_01_02_03.jpg
- 24,183
- 3,938
- Thread starter
- #43
Alright good evidence for "at least High 1-A, likely 0?"
- 40,459
- 12,940
That's not a thing.
- 4,838
- 408
well thats not a thing becues if it was every tier zero would have that stateLoyalservantofInti said:
- 24,183
- 3,938
- Thread starter
- #46
Why isn't it?
- 40,459
- 12,940
Transfinite can very well mean low 2-C, which most of these beings are.EgyptianGodRaw said:
- 32,358
- 20,298
Infinite Hierarchy of Infinite levels of Transfinite beings.
1-A Multi-Eternity
Pre-Retcon Beyonder and Molecule Man making all dimensions and levels of reality tremble.
The definition of the Omniverse as being "EVERYTHING THAT IS EVER POSSIBLE AND EXISTS EVER" is still valid, only the portions applying other fictions have been removed.
What is being outside of every universe, multiverse, realm, dimension, level of existence, infinity, concept, spatial-temporal layers, etc called?
1-A.
- 24,183
- 3,938
- Thread starter
- #49
Agreed.
- 3,077
- 121
Nice catch.
Tremors are usually used for range rather than AP though, even when higher dimensions are involved, I think.
Also, Oblivion embodies the nothing predating creation which is a 1-A feat.
I don't think they were intended to be that strong though...
Tremors are usually used for range rather than AP though, even when higher dimensions are involved, I think.
Also, Oblivion embodies the nothing predating creation which is a 1-A feat.
I don't think they were intended to be that strong though...
- 32,358
- 20,298
They most certainly aren't.
But we need to find a way to measure things accurately.
For instance, the 16th Dimensional Space TLT was was simply the Dimension of Manifestations.
http://marvel.com/universe/Dimension_of_Manifestations At least, that's what it looks like. It's the blank white space beyond the multiverse that the Abstracts meet to discuss things.
But we need to find a way to measure things accurately.
For instance, the 16th Dimensional Space TLT was was simply the Dimension of Manifestations.
http://marvel.com/universe/Dimension_of_Manifestations At least, that's what it looks like. It's the blank white space beyond the multiverse that the Abstracts meet to discuss things.
- 1,290
- 508
- 32,358
- 20,298
Regular Abstracts shouldn't be anywhere stronger than At least 2-A. That's what their best feats are.
Multi-Abstracts meanwhile are all over the place.
Multi-Abstracts meanwhile are all over the place.
- 3,077
- 121
Ah, he's still limited by dimensions. My mistake.
- 167,683
- 76,264
Simply being stated to be beyond all dimensions of time and space is just tier 1-A.
Being stated as far beyond that level as it is beyond ordinary mortals might qualify as tier 0, if there is no known other being that is even higher.
However, any tier 1-A would appear to be boundless and omnipotent from mortal perspective.
We strictly rated Pre-Retcon OAA as tier 0, due to being explicitly stated to have created the omniverse in the Marvel handbooks, which also explicitly define this as all of fiction and reality combined.
However, this technically reaches Suggsverse levels of sheer enormous delusional author conceit from the handbook writers, and does not make any sense whatsoever, so I am uncertain if we should scrap it, and only keep the 1-A tier.
As for rating Multi-Eternity, Dormammu, and Umar as 1-A, based on a single comics panel, from a storyline in which the Hulk was able to blow out the flames of Dormammu's head, I do not find it reliable at all. In the Abraxas storyline, Multi-Eternity was simply defined as the sum of all parallell universes, and Dormammu is regularly beaten by far less, and the Faltine have been explicitly defined as higher-dimensional energy beings, not as beyond dimensions altogether.
Similarly, the Celestials have generally been defined as universe-creators, matched by Franklin Richards, and that's it. Every single writer seem to have ignored those early 1990s minor Kosmos and Kubik side-stories afterwards.
Being stated as far beyond that level as it is beyond ordinary mortals might qualify as tier 0, if there is no known other being that is even higher.
However, any tier 1-A would appear to be boundless and omnipotent from mortal perspective.
We strictly rated Pre-Retcon OAA as tier 0, due to being explicitly stated to have created the omniverse in the Marvel handbooks, which also explicitly define this as all of fiction and reality combined.
However, this technically reaches Suggsverse levels of sheer enormous delusional author conceit from the handbook writers, and does not make any sense whatsoever, so I am uncertain if we should scrap it, and only keep the 1-A tier.
As for rating Multi-Eternity, Dormammu, and Umar as 1-A, based on a single comics panel, from a storyline in which the Hulk was able to blow out the flames of Dormammu's head, I do not find it reliable at all. In the Abraxas storyline, Multi-Eternity was simply defined as the sum of all parallell universes, and Dormammu is regularly beaten by far less, and the Faltine have been explicitly defined as higher-dimensional energy beings, not as beyond dimensions altogether.
Similarly, the Celestials have generally been defined as universe-creators, matched by Franklin Richards, and that's it. Every single writer seem to have ignored those early 1990s minor Kosmos and Kubik side-stories afterwards.
- 167,683
- 76,264
I extremely strongly disapprove of suddenly attempting to upgrade every single Marvel cosmic entity to 1-A, based on a few extremely contradicted and obscure outliers, that are completely irrelevant in present continuity. 1-B is extremely generous as it is based on the Living Tribunal's most recent embarrassing official power displays.
- 167,683
- 76,264
Also, the handbooks are written by Marvel interns, not even by the paid editors, with the exceptions of the statistics, which are written by Tom Brevoort, and as such are extremely unreliable to start with. I think that it is safer to go by the newer definition in the Ultimates comicbook, in which an omniverse simply seems to be a larger version of a multiverse, and it is possible to travel outside of it.
- 32
- 1
Correct me if I'm wrong, but TOAA was never explicitly retconned, right?
To me it makes sense that we would list characters that have hard retcons like Beyonder and Dr. Strange separately. But for characters that turned out to be less powerful than previously surmised (based on the lack of information) I don't really see that as a hard retcon.
Technically the Living Tribunal had a hard time destroying planets back in the day, and didn't become the multiversal power we know him as today until 1990. But to have a pre-retcon version of the Living Tribunal for this would be silly.
To me it makes sense that we would list characters that have hard retcons like Beyonder and Dr. Strange separately. But for characters that turned out to be less powerful than previously surmised (based on the lack of information) I don't really see that as a hard retcon.
Technically the Living Tribunal had a hard time destroying planets back in the day, and didn't become the multiversal power we know him as today until 1990. But to have a pre-retcon version of the Living Tribunal for this would be silly.
- 1,290
- 508
I personally have no problems with the fact that some versions of abstracts (DeMatteis cosmology for example) should be noted as 1-A.
And we can also scale omniverse from it. Because the determination (any possible world, fiction etc) allow us to ignore contradictions and simply consider them as different possibilities.
And we can also scale omniverse from it. Because the determination (any possible world, fiction etc) allow us to ignore contradictions and simply consider them as different possibilities.
- 3,077
- 121
The source wasn't even worth noticing to Lucifer and it's still limited by the primal monitor.
- 147
- 5
http://static.flickr.com/52/127047035_6b354349e8_o.jpg
That definition is not really the source , but merely the prometheans giants that lie entombed in
In some stories they even referred to godwave and GL emotional entities as the source .
The true definiton of the source is what GM defines as the omniverse concept on which all the creations like Marvel , DC and archie sonic exists
http://i.imgur.com/qtFQ96z.png
and the further stories from DeMatteis himself describes the source as void beyond all the void and the infinite nothingness that exists before thought form and shape
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qXSdfI3FBcA/VesWWo9BN_I/AAAAAAAPnDg/zrxqacsgAYw/s1600/118_19.jpg
The Source concept is introduced by Jack kirby as the combined consciousness of everything in the Multiverse .
Pardon me for bringing this to this post
That definition is not really the source , but merely the prometheans giants that lie entombed in
In some stories they even referred to godwave and GL emotional entities as the source .
The true definiton of the source is what GM defines as the omniverse concept on which all the creations like Marvel , DC and archie sonic exists
http://i.imgur.com/qtFQ96z.png
and the further stories from DeMatteis himself describes the source as void beyond all the void and the infinite nothingness that exists before thought form and shape
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-qXSdfI3FBcA/VesWWo9BN_I/AAAAAAAPnDg/zrxqacsgAYw/s1600/118_19.jpg
The Source concept is introduced by Jack kirby as the combined consciousness of everything in the Multiverse .
Pardon me for bringing this to this post
- 147
- 5
And another reason Marvel abstracts might be 1A due to eternity existing beyond all the definitions of space and time .
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/v9XV8swbUZ...RWDstVQQxSwic0TBNA1LBsd9fxybJ3vo3VLI7WKuow=s0
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/v9XV8swbUZ...RWDstVQQxSwic0TBNA1LBsd9fxybJ3vo3VLI7WKuow=s0
- 32,358
- 20,298
... Why are we talking about The Source?
Edit: Also, cool, so that means The Empty Hand blew up Marvel Comics.
I don't think I need to explain why this is unusable.
And that is Multi-Eternity Egyptian.
@Antvasima
My main issue is that we have no real standard of how to treat characters in Marvel who go beyond Multiversal+
Let's be honest here for a moment: Marvel does not use Dimensional Tiering. At all. They instead use their own system based around Multiverses, Megaverses and the Omniverse.
I think it is important that we find a way to quantify this. I understand that we can claim that "Megaverses are just Multiversal+" and move on, and from a linear standpoint, that does make sense. Except Marvel Comics don't think that.
On occasion, Marvel Comics does talk about Higher Realities / Planes, and levels of Infinity (The word "Transfinite" is tossed around a lot). We also need to find a distinction between "Infinite Universes" Multiverse and "All of existence" Multiverse.
The later should be High 1-C, I believe.
Here is what I'd believe would make some sense:
Marvel "Infinite Universes" Destruction: Multiverse level+
Marvel "All of Existence" Multiverse Destruction: Possibly High Complex Multiverse level
Marvel "Megaversal" Destruction: At least High Multiverse level+, possibly Hyperverse level (As the 16th Dimensional structure was defined as existing beyond the Multiverse, I think this is fairly generous. Of course. Case by case analysis is important).
Omniversal Feats: REALLY depends on a case by case analaysis as this is where it truly gets contradictory, but the Highest-End Interpretations would be 1-A, as the High-End interpretation of the Omniverse is absolutely everything ever regardless of scale, reason, logic, concepts, etc.
It is no different than the C.Mythos' Outer Gods who exist outside of everything.
There are very few characters who would scale to this without contradictions.
And even if we take out the "All of Fiction and Real Life" from Pre-Retcon TOAA, he would still be Tier 0, as that would be the most generous "Downplay" of the original definition we could give.
Edit: Also, cool, so that means The Empty Hand blew up Marvel Comics.
I don't think I need to explain why this is unusable.
And that is Multi-Eternity Egyptian.
@Antvasima
My main issue is that we have no real standard of how to treat characters in Marvel who go beyond Multiversal+
Let's be honest here for a moment: Marvel does not use Dimensional Tiering. At all. They instead use their own system based around Multiverses, Megaverses and the Omniverse.
I think it is important that we find a way to quantify this. I understand that we can claim that "Megaverses are just Multiversal+" and move on, and from a linear standpoint, that does make sense. Except Marvel Comics don't think that.
On occasion, Marvel Comics does talk about Higher Realities / Planes, and levels of Infinity (The word "Transfinite" is tossed around a lot). We also need to find a distinction between "Infinite Universes" Multiverse and "All of existence" Multiverse.
The later should be High 1-C, I believe.
Here is what I'd believe would make some sense:
Marvel "Infinite Universes" Destruction: Multiverse level+
Marvel "All of Existence" Multiverse Destruction: Possibly High Complex Multiverse level
Marvel "Megaversal" Destruction: At least High Multiverse level+, possibly Hyperverse level (As the 16th Dimensional structure was defined as existing beyond the Multiverse, I think this is fairly generous. Of course. Case by case analysis is important).
Omniversal Feats: REALLY depends on a case by case analaysis as this is where it truly gets contradictory, but the Highest-End Interpretations would be 1-A, as the High-End interpretation of the Omniverse is absolutely everything ever regardless of scale, reason, logic, concepts, etc.
It is no different than the C.Mythos' Outer Gods who exist outside of everything.
There are very few characters who would scale to this without contradictions.
And even if we take out the "All of Fiction and Real Life" from Pre-Retcon TOAA, he would still be Tier 0, as that would be the most generous "Downplay" of the original definition we could give.
- 167,683
- 76,264
Well, DarkLK is much more knowledgeable about the tiering system that I am, so I obviously always strongly respect his viewpoint.
It is just that I have so much experience with Marvel being completely inconsistent and incoherent in virtually every single respect.
I obviously agree that if we take DeMatteis' statements literally, this would rate Dormammu, Umar, and Eternity as 1-A.
The problem is that this would contradict absolutely everything else that that we know about the characters, including that Eternity is supposed to be an embodiment of time and space, not beyond it, and that Dormammu's absolutely best feat was to rewrite the reality of all regular universes. And that is to say nothing about all of their enormously lower showings.
We would have to scale all cosmic Marvel characters of a supposedly comparable level to 1-A, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Hence, I think that we should consider it as a massive outlier.
It is just that I have so much experience with Marvel being completely inconsistent and incoherent in virtually every single respect.
I obviously agree that if we take DeMatteis' statements literally, this would rate Dormammu, Umar, and Eternity as 1-A.
The problem is that this would contradict absolutely everything else that that we know about the characters, including that Eternity is supposed to be an embodiment of time and space, not beyond it, and that Dormammu's absolutely best feat was to rewrite the reality of all regular universes. And that is to say nothing about all of their enormously lower showings.
We would have to scale all cosmic Marvel characters of a supposedly comparable level to 1-A, which makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Hence, I think that we should consider it as a massive outlier.
- 32,358
- 20,298
I agree that it is an outlier.
But we need a basis of consistency for how we'll rate Marvel Feats above Multiversal+ on our profiles.
But we need a basis of consistency for how we'll rate Marvel Feats above Multiversal+ on our profiles.
- 167,683
- 76,264
@Matthew I am probably fine with your suggestions about all universes multiverse being 2-A, all of existence multiverse being High 1-C, and megaverse being 1-B, but Marvel has been very inconsistent about the omniverse definition, and I do not understand your reasoning for the OAA being tier 0 even without the omniverse statement. Please explain further.
- 32,358
- 20,298
Didn't Thanos obtain "Omniversal" powers with the Heart of the Universe?
While the story's canonicity has never been clear, in Thanos: The Infinity Finale, it was referenced as actually happened.
AAO calls it "Omni-Reality Perception ".
So even existing in a level where you can perceive with, interact with an destroy the Omniverse is but a tiny fragment of TOAA's power. At least this is what I'm gathering.
I'm fine with either 1-A or Tier 0, tho.
While the story's canonicity has never been clear, in Thanos: The Infinity Finale, it was referenced as actually happened.
AAO calls it "Omni-Reality Perception ".
So even existing in a level where you can perceive with, interact with an destroy the Omniverse is but a tiny fragment of TOAA's power. At least this is what I'm gathering.
I'm fine with either 1-A or Tier 0, tho.
- 32,358
- 20,298
Again, it's very inconsistent, and I am unsure who would even scale to Omniversal Feats to begin with.
Only the Highest-End Interpretations of The Living Tribunal, The Beyonders, HOTU Thanos and House of M Scarlet Witch out of the top of my head.
The only certain Omniversal Character is TOAA.
Edit: Even if no one ends up scaling to Omniversal, do you agree with my Reasonings?
If you wish, I could make a page for it, explaining how we are defining Megaverse and Omniverse. Later though.
Only the Highest-End Interpretations of The Living Tribunal, The Beyonders, HOTU Thanos and House of M Scarlet Witch out of the top of my head.
The only certain Omniversal Character is TOAA.
Edit: Even if no one ends up scaling to Omniversal, do you agree with my Reasonings?
If you wish, I could make a page for it, explaining how we are defining Megaverse and Omniverse. Later though.
- 167,683
- 76,264
Well, in "Marvel: The End", all that I remember is that Thanos absorbed a single universe, and various cosmic entities.
Jim Starlin has a different approach to the Living Tribunal, as it was stated in "The Infinity Entity" that Adam Warlock absorbed a Living Tribunal from a parallell universe. Hence, in Starlin stories there is apparently not just one LT in the multiverse, but rather one for each universe.
Jim Starlin has a different approach to the Living Tribunal, as it was stated in "The Infinity Entity" that Adam Warlock absorbed a Living Tribunal from a parallell universe. Hence, in Starlin stories there is apparently not just one LT in the multiverse, but rather one for each universe.
- 32,358
- 20,298
In Marvel: The End, Thanos would likely be Megaversal or 1-B considering he destroyed all Cosmic Entities including TLT with ease.
We call those M-Bodies, I believe. Besides, scales beyond the Multiverse still exist.
I'm not sure if it was 100% stated, but The Beyonders' simply killing an M-Body is sorta consistent with what happened lately.
Again, I'm unsure.
We call those M-Bodies, I believe. Besides, scales beyond the Multiverse still exist.
I'm not sure if it was 100% stated, but The Beyonders' simply killing an M-Body is sorta consistent with what happened lately.
Again, I'm unsure.
- 167,683
- 76,264
Well, Mark Gruenwald introduced the M-Bodies in his Quasar run, but he died in the mid 1990s, and Marvel writers have almost uniformly ignored the concept ever since.
Jim Starlin likely intended Thanos to have absorbed the real Living Tribunal, but only the one for that particular universe. Similarly, the Beyonders also killed the real LT, but this was a multiversal take on the character.
Again, Marvel is near impossible to make any sense of.
Jim Starlin likely intended Thanos to have absorbed the real Living Tribunal, but only the one for that particular universe. Similarly, the Beyonders also killed the real LT, but this was a multiversal take on the character.
Again, Marvel is near impossible to make any sense of.
- 32,358
- 20,298
- 32,358
- 20,298
Even if we don't upgrade The Living Tribunal, or The Beyonders (Although High 1-C would be more logical since "All of Existence" Multiverse), does my idea for Megaversal and Omniversal quantification make sense?
- 32
- 1
- 32,358
- 20,298
Those were manifestations, at least.
- 32
- 1
- Status
