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The Low 2-C Pucci Thread

So firstly I said it I don't care if its CONSIDERED a parallel universe or not because they still consider it a reset.

Well you should, especially due to the lack of any such terminology in the raws, if it's a brand new universal time-space, if it's stated to be a NEW universe, if it's stated to be an alternate dimension, then obviously it isn't a reset now is it and calling it as such does absolutely ******* nothing to help and is actively counter productive to the very point of this thread. It isnt one, so stop acting like it is, doubly so when no such word is used in the raws.


Im continuously repeating its time acceleration BECAUSE THATS WHAT HIS ABILITY IS STATED TO DO! AND THAT ITS NOT DOING ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN THAT.

Yes, his ability can accelerate time, that doesn't mean that's literally all it's doing. Crazy Diamond "fixes" things, doesn't mean that's ALL it's doing or can do, now does it?

Obviously if his ability does one thing,

It doesn't do "one" thing, which is the issue with your claims. Even that "one thing" is a result of another thing.

and everything else is something that we know for a fact he is not doing and is not in control of,

Not even true, especially when you take guides into account. And "for a fact", I take issue with that, even using the spread sheet I'm sure you linked, it never once actually states "this is entirely disconnected from mih or pucci", news flash, there's various other facets to the ability, some of it is a universal constant, some of it isn't, it's not black or white, it's mixed.

then obviously it would be either something that happens naturally, or done by a force EXTERNAL to him.

Or it's a facet of his ability or interconnected to it with some degree. There's a third option lad, not like there isn't.

Your assuming it does all these other things, which I'm explaining why HE IS NOT.

Actually you're not really doing anything.
And I'm saying, you're kinda full of it, even if, at the end of day, some of it is universal constants at play, which there is, no denying that of course, there is some natural laws happening, but to go "lol Pucci does nothing and it's just time accel and NOTHING else" is blatant disingenuity, because we know some of what transpired is due to MIH, the Stand. And ****, as mentioned many times, the very fact it's explicit universal gravity manip alone is worth something beyond just handwaving it away, that'd be ED regardless of what we decide.

Thats a blatant strawman and not what I was arguing for at all.

No, that's just me saying that's literally all I'm getting from you. Stand by that still.

Irrelevant, my point was that Pucci/MIH wasn't involved in the creation of destiny, or the new universe, other than accelerating it.

And that's where I'm calling you out, he is, explicitly so.

It's not a full on natural process, the universe ending and then a new one being birthed isn't a full on natural law, it's never even stated to be as such, and the cycle chart is talking about MIH's effects, assuming it's purely natural and not at all related to the Stand's ability is, I don't know, it just comes off as bit odd?
Not to mention guides even mention him being able to cut off fate and the like whenever he pleases.


And that isn't a red flag to you? "Pucci just so happens be the single entity in all of existence to be immune to this fate in the new universe but everyone else isn't, oh but he has NOTHING to do with it all, it's just a coincidence that the destiny of the new world is something he can freely change and isn't bound to".

Like lad, think for a second, I'm not saying it's 100%, but acting like there's NOTHING going on is plain dumb.

I obviously don't agree that ED shouldn't be included within the AP section since its inapplicable to combat, but if VSBW decides to do that, oh well idrc.
Well, we do, don't know what to tell you, it's precisely why ED is a thing, to differentiate it within the AP section from normal AP, this goes for like, any ability that can **** the environment up but can't be focused, though most commonly it's used for like storm creation and the like.
 
I'm pretty sure using gravity to accelerate time to the point the universe itself just ******* implodes or whatever would be ending everything in it lol.
sorry let me phrase it better
from my understanding, made in heaven just accelerates time super fast until the "end of the universe" and everything gets destroyed due to natural causes
but if that's all it's doing then wouldn't that mean that it's the same universe, just that the galaxies get remade or something
it's just really confusing to me, sorry
 
sorry let me phrase it better
from my understanding, made in heaven just accelerates time super fast until the "end of the universe" and everything gets destroyed due to natural causes
but if that's all it's doing then wouldn't that mean that it's the same universe, just that the galaxies get remade or something
it's just really confusing to me, sorry
The time and space get redoes also
 
sorry let me phrase it better
from my understanding, made in heaven just accelerates time super fast until the "end of the universe" and everything gets destroyed due to natural causes
but if that's all it's doing then wouldn't that mean that it's the same universe, just that the galaxies get remade or something
it's just really confusing to me, sorry
It's Jojo it'll always be confusing.

Also, I'm 99% sure everybody knowledgeable has said an entirely new universe is made from scratch with differences to the previous one.
 
"But the stairway to heaven's stand ability utilizes the gravitational power of earth and moon, basically the whole universe, to increase the speed of time."

(Yeah, that's clearly gravity. You should have done your research, supreme, instead of contradicting yourself there)
Huh? I never said it wasn't due to gravity, in fact I sent a scan proving it was done via the utilization of gravity, and I am well aware of how c-moon utilized gravity as well... via gravity he is accelerating time. All I was doing was simplifying his ability by referring to it as time accel...
 
Huh? I never said it wasn't due to gravity, in fact I sent a scan proving it was done via the utilization of gravity, and I am well aware of how c-moon utilized gravity as well... via gravity he is accelerating time. All I was doing was simplifying his ability by referring to it as time accel...
But it's not just time acceleration, is it now? You just contradicted yourself again, dude.
 
Huh? I never said it wasn't due to gravity, in fact I sent a scan proving it was done via the utilization of gravity, and I am well aware of how c-moon utilized gravity as well... via gravity he is accelerating time. All I was doing was simplifying his ability by referring to it as time accel...

Lad, that's the issue, it's been brought up long before we started having this minor debate, we cant simplify it here, we need to be as precise and detailed as we possibly can in regards to it. Simplifying it is why there's some issues in the first place, not everyone know the details, mechanics and functions of it, let alone how the cosmology works here.

We can't simplify anything in this thread for the sake of others and for clarity.
 
Well you should, especially due to the lack of any such terminology in the raws, if it's a brand new universal time-space, if it's stated to be a NEW universe, if it's stated to be an alternate dimension, then obviously it isn't a reset now is it and calling it as such does absolutely ******* nothing to help and is actively counter productive to the very point of this thread. It isnt one, so stop acting like it is, doubly so when no such word is used in the raws.




Yes, his ability can accelerate time, that doesn't mean that's literally all it's doing. Crazy Diamond "fixes" things, doesn't mean that's ALL it's doing or can do, now does it?



It doesn't do "one" thing, which is the issue with your claims. Even that "one thing" is a result of another thing.



Not even true, especially when you take guides into account. And "for a fact", I take issue with that, even using the spread sheet I'm sure you linked, it never once actually states "this is entirely disconnected from mih or pucci", news flash, there's various other facets to the ability, some of it is a universal constant, some of it isn't, it's not black or white, it's mixed.



Or it's a facet of his ability or interconnected to it with some degree. There's a third option lad, not like there isn't.



Actually you're not really doing anything.
And I'm saying, you're kinda full of it, even if, at the end of day, some of it is universal constants at play, which there is, no denying that of course, there is some natural laws happening, but to go "lol Pucci does nothing and it's just time accel and NOTHING else" is blatant disingenuity, because we know some of what transpired is due to MIH, the Stand. And ****, as mentioned many times, the very fact it's explicit universal gravity manip alone is worth something beyond just handwaving it away, that'd be ED regardless of what we decide.



No, that's just me saying that's literally all I'm getting from you. Stand by that still.



And that's where I'm calling you out, he is, explicitly so.

It's not a full on natural process, the universe ending and then a new one being birthed isn't a full on natural law, it's never even stated to be as such, and the cycle chart is talking about MIH's effects, assuming it's purely natural and not at all related to the Stand's ability is, I don't know, it just comes off as bit odd?
Not to mention guides even mention him being able to cut off fate and the like whenever he pleases.



And that isn't a red flag to you? "Pucci just so happens be the single entity in all of existence to be immune to this fate in the new universe but everyone else isn't, oh but he has NOTHING to do with it all, it's just a coincidence that the destiny of the new world is something he can freely change and isn't bound to".

Like lad, think for a second, I'm not saying it's 100%, but acting like there's NOTHING going on is plain dumb.


Well, we do, don't know what to tell you, it's precisely why ED is a thing, to differentiate it within the AP section from normal AP, this goes for like, any ability that can **** the environment up but can't be focused, though most commonly it's used for like storm creation and the like.
I think the majority of your confusion is coming from how im using the term "reset". No I am not using it as to imply that its the exact same universe, i'm using it to refer to this event. And this thread was literally made to discuss his 2-c rating, to my knowledge, not to simplify for people who don't understand the verse how MIH works.

Yes, his ability can accelerate time, that doesn't mean that's literally all it's doing. Crazy Diamond "fixes" things, doesn't mean that's ALL it's doing or can do, now does it?
Ok then show me when it was stated that Pucci directly created the universe and fate, obviously because to me it feels like you think this universe/fate was something made by his stand rather than it being presupposed as a natural occurrence/done by an outside force. Because what your doing right now is assuming he is causing all of these things, rather than showing evidence of him doing so.
Not even true, especially when you take guides into account. And "for a fact", I take issue with that, even using the spread sheet I'm sure you linked, it never once actually states "this is entirely disconnected from mih or pucci", news flash, there's various other facets to the ability, some of it is a universal constant, some of it isn't, it's not black or white, it's mixed.
What you're doing right now is an argument from ignorance, just because its not stated that pucci isn't creating the new universe or fate, doesn't mean its not the case what? Especially when nothing points to he actually is...
Actually you're not really doing anything.
And I'm saying, you're kinda full of it, even if, at the end of day, some of it is universal constants at play, which there is, no denying that of course, there is some natural laws happening, but to go "lol Pucci does nothing and it's just time accel and NOTHING else" is blatant disingenuity, because we know some of what transpired is due to MIH, the Stand. And ****, as mentioned many times, the very fact it's explicit universal gravity manip alone is worth something beyond just handwaving it away, that'd be ED regardless of what we decide.
Im saying its just pucci's time accel/gravity manip because thats all that i can prove from the statements I've seen. If I were to argue he was actually creating the universe or fate, or doing anything other than what his ability is stated to do, I would need actual evidence supporting that.
No, that's just me saying that's literally all I'm getting from you. Stand by that still.
Im telling you thats not what i'm arguing for and if thats all what you're getting from what im saying, something im not arguing for, then clearly you aren't understanding my argument.
And that's where I'm calling you out, he is, explicitly so.
Ok then show me a scan of it stated that he was creating the universe, and was creating its fate? If you refuse to do so i'll just apply hitchen's razor and dismiss your argument.
And that isn't a red flag to you? "Pucci just so happens be the single entity in all of existence to be immune to this fate in the new universe but everyone else isn't, oh but he has NOTHING to do with it all, it's just a coincidence that the destiny of the new world is something he can freely change and isn't bound to".

Like lad, think for a second, I'm not saying it's 100%, but acting like there's NOTHING going on is plain dumb.
Unless it is 100% we cannot hold that to be the truth no matter the probability, without further evidence you would be applying an appeal to probability fallacy.

Anything else you've said or want to say, I would prefer to discuss it in a vc on discord, so I can better explain myself than on text.
 
Lad, that's the issue, it's been brought up long before we started having this minor debate, we cant simplify it here, we need to be as precise and detailed as we possibly can in regards to it. Simplifying it is why there's some issues in the first place, not everyone know the details, mechanics and functions of it, let alone how the cosmology works here.

We can't simplify anything in this thread for the sake of others and for clarity.
Simplifying my argument did not make it inaccurate or change at all, all he did was add extra details like what 💀. And my goal here isn't for non jojo fans to understand what i'm saying, its to discuss pucci and MIH himself.
 
Then obviously I misspoke... i'll make it easier to understand for you to understand my stance now. What made in heaven is doing is accelerating time via gravity manip, he is not physically creating a universe nor fate, as far as we know.
Yeah. That's still a Low 2-C Environmental destruction feat.
 
Yeah. That's still a Low 2-C Environmental destruction feat.
He's not destroying the universe, the end of the universe just occurs, what he's doing is accelerating time to reach that point that likely would've naturally happened. Idk if thats necessarily destroying but idrc, ED feats aren't really that good.
 
He's not destroying the universe, the end of the universe just occurs, what he's doing is accelerating time to reach that point that likely would've naturally happened. Idk if thats necessarily destroying but idrc, ED feats aren't really that good.
If you have a problem with Environmental destruction feats as a whole don't bring it up here. Make a separate CRT.
 
If you have a problem with Environmental destruction feats as a whole don't bring it up here. Make a separate CRT.
That wasn't the point of my reply, while I do not agree with the idea of ED being listed on the AP section. My point was that again, he's not destroying the universe, the end of the universe just occurs, what he's doing is accelerating time to reach that point that likely would've naturally happened.
 
That wasn't the point of my reply, while I do not agree with the idea of ED being listed on the AP section. My point was that again, he's not destroying the universe, the end of the universe just occurs, what he's doing is accelerating time to reach that point that likely would've naturally happened.
Environmental destruction is the ability to affect the environment around them and not a specific character.

Pucci is affecting the environment via accelerating time, is he not?
 
Environmental destruction is the ability to affect the environment around them and not a specific character.

Pucci is affecting the environment via accelerating time, is he not?
Environment destruction is, quite literally, the ability to damage or destroy the "environment". What Pucci is doing isn't that, the destruction of the "environment", what he is doing is basically speeding it up. The end of the universe is something that happens whether Pucci is involved or not. What he does is just speed up the process if that makes sense.
 
Environment destruction is, quite literally, the ability to damage or destroy the "environment". What Pucci is doing isn't that, the destruction of the "environment", what he is doing is basically speeding it up. The end of the universe is something that happens whether Pucci is involved or not. What he does is just speed up the process if that makes sense.
Well he's not "just speeding up the process".
 
Environment destruction is, quite literally, the ability to damage or destroy the "environment". What Pucci is doing isn't that, the destruction of the "environment", what he is doing is basically speeding it up. The end of the universe is something that happens whether Pucci is involved or not. What he does is just speed up the process if that makes sense.
Speeding up the process of the environment being destroyed is still destruction of the environment.
 
I get that gravity is a huge part of MiH's ability. But it's abusing physics to achieve temporal acceleration, and that undeniable. Sure, the physical effects of MiH's ability are shown with the increase of KE and whatnot, but you have yet to show proof that MiH is causing the universe reset and it is not a byproduct of a natural order.

Edit: Considering Pucci is affecting the "gravity" of the entire universe, I guess there is a physical AP to be had. But I don't see how it is quantifiable. There's no way to calculate the relative relationship between the increase of speed and the increase of KE before the whole universe reaches infinity and resets. So at its peak I think it would be High 3-A environmental destruction at best.
 
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Well he's not "just speeding up the process".
Again im simplifying, but if you want me to complicate it, sure. What he is doing is utilizing the gravity of the universe to speed up time, to reach the point of the end of the universe which presumably would've happened whether or not pucci did anything.
 
Simplifying my argument did not make it inaccurate or change at all,
It did, because you're leaving out contextual details.
News flash, it's not just me and you in this thread, it's not about arguing with me, it's about proving and establishing that your point is true, if your point deals with skewed info due to simplification, that's still it being skewed.

all he did was add extra details like what 💀

You mean me? yeah, I did add details, because they matter to the point of the thread.
Simplifying or pretending it's something it's not is so goddamn counter productive that everyone would be better off ignoring you by virtue of you butchering the mechanics.

. And my goal here isn't for non jojo fans to understand what i'm saying, its to discuss pucci and MIH himself.

Then you're in the wrong thread for that because this thread has that as a key topic and you making it hard for third parties to get a proper understanding of it is counter productive to everyone involved, cease if you can't be bothered to be hyper specific and precise, because it's not jojo fans you need to take into account, I know what you mean, doesn't mean others don't, if that was the case we wouldn't of had that issue earlier with telling people to read it themselves and stuff.

I think the majority of your confusion is coming from how im using the term "reset". No I am not using it as to imply that its the exact same universe, i'm using it to refer to this event. And this thread was literally made to discuss his 2-c rating, to my knowledge, not to simplify for people who don't understand the verse how MIH works.
Ok then show me when it was stated that Pucci directly created the universe and fate, obviously because to me it feels like you think this universe/fate was something made by his stand rather than it being presupposed as a natural occurrence/done by an outside force. Because what your doing right now is assuming he is causing all of these things, rather than showing evidence of him doing so.

Reading comprehension, I said some things are a facet of his Stand, I also said some things are a natural law, yet here you are trying to say all of it is natural, new flash it isn't.

Here, I'll quote myself, "some of it is universal constants at play, which there is, no denying that of course, there is some natural laws happening, but to go "lol Pucci does nothing and it's just time accel and NOTHING else" is blatant disingenuity,"

And show the scans? You do realize the very scans you posted are talking about MIH right? The Stand, it's ability, and the mechanics of it, it never once states that's the universe's doing lad, in fact, the very fact it's listed under how the ability works in both the manga and the guides should be evidence enough it's MIH, not some unspoken universal rule. L

What you're doing right now is an argument from ignorance, just because its not stated that pucci isn't creating the new universe or fate, doesn't mean its not the case what? Especially when nothing points to he actually is...

Would be cool if that was an actual argument or fallacy I was doing, maybe I wasn't blunt enough, my bad, what I'm doing is calling you out on hypocritical stances.
You're saying "well it not saying pucci doesnt do it doesnt mean he does", in case you aren't self-aware of your own arguments, you realize that's literally what you're doing right? It's never actually stated half this shit is the universe's doing or a natural law, and what is a natural occurring phenomena IS stated to be such, the emergence of a new world for example? Never stated to be universal constants.
Yet you're arguing it is, funny that right? I'm basically calling you a hypocrite. Especially as seen below given you're going hard on that front, pot meet kettle. At the end of the day, it's still ED, the fact that it's connected to MIH somehow and it's under his control is reason enough.

No, I'm not advocating Pucci is 100% the direct cause, but I am advocating he has some connections to it, it's somehow connected to his ability, because that at the very least is true even if the extent is hard to tell.
Im saying its just pucci's time accel/gravity manip because thats all that i can prove from the statements I've seen. If I were to argue he was actually creating the universe or fate, or doing anything other than what his ability is stated to do, I would need actual evidence supporting that.

That or just deductive reasoning. If we can confirm it's not a natural law, by proxy it makes it a facet of the Stand.
Now is that possible? For a few aspects sure, not all, but some.
Im telling you thats not what i'm arguing for and if thats all what you're getting from what im saying, something im not arguing for, then clearly you aren't understanding my argument.
Well sure, maybe I'm not, but given how much you're half-assing it and leaving out key details and simplifying things by your own admission makes it kinda hard to tell. What you're saying betrays your intent basically.

Ok then show me a scan of it stated that he was creating the universe, and was creating its fate? If you refuse to do so i'll just apply hitchen's razor and dismiss your argument.

First off, kindly piss off with your fallacial bullshit.
Secondly, maybe it didn't hit you the first four times, you realize the scan that explicitly points out the emergence of a new world is talking about his ability, and when it speaks of natural law it points out that it is one.

But hey, I'll grab raws and get an ex-mod to even translate some of it when I'm available on PC.

Though, think for a second on what that means. And fate? No, the fate part is actually pre-ordained, but he can cut it off according to JoJoveller, and of course, change the fates of himself and others as he isn't bound to it (gee wonder why he isn't bound to fate/destiny in this new world when everyone else is 🤔, couldnt possibly because he somehow had involvement could it?).

Unless it is 100% we cannot hold that to be the truth no matter the probability, without further evidence you would be applying an appeal to probability fallacy.

Or common sense, deductive reasoning, and not just being ignorant as **** and ignoring straight up critical aspects of the ability and goals of the character in question and pretending it's just some random coincidence opposed to this extremely impossible situation somehow has zero connections to the ability that initiated all this in the first place.

It's not even a probability, it's called stop pretending shit doesn't exist.

Anything else you've said or want to say, I would prefer to discuss it in a vc on discord, so I can better explain myself than on text.

Why in the **** would I go to discord to discuss this? And especially VC?
I mean, no offense, but I wouldn't care if I never had to speak to you again, I don't even want to do this right now in general and barely have the ability to do so properly, the only reason why I even responded to you in the first place is because I kinda have to for the sake of others and this thread, not because I actually care nor want to discuss MIH with you or anyone for that matter. I have like zero free time, having actual personal matters to attend to, I don't even have access to a PC so my ability to grab scans is limited to whatever the **** I can grab off google at the moment or whatever I already have uploaded to imgur instead of loading up and compiling albums with scans of guides, raws and the like with proper translations, breakdowns and more, but no, I'm here because I have to, so people don't get trigger happy and decide to downgrade probably the most straightforward example of Environmental Destruction I've ever seen because people think there's a bunch of unspoken rules to ED that aren't listed on the page for it for some reason.

Put simply, no, I quite frankly ain't doing shit beyond the bare minimum and it's gonna be relegated to this thread only.

When I have time to properly compile all the scans, translations and more, I'll likely do so if we still need them by then as I told AKM hours ago.
 
I get that gravity is a huge part of MiH's ability. But it's abusing physics to achieve temporal acceleration, and that undeniable. Sure, the physical effects of MiH's ability are shown with the increase of KE and whatnot, but you have yet to show proof that MiH is causing the universe reset and it is not a byproduct of a natural order.
Ovens, as I said in my initial reply to you, it wouldn't even matter if it was full on straight up basic ass time accel, the way it acts in action and is used fits the definition of environmental AP, there is no such rule of caveats to qualifying for that. Though the fact it isn't just a basic accel makes the argument that it is and can't apply somewhat dubious to begin with.

The only rule is that it must effect the environment and damage it, and can't be applicable AP. It doesn't have to be physical, hell most cases aren't, as long as it do, it fits. And given this is the Stand's ENTIRE schtick, dismissing it and acting like it doesn't count goes against the whole indexing aspect of the wiki when that's like this character's whole purpose. Honestly that's my main issue with all of this, I feel like just ignoring the key critical point of a major character is kinda stupid and counterintuitive to what we do.

And MIH is causing it, it manipulates gravity, twists space-time, and completely and utterly ***** the flow of time, gravity, energy, and more (as we see with KE for example) on a explicit universal scale effecting the whole of including individual stars, planets and more, it's not a natural order, or well, it is, partially, but the issue comes with ignoring the rest of that "partially", there's a reason why everything is so janky and disproportionate to how it should act when sped up and how it actually acts when sped up, it's forcefully induced through a roundabout method with extremely adverse effects to all.

Considering Pucci is affecting the "gravity" of the entire universe, I guess there is a physical AP to be had. But I don't see how it is quantifiable.

It doesn't need to be quantifiable exactly, but we're outright told it's that of the entire universe in scale and as we see, can even twist time itself. Ergo, it's effecting the whole of the universe so we have the AOE, and it's potent enough to do, well, we see what it does.

There's no way to calculate the relative relationship between the increase of speed and the increase of KE before the whole universe reaches infinity and resets.

Actually, we can, it's straightforward actually.
Infinite acceleration = Infinite KE. It'd be impossible to define it 100% between the start before it reaches infinity, but we can quantify the end result quite easily as it's told to us blatantly (not withstanding I actually tried my hand at calcing how fast time was crunched at certain points to find a relative KE of certain objects just to see).

So at its peak I think it would be High 3-A environmental destruction at best.

That would be the lowest i'd go, but at the same time, it's undeniable that time-space as a whole ceases, mostly because we're outright told the old world vanishes and a brand new space-time takes its place, kinda confirm that yeah, time gets ****** too.
And again, this still fits with our ED standards (of which there isnt really any, but that's not my fault).
 
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Anything else you've said or want to say, I would prefer to discuss it in a vc on discord, so I can better explain myself than on text.
"VC on discord" Dude get that shit out of there. Anytime I see people like you with the whole "VC on discord" makes me cringe af. I swear Debate community outside of VsBattle is quite weird af nowadays.

"You committed a fallacy!" Oh wow, nobody cares 😴

Logical Fallacy

"One thing to keep in mind, is that even if someone is using a fallacy, it does not necessarily mean that their argument is not true. It merely means that they are attempting to argue for it improperly."
From the wiki itself 😐
 
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Yeah I'm advocating for Low 2-C tbh, it verbatim says parallel dimension, and from my knowledge Jojo deals with Space-Time an awful lot. Heck, half the time (canon and non-canon) it refers to Space-Time.
Hell, the original says 別の宇宙の誕生 (バラレルワールドと考えてもいい) Birth of another universe. (You can think of it as another world/dimension).

Straight up called a universe.
 
"VC on discord" Dude get that shit out of there. Anytime I see people like you with the whole "VC on discord" makes me cringe af. I swear Debate community outside of VsBattle is quite weird af nowadays.

"You committed a fallacy!" Oh wow, nobody cares 😴

Logical Fallacy

"One thing to keep in mind, is that even if someone is using a fallacy, it does not necessarily mean that their argument is not true. It merely means that they are attempting to argue for it improperly."
From the wiki itself 😐
why are you so mad
 
Don't worry about it, I think I know why, and if you knew too you'd understand.
 
It did, because you're leaving out contextual details.
News flash, it's not just me and you in this thread, it's not about arguing with me, it's about proving and establishing that your point is true, if your point deals with skewed info due to simplification, that's still it being skewed.



You mean me? yeah, I did add details, because they matter to the point of the thread.
Simplifying or pretending it's something it's not is so goddamn counter productive that everyone would be better off ignoring you by virtue of you butchering the mechanics.



Then you're in the wrong thread for that because this thread has that as a key topic and you making it hard for third parties to get a proper understanding of it is counter productive to everyone involved, cease if you can't be bothered to be hyper specific and precise, because it's not jojo fans you need to take into account, I know what you mean, doesn't mean others don't, if that was the case we wouldn't of had that issue earlier with telling people to read it themselves and stuff.

I think the majority of your confusion is coming from how im using the term "reset". No I am not using it as to imply that its the exact same universe, i'm using it to refer to this event. And this thread was literally made to discuss his 2-c rating, to my knowledge, not to simplify for people who don't understand the verse how MIH works.


Reading comprehension, I said some things are a facet of his Stand, I also said some things are a natural law, yet here you are trying to say all of it is natural, new flash it isn't.

Here, I'll quote myself, "some of it is universal constants at play, which there is, no denying that of course, there is some natural laws happening, but to go "lol Pucci does nothing and it's just time accel and NOTHING else" is blatant disingenuity,"

And show the scans? You do realize the very scans you posted are talking about MIH right? The Stand, it's ability, and the mechanics of it, it never once states that's the universe's doing lad, in fact, the very fact it's listed under how the ability works in both the manga and the guides should be evidence enough it's MIH, not some unspoken universal rule. L



Would be cool if that was an actual argument or fallacy I was doing, maybe I wasn't blunt enough, my bad, what I'm doing is calling you out on hypocritical stances.
You're saying "well it not saying pucci doesnt do it doesnt mean he does", in case you aren't self-aware of your own arguments, you realize that's literally what you're doing right? It's never actually stated half this shit is the universe's doing or a natural law, and what is a natural occurring phenomena IS stated to be such, the emergence of a new world for example? Never stated to be universal constants.
Yet you're arguing it is, funny that right? I'm basically calling you a hypocrite. Especially as seen below given you're going hard on that front, pot meet kettle. At the end of the day, it's still ED, the fact that it's connected to MIH somehow and it's under his control is reason enough.

No, I'm not advocating Pucci is 100% the direct cause, but I am advocating he has some connections to it, it's somehow connected to his ability, because that at the very least is true even if the extent is hard to tell.


That or just deductive reasoning. If we can confirm it's not a natural law, by proxy it makes it a facet of the Stand.
Now is that possible? For a few aspects sure, not all, but some.


First off, kindly piss off with your fallacial bullshit.
Secondly, maybe it didn't hit you the first four times, you realize the scan that explicitly points out the emergence of a new world is talking about his ability, and when it speaks of natural law it points out that it is one.

But hey, I'll grab raws and get an ex-mod to even translate some of it when I'm available on PC.

Though, think for a second on what that means. And fate? No, the fate part is actually pre-ordained, but he can cut it off according to JoJoveller, and of course, change the fates of himself and others as he isn't bound to it (gee wonder why he isn't bound to fate/destiny in this new world when everyone else is 🤔, couldnt possibly because he somehow had involvement could it?).



Or common sense, deductive reasoning, and not just being ignorant as **** and ignoring straight up critical aspects of the ability and goals of the character in question and pretending it's just some random coincidence opposed to this extremely impossible situation somehow has zero connections to the ability that initiated all this in the first place.

It's not even a probability, it's called stop pretending shit doesn't exist.



Why in the **** would I go to discord to discuss this? And especially VC?
I mean, no offense, but I wouldn't care if I never had to speak to you again, I don't even want to do this right now in general and barely have the ability to do so properly, the only reason why I even responded to you in the first place is because I kinda have to for the sake of others and this thread, not because I actually care nor want to discuss MIH with you or anyone for that matter. I have like zero free time, having actual personal matters to attend to, I don't even have access to a PC so my ability to grab scans is limited to whatever the **** I can grab off google at the moment or whatever I already have uploaded to imgur instead of loading up and compiling albums with scans of guides, raws and the like with proper translations, breakdowns and more, but no, I'm here because I have to, so people don't get trigger happy and decide to downgrade probably the most straightforward example of Environmental Destruction I've ever seen because people think there's a bunch of unspoken rules to ED that aren't listed on the page for it for some reason.

Put simply, no, I quite frankly ain't doing shit beyond the bare minimum and it's gonna be relegated to this thread only.

When I have time to properly compile all the scans, translations and more, I'll likely do so if we still need them by then as I told AKM hours ago.
Alright this is gonna be the last time i respond since clearly your adamant on not changing my mind and this isn't really going anywhere
It did, because you're leaving out contextual details.
News flash, it's not just me and you in this thread, it's not about arguing with me, it's about proving and establishing that your point is true, if your point deals with skewed info due to simplification, that's still it being skewed.



You mean me? yeah, I did add details, because they matter to the point of the thread.
Simplifying or pretending it's something it's not is so goddamn counter productive that everyone would be better off ignoring you by virtue of you butchering the mechanics.
I've already explained twice and given explanations on how his ability specifically works, sorry but I'm not nor am i obligated to referring to his ability in a more complicated way than needed.
Reading comprehension, I said some things are a facet of his Stand, I also said some things are a natural law, yet here you are trying to say all of it is natural, new flash it isn't.

Here, I'll quote myself, "some of it is universal constants at play, which there is, no denying that of course, there is some natural laws happening, but to go "lol Pucci does nothing and it's just time accel and NOTHING else" is blatant disingenuity,"

And show the scans? You do realize the very scans you posted are talking about MIH right? The Stand, it's ability, and the mechanics of it, it never once states that's the universe's doing lad, in fact, the very fact it's listed under how the ability works in both the manga and the guides should be evidence enough it's MIH, not some unspoken
universal rule. L
Ok so unless you can quantify or prove which things pucci is doing and which things are naturally occuring, asserting Pucci is doing anything without concrete evidence is simply fallacious. And again just because its not stated that it was the universe doing that, doesn't mean it was the universe wasn't doing that, thats another argument from ignorance. And if its stated fate/the universe was created by made in heaven or in guides JUST SHOW ME, its not that hard what the hell...
Would be cool if that was an actual argument or fallacy I was doing, maybe I wasn't blunt enough, my bad, what I'm doing is calling you out on hypocritical stances.
You're saying "well it not saying pucci doesnt do it doesnt mean he does", in case you aren't self-aware of your own arguments, you realize that's literally what you're doing right? It's never actually stated half this shit is the universe's doing or a natural law, and what is a natural occurring phenomena IS stated to be such, the emergence of a new world for example? Never stated to be universal constants.
Yet you're arguing it is, funny that right? I'm basically calling you a hypocrite. Especially as seen below given you're going hard on that front, pot meet kettle. At the end of the day, it's still ED, the fact that it's connected to MIH somehow and it's under his control is reason enough.
What im trying to say is that we cannot assume Pucci is creating the universe or fate if there is nothing supporting that. If it confuses you, think of me taking the neutral stance, and you on what i think is the positive that he is creating the universe or fate. I don't believe is necessarily ED, ill just spell it out for you this time and tell you ill take a neutral stance on this, because all the scan says is the end of the universe, which doesn't necessarily indicate pucci is the one doing it, for all we know it could be something that naturally happens, not something caused by Pucci or MIH itself. And again ill ask you to show proof he set out the fate of the universe (im taking neutral again).
No, I'm not advocating Pucci is 100% the direct cause, but I am advocating he has some connections to it, it's somehow connected to his ability, because that at the very least is true even if the extent is hard to tell.


That or just deductive reasoning. If we can confirm it's not a natural law, by proxy it makes it a facet of the Stand.
Now is that possible? For a few aspects sure, not all, but some.
If you cannot identify what Pucci is doing and what is naturally occuring, asserting Pucci can do anything, unless backed up by something concrete, would be fallacious.
Well sure, maybe I'm not, but given how much you're half-assing it and leaving out key details and simplifying things by your own admission makes it kinda hard to tell. What you're saying betrays your intent basically.
If you think I'm being dishonest I don't know what to even tell you, i've shown you everything I could.
First off, kindly piss off with your fallacial bullshit.
Secondly, maybe it didn't hit you the first four times, you realize the scan that explicitly points out the emergence of a new world is talking about his ability, and when it speaks of natural law it points out that it is one.
If your argument is fallacious obviously we cannot take it to hold any sort of weight, so i'm not gonna ignore fallacious arguments you use and not call them out bro what 💀
The scan i sent explains how the loop works, it doesn't assert everything within it is caused by pucci which is why im asking you to identify and prove pucci what pucci did (specifically create the universe/fate)
But hey, I'll grab raws and get an ex-mod to even translate some of it when I'm available on PC.

Though, think for a second on what that means. And fate? No, the fate part is actually pre-ordained, but he can cut it off according to JoJoveller, and of course, change the fates of himself and others as he isn't bound to it (gee wonder why he isn't bound to fate/destiny in this new world when everyone else is 🤔, couldnt possibly because he somehow had involvement could it?).
Yeah ill just wait on all of that.
Or common sense, deductive reasoning, and not just being ignorant as **** and ignoring straight up critical aspects of the ability and goals of the character in question and pretending it's just some random coincidence opposed to this extremely impossible situation somehow has zero connections to the ability that initiated all this in the first place.

It's not even a probability, it's called stop pretending shit doesn't exist.
Since when was asking for proof being ignorant what? 💀 I pointed out your reasoning was fallacious and saying its just "common sense" is another fallacious argument (appeal to common sense). And i never asserted it was a random coincidence, I'm saying that there might not be a possibility it was created naturally or by a force external to them, or literally anything else, so given all of these possibilities i asked you to prove why out of all these explanations that yours is superior.
Also I find it funny your saying its not a probability when you said it was multiple times.
No, I'm not advocating Pucci is 100% the direct cause, but I am advocating he has some connections to it, it's somehow connected to his ability, because that at the very least is true even if the extent is hard to tell.
here
No, I'm not advocating Pucci is 100% the direct cause, but I am advocating he has some connections to it, it's somehow connected to his ability, because that at the very least is true even if the extent is hard to tell.
here
Here, I'll quote myself, "some of it is universal constants at play, which there is, no denying that of course, there is some natural laws happening, but to go "lol Pucci does nothing and it's just time accel and NOTHING else" is blatant disingenuity,"
and there. Now onto the last bit.
Why in the **** would I go to discord to discuss this? And especially VC?
I mean, no offense, but I wouldn't care if I never had to speak to you again, I don't even want to do this right now in general and barely have the ability to do so properly, the only reason why I even responded to you in the first place is because I kinda have to for the sake of others and this thread, not because I actually care nor want to discuss MIH with you or anyone for that matter. I have like zero free time, having actual personal matters to attend to, I don't even have access to a PC so my ability to grab scans is limited to whatever the **** I can grab off google at the moment or whatever I already have uploaded to imgur instead of loading up and compiling albums with scans of guides, raws and the like with proper translations, breakdowns and more, but no, I'm here because I have to, so people don't get trigger happy and decide to downgrade probably the most straightforward example of Environmental Destruction I've ever seen because people think there's a bunch of unspoken rules to ED that aren't listed on the page for it for some reason.

Put simply, no, I quite frankly ain't doing shit beyond the bare minimum and it's gonna be relegated to this thread only.

When I have time to properly compile all the scans, translations and more, I'll likely do so if we still need them by then as I told AKM hours ago.
Because it would be easier to progress dialectics and come to a general consensus, which should be the point of every discussion 😭 but ok. And no one is asking you to do anything for the sake of the thread, nor is anyone forcing you, you are only doing this quite literally cause you chose to. Anyways since you have already told me you arent willing to do it i doubt im gonna respond unless you present scans or say something I find really dumb.
Have a nice day.
 
"VC on discord" Dude get that shit out of there. Anytime I see people like you with the whole "VC on discord" makes me cringe af. I swear Debate community outside of VsBattle is quite weird af nowadays.

"You committed a fallacy!" Oh wow, nobody cares 😴

Logical Fallacy

"One thing to keep in mind, is that even if someone is using a fallacy, it does not necessarily mean that their argument is not true. It merely means that they are attempting to argue for it improperly."
From the wiki itself 😐
How is asking to discuss opinions over a call cringe 💀 if you have speech impediment issues just say that lmao
"You committed a fallacy!" Oh wow, nobody cares 😴
If your argument is fallacious obviously the reasoning used for your argument wouldn't be accepted, and if that is the only argument presented then the entire point that was attempted to be made falls apart.
"One thing to keep in mind, is that even if someone is using a fallacy, it does not necessarily mean that their argument is not true. It merely means that they are attempting to argue for it improperly."
From the wiki itself 😐
If you actually bothered to read what you sent me, it literally tells you that if an argument is fallacious then the way they are arguing for it is improper, and if they cannot use that argument, and we are left with no proper argument, then the entire point would be dismissed.
 
How is asking to discuss opinions over a call cringe 💀 if you have speech impediment issues just say that lmao

If your argument is fallacious obviously the reasoning used for your argument wouldn't be accepted, and if that is the only argument presented then the entire point that was attempted to be made falls apart.

If you actually bothered to read what you sent me, it literally tells you that if an argument is fallacious then the way they are arguing for it is improper, and if they cannot use that argument, and we are left with no proper argument, then the entire point would be dismissed.
Enjoy Rule Violations.
 
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