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The Low 2-C Pucci Thread

I've already explained twice and given explanations on how his ability specifically works, sorry but I'm not nor am i obligated to referring to his ability in a more complicated way than needed.
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You QUITE LITERALLY are. Did you miss earlier in the thread? It's not just you here, be specific, be exact, if you don't then kindly leave said thread because you're not helping, you're actively going against the needs of other's here, it's not just you, me or a few other knowledgeable dudes, this thread has hundreds and hundreds of views, some of which already pointed out they don't know the details, so don't leave them out, they're important. And yes, do so every time, don't try and explain it then go back to half-assing it, that just makes it more confusing for others.

Ok so unless you can quantify or prove which things pucci is doing and which things are naturally occuring,
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Yes, some of that is possible. hell some of we can tell is a joint concern, such as some aspects of the fate stuff, as MIH can both cut it off, is immune and can change it, while the new world has a similar preset natural flow predestined.

asserting Pucci is doing anything without concrete evidence is simply fallacious.
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Hello kettle? You realize that's quite literally all you've done correct? You realize literally nothing but the new universe having a similar set destiny to the old one is stated to be a natural law right? Yet here we are, even though it's explicitly talking about a facet of the Stand, that it's not due to it for some ass backwards reason.

Or hey, what about the fact the evidence is in the manga itself, scans that even you've posted 🤔
Some things can be deduced lad.

And again just because its not stated that it was the universe doing that, doesn't mean it was the universe wasn't doing that,
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Ahem, to quote you. "just because its not stated that pucci isn't creating the new universe or fate, doesn't mean its not the case what?"

Again, do you have any self awareness? You're being a hypocrite, blatantly so, you're worse off here because I'm not even the person who started such claims, it was y o u.

It's not stated Pucci does explicitly, but guess what else is also true? It's not stated it's the universe either. Neither are stated, instead we have to deduce who or what is doing it.

Given the actual emergence of the new world is directly noted under MIH's aspects, and the new world for some reason effects everything BUT him, it's clear he had SOME hand in it, far beyond what you're insinuating, which is to say, you're saying he didn't have anything to do with it at all and had no hand in it as you stated in your initial post,, acting like "well he simply isnt effected because uh...", is dumb, cease it, if we're shown and told a new universe is created, noted while under the abilities of a specific character, and this new world follows a fated path as per character's goal but said character is also, coincidentally or not so coincidentally, immune to said fate but can also actively change it along with the destiny of others? It's pretty damn clear he's involved and isn't just a natural law of "lol new universe".

thats another argument from ignorance. And if its stated fate/the universe was created by made in heaven or in guides JUST SHOW ME, its not that hard what the hell...
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"It's not hard dude I'll just ignore that it's been established long before I joined the thread that both the primary people here arguing it aren't home, in the hospital, or busy dealing with people that are and both said they'll do if needed when available".

I ******* wish I could post the proper scans just to get you off my back at this point, **** I could probably even get Redgrave to translate them for me, he's been quite helpful for the most part.

All I have on me is a few stray scans, and for some reason the Japanese translation and kanji rip from the manga spreadsheet, which I only have because I sent to someone awhile back and they sent it back again. I mean, I could post that I guess?

Not that it matters to the purpose of the thread anyhow, but nah, I stand by what I said.

What im trying to say is that we cannot assume Pucci is creating the universe or fate if there is nothing supporting that.
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There is though? There's unironically more evidence for Pucci then a natural law, which is baffling given how little the former there is, but a little is better than the none of the latter.
Would still be ED regardless.

If it confuses you, think of me taking the neutral stance, and you on what i think is the positive that he is creating the universe or fate.
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Piss off with tone, even I'm not that condescending and I can be pretty damn condescending.
He clearly has some hand in fate, and in a situation were Pucci nor the universe are told to be the exact reason why a new one is created but we see plain as day a new one emerges from the singularity point, which is a direct result of MIH's gravity manip, with said new world having specific rules that benefit Pucci and ONLY Pucci, it's pretty obvious it's not a completely natural occurrence, he's involved somehow, and if he's involved somehow, that's ED.

I don't believe is necessarily ED,
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Well hate to break it to you, but it fits the standards for it. Which admittedly, there isn't much for standards for ED, but that's the wiki's issue, not mine.

ill just spell it out for you this time and tell you ill take a neutral stance on this, because all the scan says is the end of the universe, which doesn't necessarily indicate pucci is the one doing it, for all we know it could be something that naturally happens, not something caused by Pucci or MIH itself. And again ill ask you to show proof he set out the fate of the universe (im taking neutral again).
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The end of the universe is EXPLICITLY his doing, it's caused by the forceful disproportionate acceleration of time, objects, energy and more through twisting it with gravity on a universal scale. That's straight up him, he's the cause, and it isn't entirely "natural but fast" either otherwise the adverse effects wouldn't even be a thing.
That's straight up fact.

The only issue is whether or not the birth of a new world is Pucci's doing or not, and given we unironically have more reasoning to believe it something HE manipulated then the universe, which straight up has nothing regarding it in reference to this aspect in particular, I'd assume the former over the latter, or better yet, neither because it doesn't matter truthfully, but given we're arguing it now and I HAVE to pick one or the other seemingly, picking the former over the latter that has nothing.

If your argument is fallacious obviously we cannot take it to hold any sort of weight, so i'm not gonna ignore fallacious arguments you use and not call them out bro what 💀The scan i sent explains how the loop works, it doesn't assert everything within it is caused by pucci which is why im asking you to identify and prove pucci what pucci did (specifically create the universe/fate)
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Actually, we can, being fallacious doesn't mean it's inherently wrong. Though if we're pointing out fallacies or attempting to anyway, do you honestly think you haven't done any yourself? Because holy shit, if only.

The scan you sent explains the loop, caused by MIH, in regards to MIH, and specifies on that very page what ISNT MIH. It doesn't assert everything with in it is caused by MIH, instead it goes out of its way to assert what ISNT caused by MIH. Hmm?

If we have a whole page dedicated to how it works, and it specifies what's a natural law, why the **** wouldn't what isn't specified not be concluded to be the hand of the only other factor at play here, especially when it happens in such an impossible way in function, that even if it WS natural 100%, it wouldn't play out as we see it?

Since when was asking for proof being ignorant what? 💀 I pointed out your reasoning was fallacious
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Never said it was, wasn't talking about asking for scans, in fact, good on you, that's a good habit to have, trusting everything blindly can leas to trouble sometimes but I wasn't calling that ignorant I was referring to Ignoring aspects and key elements don't exist or happen and aren't indicative of anything, that's ignorant. And you've done so, like four times.

and saying its just "common sense" is another fallacious argument (appeal to common sense).
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Yeah, it is, common sense, saying "hey dude this is actually pretty obvious, use common sense", regardless of if you want to call it a fallacy as if that somehow makes it wrong, the matter of the fact is, yes, use common sense, it's not exactly mental gymnastics.

And i never asserted it was a random coincidence,
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You literally claimed "And for whatever reason, pucci is unaffected by fate." among other such times, so no, you didn't use that word precisely, but you are indeed chalking up Pucci's clear aspects of it as "idk" instead of making actual sense of it with the info presented.

I'm saying that there might not be a possibility it was created naturally or by a force external to them, or literally anything else, so given all of these possibilities i asked you to prove why out of all these explanations that yours is superior. Also I find it funny your saying its not a probability when you said it was multiple times.
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I'm saying my argument isn't based on a probability fallacy, not that there wasn't any? Huge difference there.
I'm saying stop ignoring key aspects to the events and sequence at hand. It might not be a 100%, but my argument isn't "well shit, it's one of these so I pick this one over the other", I'm arguing and as such reaching my conclusion based on what info and specifics of the ability we get given to us, not random chance, so yes, as I said, not a matter of a probability (fallacy) but rather you not ignoring critical shit. And a force external to them? An external force was NEVER an option here, it's simply not on the table, it's either Pucci or a the universe, one of the two, no other option.

We are told that destiny of the organisms and the events of the new world was in part, a natural expected phenomena.
We are also told a bunch of shit that doesn't bother to specify it's natural but instead just lops it under MIH's ability.
We also know, and are even shown, the new world just so happen to adhere exactly to Pucci's goals and whims, it emerges from something that he himself explicitly caused, and more.

Why the hell we not assume that the character that applies to is somehow involved in it? Because it sure as **** ain't completely 100% natural, if it was, Pucci would be effected to, but he isn't.

Unless it is 100% we cannot hold that to be the truth no matter the probability, without further evidence you would be applying an appeal to probability fallacy.
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Again, hypocritical stance for an ultimately trivial aspect of the thread? I mean this earnestly when I say, your whole issue with everything I've said unironically applies to your points as well, the difference is I've said as such thrice and at least gave reason as to why i reached my conclusion, even if ultimately, it doesn't matter to the purpose of the thread and whether it is or isn't ED.
And dude, ignoring that this whole argument doesn't effect if he does or doesn't have low 2-C ED and may as well be derailing at this point, you do know conclusions can be made using relative information and deductive reasoning?
If MIH's vague points are this much of an issue to you I'd hate to see what you think of GER.

Yeah ill just wait on all of that
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That would've been optimal from the start but eh.

Because it would be easier to progress dialectics and come to a general consensus, which should be the point of every discussion 😭
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Yeah dude let's just have the whole wiki join too in the VC while we're at it.
Maybe it wasn't obvious, not out of malicious intent or whatever word you wanna use, but I'm not arguing with you because I give a damn what you think on the matter, I'm doing it because I'm forced to all the while being beyond unprepared to tackle this thread properly, would've been cool if this thread waited a week or two when people actually had time to compile an actual breakdown and fact check everything as well as see what the ability and the like properly adheres to but no, it somehow came out of nowhere because people on a FT thread of all things decided to point fingers even though it couldn't be any further from a proper comparison, so here we are, not at all ready because **** being prepared, not withstanding people are in the hospital, and not just one so that's doubly ******.

but ok. And no one is asking you to do anything for the sake of the thread, nor is anyone forcing you, you are only doing this quite literally cause you chose to.
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You have no idea do you?
I had no less than 14 different people link me this, some of which basically straight up told me to do such, unfortunately, yeah, it's on me to actually make sure nobody does anything to dumb or without pointing out the other side here, especially as I'm a bit short on help here.
I'm doing this because I was asked, nobody else seems willing or that they can't due to irl complications, and because the alternative is to just have an in-accurate profile which I take issue with, our job is to be be accurate and informative, not dismiss or ignore shit.

Anyways since you have already told me you arent willing to do it i doubt im gonna respond unless you present scans or say something I find really dumb.
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Of course I'm not, bad enough I have to do it here let alone there.
 
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Brak said:
wtf happened to this thread?
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It's just that time of the week lad.
LeSupremeKing1 said:
How is asking to discuss opinions over a call cringe 💀 if you have speech impediment issues just say that lmao
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What the **** man.
Ignoring that.
Pretty sure it could be numerous issues, to even randomly giving out your discord and calling with a completely random person you have no idea who is being sus, to simply finding it annoying, to even, ironically, the very thing you claimed, among a possible few hundred other reasons.

It doesn't matter why they don't want to, as long as they follow wiki etiquette and do so here, discord doesn't matter.
 
別の宇宙の誕生 (バラレルワールドと考えてもいい) Birth of another universe. (You can think of it as another world/dimension).

星々が出来るのが必然なら地球と同じ惑星だってこの宇宙のどこかに出来るはずだちゅう If it is inevitable that stars shall be formed, then even the same planet as earth should be formed in this universe.

その惑星にも 大気が出来 生命が生まれ恐竜が滅び 前の地球と 同じような運命をたどるのが必然だ そして新しい歴史の誕生 It is inevitable that the planet will have an atmosphere, life will be born, and dinosaurs will perish. It will inevitably follow the same fate as the previous earth, and the birth of a new history.

無限大に加速する時の中を旅して来た生物たちにとってはこの旅は一瞬の出来事に感じる For the creatures who have traveled through the time of infinite acceleration, this journey feels like a momentary event.

新しい歴史は誕生したが 宇宙を旅して来た生命たちの地球到着を運命の中にあらかじめ組み込んである歴史のはずだ A new history was born, but it must be a history that pre-embeds the arrival of life on this earth, who have traveled through space, into their destiny.

つまり同時に同じ人間は2人いないし住んでいた時と同じような場所に到着する In other words, at the same time, there are no two people who are the same, and they arrive at the same place as when they lived.

たとえ蟻一匹でさえ 運命の中に組み込まれて新しい世界に到着する Even a single ant is incorporated into fate and arrives in a new world

人は「運命を切り開く」と考えられているがもしかしたらその切り開くことすら運命の中に組み込まれているのかもしれない People are thought "open up their destiny", but perhaps even that act was embedded into their destiny.

jap translation.
 


Manipulates gravity of earth, the moon, the whole universe to achieve its effects.



Pucci all but confirms he's somehow connected/involved in this and if he dies, it'll all be undone. (Which fyi, he does, his head pops like a balloon and everything is undone in some sort of paradoxical fashion).



Pucci stating he's the only exception to fate in this new world.



Fate in the new world is preordained (this part is a natural law) but Pucci can change destiny in this world with his actions, which leads to his downfall.


That's all the scans besides that baseball scan and the the end of the world scans which I posted earlier, all I have on me atm, it's the best I can do for now.
 
We still kinda need to rewrite the justification, change to ED and clarify a few things.

The actual downgrade aspect of it not being ED hard pass though imo but some work does need to be done, the thread isnt in vain.
e̶v̶e̶n̶ ̶i̶f̶ ̶i̶t̶ ̶c̶a̶m̶e̶ ̶o̶u̶t̶ ̶o̶f̶ ̶n̶o̶w̶h̶e̶r̶e̶ ̶w̶i̶t̶h̶ ̶f̶u̶c̶k̶i̶n̶g̶ ̶b̶a̶d̶ ̶t̶i̶m̶i̶n̶g̶

Though just my stance on this, cant speak for others, ironically.
 
So what's Pucci AP scaled now except the l2c ED things??

Because the range were unknown as he's doesn't control fully the MIH gravitational range and accelerated ability?

It is were count as Universal+? Or Universal?? If he scaled by that, then why the ED still included as the impact of the universal AP gravitational made the universe got changed into new "Space-time" where's the Joestar descendants dont exist?
 
problems. Pucci is pretty much the center of how that works.

the universal reset....gravatational changes and minor fate shit immediately trelie on pucci's ability to e x i s t. we know he does because he's scared that the process will stop when he dies.

and emporio says this aswell.
 
LeSupremeKing1 said:
How is asking to discuss opinions over a call cringe 💀 if you have speech impediment issues just say that lmao

If your argument is fallacious obviously the reasoning used for your argument wouldn't be accepted, and if that is the only argument presented then the entire point that was attempted to be made falls apart.

If you actually bothered to read what you sent me, it literally tells you that if an argument is fallacious then the way they are arguing for it is improper, and if they cannot use that argument, and we are left with no proper argument, then the entire point would be dismissed.
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Thank you for your unneeded, but very, VERY rude concern, but no: I dont have any of these disabilities you seem to speak of.
"Come debate on discord via VC, because why not? ignoring the fact that all the shit we have to discuss about HAS to be on this very thread. I'll also ignore the fact that the OP never said [Come debate on discord fellas], because I dont care anyways. Oh! I should not forget, that I dont really care about 3rd parties, which is obvious enough, given that I dont want those that dont know JoJo to actually understand about what's happening.
Lets also NOT have the discussion itself stay as a text, IN this wiki itself, where said thread was created for people to E X P L A I N via text, and for others to read and understand. This wiki doesnt take the discussion to somewhere else either.

But I still dont care! 🤓 I dont care if people have to listen to my voice either, nor that we all have to talk to eachother. The whole wiki should join as well, where communication sucks and NOT everybody PROBABLY has a mic. Even then, how would we put out our explanations later on- Oh, via recording it? But of course, dont give a **** about consent it haha 🤓"

I could go on and list even more problems to what would happen if we did as you said, fella. Even then, does this wiki say we should go and, "Hop onto discord and VC" 🤔🤨 (Could someone answer this question please)
Do you now understand as to why that sounded cringe? Even then, I dont see as to how texting is difficult though? "If you have speech impediment issues, then say it lmao" If you cant debate on a wiki where its all about text only, and said debate is only supposed to be here, then I dont think you should be here, mate.

"Some people are just better at verbal communication, so it can compensate for their unsound position and potentially lacking reasoning." If this is your reason, then I'm sorry, and with all sincerity that I could muster at best: You'll have to either do it via text, or just dont stay in this thread mate.
Back to another point..

There are other reasons as to why that sounded cringe, too. I just generally dont like the debate community outside of VSBW with how toxic and cringey they are, the "VC debators" even more so. Didnt mean to come off as heated there, so my bad there.

And finally: Fallacies... Ah yes, who thinks that fallacies mean everything? Except for these people you generally meet/see in the debate community outside of VSBW? Fallacies isnt the gospel either, neither does it mean all shit. If you cant counter a person's argument inherently, then fallacies mean all jack here. And even then, why tf is it supposed to hold some big merit here? Wow. 🥴
 
TheGunsFinalWrath said:
Thank you for your unneeded, but very, VERY rude concern, but no: I dont have any of these disabilities you seem to speak of.
"Come debate on discord via VC, because why not? ignoring the fact that all the shit we have to discuss about HAS to be on this very thread. I'll also ignore the fact that the OP never said [Come debate on discord fellas], because I dont care anyways. Oh! I should not forget, that I dont really care about 3rd parties, which is obvious enough, given that I dont want those that dont know JoJo to actually understand about what's happening.
Lets also NOT have the discussion itself stay as a text, IN this wiki itself, where said thread was created for people to E X P L A I N via text, and for others to read and understand. This wiki doesnt take the discussion to somewhere else either.

But I still dont care! 🤓 I dont care if people have to listen to my voice either, nor that we all have to talk to eachother. The whole wiki should join as well, where communication sucks and NOT everybody PROBABLY has a mic. Even then, how would we put out our explanations later on- Oh, via recording it? But of course, dont give a **** about consent it haha 🤓"

I could go on and list even more problems to what would happen if we did as you said, fella. Even then, does this wiki say we should go and, "Hop onto discord and VC" 🤔🤨 (Could someone answer this question please)
Do you now understand as to why that sounded cringe? Even then, I dont see as to how texting is difficult though? "If you have speech impediment issues, then say it lmao" If you cant debate on a wiki where its all about text only, and said debate is only supposed to be here, then I dont think you should be here, mate.

"Some people are just better at verbal communication, so it can compensate for their unsound position and potentially lacking reasoning." If this is your reason, then I'm sorry, and with all sincerity that I could muster at best: You'll have to either do it via text, or just dont stay in this thread mate.
Back to another point..

There are other reasons as to why that sounded cringe, too. I just generally dont like the debate community outside of VSBW with how toxic and cringey they are, the "VC debators" even more so. Didnt mean to come off as heated there, so my bad there.

And finally: Fallacies... Ah yes, who thinks that fallacies mean everything? Except for these people you generally meet/see in the debate community outside of VSBW? Fallacies isnt the gospel either, neither does it mean all shit. If you cant counter a person's argument inherently, then fallacies mean all jack here. And even then, why tf is it supposed to hold some big merit here? Wow. 🥴
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The reason I came on this wiki primarily, was to change peoples opinions on certain topics whether its within this wiki, or outside of it, because I believe the point of all discussions is to come to a general consensus, and actually be able to understand each other properly, rather than text debate for hours and days and going ad nauseum.

"Some people are just better at verbal communication, so it can compensate for their unsound position and potentially lacking reasoning." If this is your reason, then I'm sorry, and with all sincerity that I could muster at best: You'll have to either do it via text, or just dont stay in this thread mate.
Back to another point..
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That wasn't my point i said i could explain myself better on a vc and you could understand my argument better in a vc, not because my position is unsound or lacks reasoning which i strongly disagree with and I find especially dumb considered I explained my reasoning and stance multiple times and provided evidence for it.
There are other reasons as to why that sounded cringe, too. I just generally dont like the debate community outside of VSBW with how toxic and cringey they are, the "VC debators" even more so. Didnt mean to come off as heated there, so my bad there.
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They aren't all "vc debaters" although the best/better ones such as seththeprogrammer, aero, trini, etc, are, and I would think its because again is vastly harder to come to a general consensus when your typing and spending hours and days waiting for a response. Nobody is forcing you or anyone else, I simply asked, and it was rejected, so I stopped replying to him because I said everything i possibly could and I don't think we can ever reach a conclusion the way we were going.
And finally: Fallacies... Ah yes, who thinks that fallacies mean everything? Except for these people you generally meet/see in the debate community outside of VSBW? Fallacies isnt the gospel either, neither does it mean all shit. If you cant counter a person's argument inherently, then fallacies mean all jack here. And even then, why tf is it supposed to hold some big merit here? Wow. 🥴
Click to expand...
I never said I think fallacy's mean everything. I think if your argument is fallacious, then the way your arguing it must not be based on sound reasoning, which is why im pointing out the fallacies because thats literally me pointing out the failure in reasoning. If you think you can argue for something fallaciously and expect that anyone competent will let that slide without pointing out that error, then I seriously don't know what to tell you.
 
Man, you just can't leave a thread unmoderated without it turning to a cringefest...

@DontTalkDT what do you think about this case?
 
I'm going to wait until a new wording is proposed for Pucci's profile to elaborate, but with the "Environmental Destruction" of MiH noted, it shouldn't be Low 2-C but 3-A.
 
I still think the wording should at least be more accurate. Environmental destruction in this situation results in the recreation of said environment, really far from what you would expect from a low 2-C, and it's not mentionned on pucci's profile
 
From skimming through the replies of the thread I have yet to see a scan suggesting anything above 3-A. For Low 2-C I would want to see it with context, as things like a new history and future and stuff can easily be figurative.

As for the question of environmental destruction or not: That depends a bit on how you read the page in question. If you define it as the ability to damage an environment then yes. (Although I wonder how we would define the size of an area necessary to reach a certain ED rating then)
If one reads it as non-combat applicable AP, meaning that it is measured in energy, I'm a bit sceptical of the idea that the weird time manipulation effects regarding KE should be equalled to infinite non-combat applicable attack power. Since the idea is to bring the universe to its natural ends giving everything infinite KE that would instantly destroy it sounds somewhat weird. If it should be infinite KE, it would be High 3-A ED, though.
 
DontTalkDT said:
From skimming through the replies of the thread I have yet to see a scan suggesting anything above 3-A. For Low 2-C I would want to see it with context, as things like a new history and future and stuff can easily be figurative.

As for the question of environmental destruction or not: That depends a bit on how you read the page in question. If you define it as the ability to damage an environment then yes. (Although I wonder how we would define the size of an area necessary to reach a certain ED rating then)
If one reads it as non-combat applicable AP, meaning that it is measured in energy, I'm a bit sceptical of the idea that the weird time manipulation effects regarding KE should be equalled to infinite non-combat applicable attack power. Since the idea is to bring the universe to its natural ends giving everything infinite KE that would instantly destroy it sounds somewhat weird. If it should be infinite KE, it would be High 3-A ED, though.
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that's what I kinda suggested earlier actually, with the whole multi galaxy level thing
even tho that's different
 
TheGunsFinalWrath said:
What do you mean by "Multi Galaxy level"? Are you talking about MIH being that?
Click to expand...
well it was kinda debunked already I think? But if made in heaven were accelerating time and nothing else then it would be accelerating preixisting matter and energy which is finite, so the environmental damage wouldn't affect the space of the actual universe so it couldn't be an actual universal feat was what I thought
 
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