The Low 2-C Pucci Thread

[Cloozuma]

well it was kinda debunked already I think? But if made in heaven were accelerating time and nothing else then it would be accelerating preixisting matter and energy which is finite, so the environmental damage wouldn't affect the space of the actual universe so it couldn't be an actual universal feat was what I thought

It wasn't debunked. Also Pucci created a new universe iirc

 

[ZillertheBucko]

It wasn't debunked. Also Pucci created a new universe iirc

I meant that I was the one who got debunked

 

[Cloozuma]

I meant that I was the one who got debunked

Ah kk. Though we need Chariot to respond here.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Ah kk. Though we need Chariot to respond here.

chariot knows way more about this than me so yeah

 

[Chariot190]

M3X asked me to compile all the fate/destiny/gravity related info in JoJo so I'm doing that atm, I've gone through Parts 1-3, JoJonium and I'm half done 4, that's topical and kinda relevant to this and MIH as a whole, especially given gravity/fate is kinda MIH's schtick so I guess I should finish that first as it'll help out.
Secondly, I have to clarify and give context to DontTalk later, I'll do that when I hit Part 6 for the above task.

But I mean, I'm definitely in the boat of thinking it's ED (hell he's one of the examples given for ED on the page, I wouldnt be surprised if the ED page was created in part due to pucci existing in the first place) and technically speaking, Low 2-C, 3-A and High 3-A are all right, but just at different points, different facets of MIH's process and ability all hit those at various points, so I guess it depends what we're rating in particular, if not all, given they're all noteworthy, but we'll get to that when we get to it.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

M3X asked me to compile all the fate/destiny/gravity related info in JoJo so I'm doing that atm, I've gone through Parts 1-3, JoJonium and I'm half done 4, that's topical and kinda relevant to this and MIH as a whole, especially given gravity/fate is kinda MIH's schtick so I guess I should finish that first as it'll help out.
Secondly, I have to clarify and give context to DontTalk later, I'll do that when I hit Part 6 for the above task.

But I mean, I'm definitely in the boat of thinking it's ED (hell he's one of the examples given for ED on the page, I wouldnt be surprised if the ED page was created in part due to pucci existing in the first place) and technically speaking, Low 2-C, 3-A and High 3-A are all right, but just at different points, different facets of MIH's process and ability all hit those at various points, so I guess it depends what we're rating in particular, if not all, given they're all noteworthy, but we'll get to that when we get to it.

ok thanks chariot
I guess this can just be covered with a "varies" on his profile then

 

[Chariot190]

"varies" on his profile then

It wouldn't be varies, varies is for something like say, RHCP where the same thing can shift from Point A to Point B and anything inbetween based on various factors at play.

It doesn't so much as varies here as it has solid ratings, but just different facets of it.
Like a missile, the actual rating of the missile on impact and the resulting explosion are different, even if both are from a missile. Bad analogy aside, you get my point.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

ah that makes more sense

 

[AKM sama]

As for the question of environmental destruction or not: That depends a bit on how you read the page in question.

That is what I was thinking too. If it's simply about what one can destroy, then I guess you could say Pucci can destroy a universe by accelerating time.

But if it's about how much non-combat applicable AP one can generate, then Pucci isn't making use of any AP himself. Time hax doesn't correlate with AP (or any quantifiable AP, as the gravity aspect is unquantifiable). Pucci's case is different from a scenario where a character can cause destruction to an environment through their own AP, but they can't manage to use that AP to harm others.

I think this contention is based on how we treat ED, and whether cases like this fit. So a separate staff thread would be appropriate to clarify this.

 

[Livinmeme]

That is what I was thinking too. If it's simply about what one can destroy, then I guess you could say Pucci can destroy a universe by accelerating time.

But if it's about how much non-combat applicable AP one can generate, then Pucci isn't making use of any AP himself. Time hax doesn't correlate with AP (or any quantifiable AP, as the gravity aspect is unquantifiable). Pucci's case is different from a scenario where a character can cause destruction to an environment through their own AP, but they can't manage to use that AP to harm others.

I think this contention is based on how we treat ED, and whether cases like this fit. So a separate staff thread would be appropriate to clarify this.

They alredy explained how it fits

1. isnt just time as he directly uses gravity so "time based ability so it doesnt count" is invalid
2. it have direct and physical ED as reseting AND creating the universe counts

 

[Chariot190]

then Pucci isn't making use of any AP himself. Time hax doesn't correlate with AP

Did you just completely ignore the several hundred times clarifying that's not even truly what's happening?
Because now it's just getting annoying.

Pucci's case is different from a scenario where a character can cause destruction to an environment through their own AP, but they can't manage to use that AP to harm others.

It quite literally isn't, but so much for waiting am I right?

Rather, ED has never been about doing something under one's own AP, if that was the case we wouldn't even have the distinction in the first place, it'd simply be AP.
Let alone ED as a concept exists in part to Pucci and he's been an example of what qualifies, on the page itself, since the page's inception, making this whole debate completely ass backwards in what can or can't qualify as he's one of the defining examples.
Better yet, I could just ask the dude who created the page in the first place the intent.

 

[LordGinSama]

Agree with chariot, Pucci isn't just Manipulating time (which isn't even a direct effect of MiH's powers.) his main ability is gravity Manipulation on a universal scale.


I'd also suggest we all wait till Chariot posts the plethora of evidence he has for Pucci being Low 2-C from the various parts of Jojo. Let's not rush this.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

I agree with Chariot, too.
Also as Gin said: Lets not rush this.
Also, might seem like I am repeating the same thing as M3X said, but like, can any of those that dont have context or real understanding, go and read Part 6 maybe? It would help for us all to come to a better understanding. Or just read the C-Moon and MIH chapters It would seriously help everybody out in this thread. (Imo)

 

[AKM sama]

1. isnt just time as he directly uses gravity so "time based ability so it doesnt count" is invalid

I already mentioned that utilizing the gravitational power of the universe is not universal. Pucci isn't universal for that reason.

Rather, ED has never been about doing something under one's own AP, if that was the case we wouldn't even have the distinction in the first place, it'd simply be AP.

The page mentions that it is non combat applicable AP in its definition. When you talk about AP, it's about how many joules of energy a character can release in one shot. That's what the tiering system is based on. Pucci isn't releasing any quantifiable amount of joules in his attack. I think the page was created by Dargoo and he has retired/left. His individual intent alone wouldn't matter anymore since it is about how we collectively decide to treat it. My point of contention here is not related to this thread, but to better clarify how we treat ED, so I will reserve that discussion for another appropriate thread.

EDIT: Just clarifying that I don't care if we treat it either way. I'm fine with both options. But I think there is room for some clarification on the page itself.

 

[Chariot190]

I'm on Part 5 atm, going over all the fate/destiny/gravity stuff, Part 5 is a big one because I'm gonna have to hunt down interviews as well given Araki has talked about it before. (Honestly there's already a few interesting lines I found regarding it, from Araki's talks about what he calls 'joestar destiny's' in the blurb among others).

By the end of this we should have fate/destiny blog for the verse, which while not wholely MIH related, actually does involve him and his powers, although it won't just be about him even if his end game was directly connected and makes use of it. Would also help with King Crimson/Epitaph, maybe WoU and others fyi.

Then we just couple that with raws, jpn scans, (probably get some of the discord lads to translate so it's not just an ass machine translation) a breakdown and step by step of the whole process, outside manga info from supplementary sources like interviews and voila, then we can reach a conclusion when basically every piece of MIH info is slapped into a blog or whatever.

Unfortunately due to M3X's hospitalization, and my own personal irl issues I cant just sit there all day gathering stuff but given I'm over half done the main part it shouldn't take forever to compile, like obviously won't be today but hoping to have it compiled tomorrow?

 

[Chariot190]

The page mentions that it is non combat applicable AP in its definition.

Actual semantics, reality warping, plant manip, acid, whatever, there's many examples of what can qualify as ED and even what we treat it as, at least from what I've seen, that isn't inherently "joules", like if a character has the power to turn ground into mud and does it against a whole city, leveling and sinking said city, that's pretty blatant ED but not what can be quantified with joules or straightforward math.

When you talk about AP, it's about how much joules of energy a character can release in one shot.

Would hate to be any reality warper or cosmic tier entity right about now then.

That's what the tiering system is based on.

Till ya hit tier 2 anyway.

Pucci isn't releasing any quantifiable amount of joules in his attack. I think the page was created by Dargoo and he has retired/left.

First off, false, **** at worst he'd still have up to High 3-A based SOLELY on his upper KE manip.
Yeah and I have him on discord, I can literally go ask.

His individual intent alone wouldn't matter anymore since it is about how we collectively decide to treat it.

And collectively we've been doing just fine till five minutes ago so I wouldn't say that's ever been an issue till now and is unironically entirely an issue of semantics given as said, Pucci is a defining example of what qualifies. Given, as we see, universe ends and begins under his own will but he can't focus that power or potential in a meaningful offensive manner.

My point of contention here is not related to this thread, but to better clarify how we treat ED, so I will reserve that discussion for another appropriate thread.

Yeah a 'staff' thread, huge red flag there AKM, especially following "how we collectively decide to treat it", if you want to, unironically, argue semantics, it best be available to everyone given as said, it's how we as a wiki treat it no?

 

[DaReaperMan]

Environmental destruction isn't something to be calculated in joules, AKM you should know this. Environmental Destruction is not Attack Potency in the sense of how hard I punch. It's Attack Potency in the sense of a Sinkhole or the creation of a black hole/star.

 

[AKM sama]

EDIT: Just clarifying that I don't care if we treat it either way. I'm fine with both options. But I think there is room for some clarification on the page itself.

No need to get so defensive all of a sudden. Calm down. I don't have a horse in this race. I simply think the page can use better clarification since DT also shared the same view as what I was thinking after making the thread. Currently, it can be interpreted in two ways.

 

[Chariot190]

I mean, my bad, but ****, no offense to anyone but this came at a really, really, bad time. Obviously m3x, but this came just after my own personal irl issues which still aren't taken care of, and unfortunately, might never be. Having to deal with a controversial thread topic, work and taking care of someone leaves little room to work with. I'm not complaining, it's not on others to go out if their way for someone else's issues on the net but a warning so everyone could get their shit together would've been nice.

 

[AKM sama]

I mean, I did say we are not trying to rush this thread. You should obviously take some time to get better and all.

 

[Thebannanaworkshop]

I mean, my bad, but ****, no offense to anyone but this came at a really, really, bad time. Obviously m3x, but this came just after my own personal irl issues which still aren't taken care of, and unfortunately, might never be. Having to deal with a controversial thread topic, work and taking care of someone leaves little room to work with. I'm not complaining, it's not on others to go out if their way for someone else's issues on the net but a warning so everyone could get their shit together would've been nice.

is M3X's leg injurt getting any better?