The Low 2-C Pucci Thread

[AKM sama]

Users who clearly don't know anything about MiH or gravity and fate in JoJo works are saying whatever the **** they want or understand (via an explanation of someone who also doesn't know anything) and are really acting like this is super normal?

Because that's all mentioned in the page? That's all the information people have to go off of. Whose fault is that?
People who come to the site don't need to have to read everything, it's the job of the wiki to explain everything properly on the page itself. That's the entire point.

Yeah dude, we don't need someone who knows the verse but we sure need a bunch of users who don't know anything. I will make sure to reread Part 6 entirely just to explain MiH. Just come here and heal my body faster so I can leave the hospital or simply wait Chariot190 to write a reply.

You keep making posts about how people don't know or understand anything, and yet you haven't provided a single piece of productive information. If you have no memory of it yourself and have to read it, simply say it like that in the first place without all this aggression. Isn't good for your health considering you're in the hospital. Chariot is already here and this thread isn't getting rushed anyway.

Honestly if they continue like this I suggest a Reply Ban, they are refusing to even attempt to be productive and are just demeaning others. Doesn't matter how knowledgeable they are on a verse or what opinions they have if they don't actually want to explain anything.

Yeah, the next comment like this will earn him a reply ban.

 

[Chariot190]

Chariot is already here and this thread isn't getting rushed anyway.

I'm barely here tbh, like really wish this didn't come out of nowhere either so I had time to actually gather relevant scans and guides at that, I have a **** ton of irl issues between work, medical expenses and taking care of people at play and have for like the past two months ive been dealing with (if I hadn't I'd have had that backlog of calcs done by now), I'm here and can reply but I can't exactly spend ample time debating this, maybe like one or two posts a day beyond lurking on mobile. To the point I've actually been relying on M3X to help out for me (though if he's in the hospital atm, that's a huge oof on both our parts).

Plus my initial reply to the thread got eaten (or well, half of it did) so motivation killed, at this point the simplest thing to do would be call it ED, like it is, and just detail the exact mechanics of it even more so it's not as vague.
Because technically speaking, it isn't even a universal reset, never was one to begin with, it's ending the old universe and birthing a new one, which is even stated to be different then the old one and not just the same at an earlier point in time nor is resetting anything, it even points out in can be regarded as a parallel dimension.

Though if we aren't rushing it that's good to hear, maybe I'll actually have time to formulate a proper response and solution to all our problems in that case.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but doesn’t his Time Acceleration not only end the universe, but as we see in the end, even make a new one? It ends the universe and recreates it or something like that. At the end, there’s a (spoilers) new Jolyne, Emporio and Weather Report riding in a car in the universe after Emporio kills Pucci.

I could be wrong, but wouldn’t that be considered low 2-C?

Idk if yall care about my two cents, but Pucci isnt creating or destroying any universe, hes just accelerating its time to the point where it resets the world. Which is why in this scan it says "the end of the universe" not that pucci destroyed it, and "the emergence of a new world" also not implying that he is creating one. Also even if it did, i don't see in what way time acceleration would scale his durability or attack potency at all.

 

[Purgy]

Also even if it did, i don't see in what way time acceleration would scale his durability or attack potency at all.

It never applied to his physical stats, nor was it ever being argued to.

It's being argued to be Enviromental Destruction, which is causing destruction to the enviroment through indirect means.

Environmental Destruction describes a character's capability to damage and destroy an area around themselves, but not necessarily their capacity to realistically harm their opponent. In practice, this is essentially a non-combat applicable Attack Potency; if a character is able to cause weather phenomena or natural disasters without any reasoning that can support their other statistics being at this level of destructive potency, then they should have trouble or lack the capacity to use these powers to damage characters in comparable tiers.

I want to point out again that Pucci's feat is used as an example of Enviromental Destruction on the page

Funny Valentine's D4C Love Train, and Enrico Pucci's C-Moon and Made in Heaven. Another example of there being no justification to scale the feat to AP, especially seeing as it is not the stand's physical strength that causes these feats, but rather a special ability that just covers a massive area or causes incidental things to happen such as storms.

So really, the issue isn't the feat itself, it's apparently how we treat enviromental destruction.

 

[Livinmeme]

Question why time manip feats of envioremental destrruccion doesnt count as env. destruccion anymore?

 

[LIFE_OF_KING]

Time is not a physical thing

 

[Chariot190]

Idk if yall care about my two cents, but Pucci isnt creating or destroying any universe, hes just accelerating its time to the point where it resets the world.

Again, it's not even an actual reset, I'm not sure where that comes from, especially when that very scan you posted below calls it what could be considered a new dimension.

Which is why in this scan it says "the end of the universe" not that pucci destroyed it, and "the emergence of a new world" also not implying that he is creating one.

Ignoring that scan is talking about MIH's ability as a whole and a, ironically, simplification of what's happening more or less.
MIH is directly involved with the process, the outcome and even the innate destiny that follows suit.

Also even if it did, i don't see in what way time acceleration would scale his durability or attack potency at all.

It ******* doesn't, that's the point, nobody is saying it scales to his AP r durability, in fact it doesn't, blatantly so, and if someone did say that they'd be straight up wrong, it's not even subjective.
But what people are indeed saying is that it's environmental destruction, not applicable in any sort of offensive matter, but something he can cause against the environment itself.

 

[Chariot190]

Time is not a physical thing

Neither is 90% of hax, or most forms of energy.

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

Again, it's not even an actual reset, I'm not sure where that comes from, especially when that very scan you posted below calls it what could be considered a new dimension.

It being considered a parallel universe doesn't contradict my argument nor was it what i was arguing for.

Ignoring that scan is talking about MIH's ability as a whole and a, ironically, simplification of what's happening more or less.
MIH is directly involved with the process, the outcome and even the innate destiny that follows suit.

All made in heaven is doing within that process is accelerating time nothing more, nothing less. He does not control anyones destiny, nor was it stated or implied, he simply is unaffected by the fate that everyone else goes through due to being stuck in the loop of the universe reset.

Which again pucci has no part of, other than accelerating time to reach that point.

It ******* doesn't, that's the point, nobody is saying it scales to his AP r durability, in fact it doesn't, blatantly so, and if someone did say that they'd be straight up wrong, it's not even subjective.

Yeah and i agreed... I don't understand why you are getting aggressive over me agreeing that it should not scale his AP, thats unnecessary and makes you look stupid.

But what people are indeed saying is that it's environmental destruction, not applicable in any sort of offensive matter, but something he can cause against the environment itself.

Enviromental destruction, as stated on the page, cannot be used to scale attack potency therefore regardless if this feat is actually 2-c or not, its inappropriate to have it listed on his AP section instead of his powers and abilities section.

 

[Livinmeme]

Enviromental destruction, as stated on the page, cannot be used to scale attack potency therefore regardless if this feat is actually 2-c or not, its inappropriate to have it listed on his AP section instead of his powers and abilities section.

Envioremental destruccion is a form of AP that can not be used to directly harm your opponents so that still counts

 

[MidnightDawn1]

Time is not a physical thing

Not with that attitude

 

[Livinmeme]

Time is not a physical thing

The origin of pucci ability doesnt matter tho

 

[Sir_Ovens]

Just to expand upon what I said earlier about fate, in Part 4, we see that no matter how much Kira resets time, the China set will always shatter at the start of the day.

In Part 5, we see that Diavolo can't avoid the fate that he sees with Epitath and can only erase the event with King Crimson.

In Part 6, Pucci's whole ass plan is to reset the universe over and over again until the Joestars don't exist. This isn't even up for debate, this is literally what he wants. And he has to reset over and over again because the universe works on gacha rules and each reset is random and Pucci has to reroll to get the universe he wants.

So to reiterate, Pucci isn't destroying the universe with his own power. He's accelerating time using gravity and abusing relativity to speed up the reset process that would have happened naturally even without MiH. So MiH wouldn't scale to Low 2-C AP.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

In Part 6, Pucci's whole ass plan is to reset the universe over and over again until the Joestars don't exist. This isn't even up for debate, this is literally what he wants. And he has to reset over and over again because the universe works on gacha rules and each reset is random and Pucci has to reroll to get the universe he wants.

No that is false, his whole motive is to complete dio's heaven plan, not get rid of the joestars.

So to reiterate, Pucci isn't destroying the universe with his own power. He's accelerating time using gravity and abusing relativity to speed up the reset process that would have happened naturally even without MiH. So MiH wouldn't scale to Low 2-C AP.

What is the counter to this because this makes sense to me, but I'm neutral.

 

[Chariot190]

It being considered a parallel universe doesn't contradict my argument nor was it what i was arguing for.

It does because it's not a ******* reset, if it was a reset it'd be the same universe. Given the very point of this thread is to help clarify shit, you spreading some of that very same confusion does nothing but make things worse.

All made in heaven is doing within that process is accelerating time nothing more, nothing less.

Blatant falsehood, ignorance even.
Ignoring the fact that continuous repetition of saying "lol it's time accel" is getting real ******* annoying from everyone in this thread, that's not even the whole of it.
Maybe using a scan explicitly talking about MIH's ability and insinuating that it's only talking about a natural occurrence and nothing else and acting that NOTHING there has anything to do with MIH's ability and actions itself isn't the smartest thing to use.

Which again pucci has no part of, other than accelerating time to reach that point.

Besides the twisting of space-time, the universal gravity manip, the disproportionate KE and energy, the cutting off of fate, and so on and so forth.

Yeah and i agreed... I don't understand why you are getting aggressive over me agreeing that it should not scale his AP, thats unnecessary and makes you look stupid.

Yeah, it doesn't, but it's still ED at the end of the day, which is the issue "i disagree with it being combat applicable so it shouldnt be listed even as ED". Is basically what I'm getting from you, the former doesn't beget the latter.

He does not control anyones destiny, nor was it stated or implied, he simply is unaffected by the fate that everyone else goes through due to being stuck in the loop of the universe reset.

No but he can explicitly change the course of destiny with his actions, effect other's destiny's and so on and so forth. He is unaffected, he's the only person who is unless he takes action to change that. "being stuck in the loop of the universe reset", Im going to assume the scan you're talking about there and call you out on that being complete conjecture as to why he's immune given ******* EVERYONE is in the same boat as him. And again, it's not even a reset.

Enviromental destruction, as stated on the page, cannot be used to scale attack potency therefore regardless if this feat is actually 2-c or not, its inappropriate to have it listed on his AP section instead of his powers and abilities section.

You do realize that isnt how this works? We list it in the AP section if it qualifies for environmental destruction, the only difference is that we list it AS environmental destruction. Hell we literally do it with his second key too with C-Moon, it's not combat applicable, it's not offensive, but is it a thing? Does it effect the environment? Is it something he causes under his control? Yes, it is, and as such, we list it, with the caveat it it's ED and not normal AP. hat's how that page and terminology works.
You have issue with ED as a whole it seems, take that elsewhere, because as long as it qualifies, it's going to be listed as such in his AP section because that's where ED goes.

 

[Chariot190]

So to reiterate, Pucci isn't destroying the universe with his own power.

Except he is? You're being semantic with the cause, while ignoring the fact that he quite literally does cause the universe to end under his own power. Completely ignoring the birth of a new one.

He's accelerating time using gravity and abusing relativity to speed up the reset process that would have happened naturally even without MiH.

That's a half truth, ignoring the fact he'd have 3-A ED with said gravity manip regardless as that's straight up stated to be on a universal scale and can effect time itself, it's not a complete natural occurrence even with the end result, even if you want to say that "well he's just speeding it up so it doesnt count", the way it happens isn't even natural, the acceleration is disproportionate to how it would be naturally and instead correlates to the acceleration of the time, it's why things have such jacked up KE. And things don't crumble naturally as if over time but instead violently. Even at worst, it wouldn't be natural in process but fast, but more forceful if anything and disproportionate to what it should be, not what it is.

So MiH wouldn't scale to Low 2-C AP.

Still qualifies for Environmental Destruction, hate to be that dude but, all these roundabout caveats and stipulations and even requirements everyone is pointing out needs to happen, don't actually exist on the ED page, it doesn't matter how it happens or comes about, as long as the character can cause quantifiable destruction to the environment and under their own control, that shit is ED. The fact this isn't just simple time manip makes it doubly so.

Also as for your gatcha example.

and is abused by Pucci in Part 6 for the express purpose of finding a universe where the Joestars don't exist.

That's literally not true though?

He CANT abuse it for what you're implying, it's actually impossible. He wanted a world without the Joestars, but the way he was going to obtain it isn't him rolling a dice and praying this reset doesnt have any, in fact we know that's not the case, if Joestars were still alive, they'd be sent over to the new dimension just fine such as Oldseph, Josuke, etc and if they're dead, they're be replaced with a duplicate, as we see with Jotaro and Jolyne, albeit, one that lacks the original soul.

How his ability works outright makes what you're suggesting impossible to happen, he can't roll a dice so it never happens, he has to kill the Joestars himself so they don't get brought over, which is why he stops to kill Emporio, as while not a Joestar, he still considers him something he wants gone and not in his new world.

No matter how many times Pucci tries, he will never get a universe where Joestar anything doesn't exist, not even duplicates, as that isn't how it works, and he knows it.

Pucci has to keep resetting because he can't control the actual universe that is being reset and has to gacha it.

That's, not true at all? Literally all he wanted to do after the first reset was kill Emporio because he wasn't supposed to come because his Stand explicitly relocates the living into the new world. After he killed Emporio he was fine because all his bad connections would've been dead and gone. He wasn't gonna just roll a new universe ad infinitum, in fact, it wouldn't of done anything because that isn't how the Stand works, """"Joestar expies"""" would've been in every new universe, this ain't D4C where he might get lucky, it'll happen every time and that's the whole point, everything is SUPPOSED to be the same, that way everyone will have precognition to what will happen, that's his true goal, give everyone the ability to see the future to come to terms with destiny.

And oddly enough, Pucci is the single person who CAN control anything, he's the only person not subjugated to the fate and events happening, he can change things as he pleases, to his benefit and detriment, such as when he changed Emporio's fate, which ended up killing himself.

Honestly, even if it was purely just time accel straight up, I'd say due to how it acts in function and in action, it's functionally enough to qualify because like, come the **** on.


That's a bit much to just go "eh doesnt count". Especially when Pucci can flip it on and off and do ad infinitum whenever he wants.

 

[KingTempest]

Yeah

Agreeing with Chariot

 

[UchihaSlayer96]

Yeah

Agreeing with Chariot

Same. Chariot is making the most sense to me rn.

 

[TheGunsFinalWrath]

I definitely agree with Chariot here. Makes the most sense here too.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I guess low 2-C environment destruction makes sense, but question, did pucci create a new universe with made in heaven or travel to a new one that already existed after resetting the old one?

 

[Kachon123]

Chariot always spitting facts.

 

[Chariot190]

I guess low 2-C environment destruction makes sense, but question, did pucci create a new universe with made in heaven or travel to a new one that already existed after resetting the old one?

I wouldn't call it "traveling" to a new one (The it does state that the old organisms from the old universe travel to the new one, Pucci himself is technically exempt from that). That universe didn't exist prior to MIH fiasco, it came into being after the fact, which is why it's stated, especially in the japanese scans, to have been a whole new universe and history like 4 times.

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I wouldn't call it "traveling" to a new one (The it does state that the old organisms from the old universe travel to the new one, Pucci himself is technically exempt from that). That universe didn't exist prior to MIH fiasco, it came into being after the fact, which is why it's stated, especially in the japanese scans, to have been a whole new universe and history like 4 times.

Wouldn't that be a low 2-C creation feat? It would also scale to environment destruction I think wouldn't it?

 

[MidnightDawn1]

Wait! So is JoJo actually getting Low-2C ap? Canonically?!?!

Pucci vs Son Goku When?

 

[Chariot190]

Wouldn't that be a low 2-C creation feat? It would also scale to environment destruction I think wouldn't it?

Partially, that part is vague, but we know it's a brand new universal time-space, not the old one, explicitly a brand new universe disconnected from the old one bar following a similar path of destiny.

Wait! So is JoJo actually getting Low-2C ap? Canonically?!?!

No, MIH's whole schtick is environmental only, cant be used to target a specific character, and it even goes as far to neatly relocate all living organisms into the new world safely and neatly. (Though organisms can die while it's happening due to jacked KE, like if a rock fell on you, you'd ******* die or something like that, or even a trip but that's just collateral and not how the ability works or functions by intent, just accidents basically).

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Wait! So is JoJo actually getting Low-2C ap? Canonically?!?!

Pucci vs Son Goku When?

Goku stomps, stop.

Partially, that part is vague, but we know it's a brand new universal time-space, not the old one, explicitly a brand new universe disconnected from the old one bar following a similar path of destiny.

No, MIH's whole schtick is environmental only, cant be used to target a specific character, and it even goes as far to neatly relocate all living organisms into the new world safely and neatly. (Though organisms can die while it's happening due to jacked KE, like if a rock fell on you, you'd ******* die or something like that, or even a trip but that's just collateral and not how the ability works or functions by intent, just accidents basically).

Alright I see, thanks. I agree with low 2-C environment destruction.

 

[MidnightDawn1]

Chariot always spitting facts.

out all the languages he could've chosen to speak he chose Facts.

 

[MidnightDawn1]

Goku stomps, stop

Damn sorry.

 

[Rikimarox2]

After reading the shitfest here, I agree with Chariot. He's making the most sense.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

After reading the shitfest here, I agree with Chariot. He's making the most sense.

this
don't mind me btw, just observing the thread

 

[LordGinSama]

I agree 100% with Chariot here.

 

[StekFence]

Same

 

[LeSupremeKing1]

It does because it's not a ******* reset, if it was a reset it'd be the same universe. Given the very point of this thread is to help clarify shit, you spreading some of that very same confusion does nothing but make things worse.

Blatant falsehood, ignorance even.
Ignoring the fact that continuous repetition of saying "lol it's time accel" is getting real ******* annoying from everyone in this thread, that's not even the whole of it.
Maybe using a scan explicitly talking about MIH's ability and insinuating that it's only talking about a natural occurrence and nothing else and acting that NOTHING there has anything to do with MIH's ability and actions itself isn't the smartest thing to use.



Besides the twisting of space-time, the universal gravity manip, the disproportionate KE and energy, the cutting off of fate, and so on and so forth.



Yeah, it doesn't, but it's still ED at the end of the day, which is the issue "i disagree with it being combat applicable so it shouldnt be listed even as ED". Is basically what I'm getting from you, the former doesn't beget the latter.

No but he can explicitly change the course of destiny with his actions, effect other's destiny's and so on and so forth. He is unaffected, he's the only person who is unless he takes action to change that. "being stuck in the loop of the universe reset", Im going to assume the scan you're talking about there and call you out on that being complete conjecture as to why he's immune given ******* EVERYONE is in the same boat as him. And again, it's not even a reset.



You do realize that isnt how this works? We list it in the AP section if it qualifies for environmental destruction, the only difference is that we list it AS environmental destruction. Hell we literally do it with his second key too with C-Moon, it's not combat applicable, it's not offensive, but is it a thing? Does it effect the environment? Is it something he causes under his control? Yes, it is, and as such, we list it, with the caveat it it's ED and not normal AP. hat's how that page and terminology works.
You have issue with ED as a whole it seems, take that elsewhere, because as long as it qualifies, it's going to be listed as such in his AP section because that's where ED goes.

So firstly I said it I don't care if its CONSIDERED a parallel universe or not because they still consider it a reset.

Im continuously repeating its time acceleration BECAUSE THATS WHAT HIS ABILITY IS STATED TO DO! AND THAT ITS NOT DOING ANYTHING ELSE OTHER THAN THAT. Obviously if his ability does one thing, and everything else is something that we know for a fact he is not doing and is not in control of, then obviously it would be either something that happens naturally, or done by a force EXTERNAL to him. Your assuming it does all these other things, which I'm explaining why HE IS NOT.

Yeah, it doesn't, but it's still ED at the end of the day, which is the issue "i disagree with it being combat applicable so it shouldnt be listed even as ED". Is basically what I'm getting from you, the former doesn't beget the latter.

Thats a blatant strawman and not what I was arguing for at all.

No but he can explicitly change the course of destiny with his actions, effect other's destiny's and so on and so forth. He is unaffected, he's the only person who is unless he takes action to change that. "being stuck in the loop of the universe reset", Im going to assume the scan you're talking about there and call you out on that being complete conjecture as to why he's immune given ******* EVERYONE is in the same boat as him. And again, it's not even a reset.

Irrelevant, my point was that Pucci/MIH wasn't involved in the creation of destiny, or the new universe, other than accelerating it. And for whatever reason, pucci is unaffected by fate.

You do realize that isnt how this works? We list it in the AP section if it qualifies for environmental destruction, the only difference is that we list it AS environmental destruction. Hell we literally do it with his second key too with C-Moon, it's not combat applicable, it's not offensive, but is it a thing? Does it effect the environment? Is it something he causes under his control? Yes, it is, and as such, we list it, with the caveat it it's ED and not normal AP. hat's how that page and terminology works.
You have issue with ED as a whole it seems, take that elsewhere, because as long as it qualifies, it's going to be listed as such in his AP section because that's where ED goes.

I obviously don't agree that ED shouldn't be included within the AP section since its inapplicable to combat, but if VSBW decides to do that, oh well idrc.

 

[azontr]

Dude it literally says MiH uses gravity to accelerate time wym lol.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

quick question
why would pucci have universal environmental destruction instead of just multi galaxy+

 

[Livinmeme]

doesn MIH uses gravity to accelerate time???

 

[RazumaHiroki]

"But the stairway to heaven's stand ability utilizes the gravitational power of earth and moon, basically the whole universe, to increase the speed of time."

(Yeah, that's clearly gravity. You should have done your research, supreme, instead of contradicting yourself there)

 

[azontr]

quick question
why would pucci have universal environmental destruction instead of just multi galaxy+

Because MiH literally ends the universe.

 

[ZillertheBucko]

Because MiH literally ends the universe.

like, the universe itself or
just everything in it
(just asking for clarification here)

 

[azontr]

like, the universe itself or
just everything in it
(just asking for clarification here)

I'm pretty sure using gravity to accelerate time to the point the universe itself just ******* implodes or whatever would be ending everything in it lol.