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The Legend of Zelda: Major Revision - Part II (Concluded, further discussion on 3-A in progress)
- Thread starter ZephyrosOmega
- Start date
- Status
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Aside from this vague statement that's most likely been taken out of context, when exactly has Zelda ever shown 3-A feats?
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Why do people keep derailing with 3-A shit that's already BEEN discussed in the LAST threadHellblade3067 said:
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1. Calm yourself.ZephyrosOmega said:
2. I just joined
3. The thread literally "The Legend of Zelda: Major Revision - Part II (3-A to Low 2-C)"
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"So as most of you know by now, The Legend of Zelda has been upgraded to 3-A due to the above thread and solid statements related to Majora. However, as was also discussed in that thread, Low 2-C was mentioned to be a possibility. As such, I thought I'd bring back up this statement, from the same guide:"
So you read the title but not what was under the title?
So you read the title but not what was under the title?
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Nope, but i'll just leave fn.GiverOfThePeace said:
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The statement states he's affecting even the universal space and time and it's the initial reasoning for 3-A Majora so Zephyr is saying a possible Low 2-C via this. That's the reasoning.
Wokistan
Bioluminescent African American Working At The CIA
VS Battles
Administrator
Calculation Group
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Anyway, about this...
I've asked him on discord about a completely separate revision and didn't get a response yet, even with him having responded to the same topic a little while before, so he's probably just gone for a while again.
I've asked him on discord about a completely separate revision and didn't get a response yet, even with him having responded to the same topic a little while before, so he's probably just gone for a while again.
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The scan says that it brought mischief to space-time and other things, which sounds incredibly poetic to me, and not to be taken seriously
The quote doesn't even say that, dude.
The quote doesn't even say that, dude.
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And I think it's best if we just keep the 3-A rating, without any upgrades.
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- Thread starter
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We still have support from Medeus and a group of other knowledgeable users. I'd prefer to wait for opinions from at least Cal or Azathoth.
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On second thought, it probably is safer to keep it at 3-A for now. Although Konaguna was being harsh, he did have a good point about the time and space statement.
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I feel like we should drop a link to the previous thread because people seem to forget how the upgrade happened despite a lot of knowledgeable members agreeing on this.
And please you should all stop derailing this thread do a CRT if you want to question the 3-A statement, if not then please all be patient until Azzy arrives (which I doubt since a lot of people from other debates as been trying to contact him he seem to be Mia) until all people that agrees with the upgrade should do more research to make the case more solid instead of sitting with their ass on their thumbs (didn't mean as an offense just wanted to use that expression) like when Azzy comes you would all have a solid case to go up against him.
And same thing for all that disagree if Azzy comes in to debunk low 2-C it will make is job easier if you all find proof why this can't be accepted we are a site where our primary function is to debate and to debate you need to build a case and find evidence/proof.
So let's get to it people, keep our tempers down and stop deraling and actually read what the OP wrote.
And please you should all stop derailing this thread do a CRT if you want to question the 3-A statement, if not then please all be patient until Azzy arrives (which I doubt since a lot of people from other debates as been trying to contact him he seem to be Mia) until all people that agrees with the upgrade should do more research to make the case more solid instead of sitting with their ass on their thumbs (didn't mean as an offense just wanted to use that expression) like when Azzy comes you would all have a solid case to go up against him.
And same thing for all that disagree if Azzy comes in to debunk low 2-C it will make is job easier if you all find proof why this can't be accepted we are a site where our primary function is to debate and to debate you need to build a case and find evidence/proof.
So let's get to it people, keep our tempers down and stop deraling and actually read what the OP wrote.
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What was the explicit reason in the previous thread that 3-A was decided on? I'm kinda unsure from Majora's page, and going by what's given, I'm assuming we're not using Majora creating Termina.
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Majora being capable of warping (not creating) all of Termina and his moon dimension being implied to be universal in size by the guide (described as a parallel reality).
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So this all comes from an English language guide, yes? I'm not trying to be sarcastic with this comment. I say this because, though it's been a little while since my last MM playthrough, none of this is remotely supported or suggested within the game.
The first statement says that everything within the parallel universe has been "tainted" by Majora's mask. First of all, the game never shows anything "tainted" beyond the part of the world the game takes place within and a small moon. Second, "tainted" does not mean Majora warped the entire universe with universal levels of reality warping. This is a very strange way to look at things when the entire game does not take place in some kind of hellscape (or unsettlingly serene environment), and we very much see what a world warped by Majora looks like during the final confrontation inside the moon. Third, we know the universe was not constantly being warped by Majora on any kind of significant level because unlike the moon, it does not immediately vanish/revert upon his defeat. This seems like it's just a very grandiose way of saying Majora's been spreading foul influence across Termina.
The second statement makes the claim that the mask's influence has spread over "the moon, the heavens, space, and time". None of this seems to prove some level of large scale universal reality warping. The first two are almost certainly related to Majora warping the moon and pulling it from the heavens (and summoning possible aliens that may or may not be aliens), while the latter two are so vague they could apply to many things. But I'd be far more willing to bet it's in regards to the fact a central point of the game is that you have to constantly turn back time in order to stop Majora from wiping out the world than it alludes to Majora warping a timeline (and that the giants seem to be locked somewhere outside time, assuming such a thing isn't a game mechanic), or something. This is incredibly flowery language that should not be used as one of the primary reasons for a massive upgrade.
The third statement calls Majora's moon world an "alternate reality", which is true, but says nothing about its size. Majora's moon world contains a planet(oid) and a sun, and he can warp it at will into different things. That's all we're sure about and that's as big as it's shown to get. Being an alternate reality does not suddenly make it universal in size.
Finally, unless what I wanted to verify in the first paragraph is incorrect, all of these come from a strategy guide. A guide not written by the game's creators or anyone related to it, but a strategy guide licensed by simply licensed by Nintendo. It is not related to the game's canon by any means and should not retroactively change things that are not supported in the game, even if the evidence were more clear. Statements such as Majora warping the entire universe would not even be accurate to the game's canon in the first place, as we flat out see things he is actively warping (i.e. the moon) disappear/revert upon his defeat, and most things remain entirely unchanged. I cannot understand upgrading a large chunk of a franchise several entire tiers based on something that was not said in any of the actual source material, but a guide to one of the games written by entirely different people. This does not seem like it was a sound upgrade, in the first place.
The first statement says that everything within the parallel universe has been "tainted" by Majora's mask. First of all, the game never shows anything "tainted" beyond the part of the world the game takes place within and a small moon. Second, "tainted" does not mean Majora warped the entire universe with universal levels of reality warping. This is a very strange way to look at things when the entire game does not take place in some kind of hellscape (or unsettlingly serene environment), and we very much see what a world warped by Majora looks like during the final confrontation inside the moon. Third, we know the universe was not constantly being warped by Majora on any kind of significant level because unlike the moon, it does not immediately vanish/revert upon his defeat. This seems like it's just a very grandiose way of saying Majora's been spreading foul influence across Termina.
The second statement makes the claim that the mask's influence has spread over "the moon, the heavens, space, and time". None of this seems to prove some level of large scale universal reality warping. The first two are almost certainly related to Majora warping the moon and pulling it from the heavens (and summoning possible aliens that may or may not be aliens), while the latter two are so vague they could apply to many things. But I'd be far more willing to bet it's in regards to the fact a central point of the game is that you have to constantly turn back time in order to stop Majora from wiping out the world than it alludes to Majora warping a timeline (and that the giants seem to be locked somewhere outside time, assuming such a thing isn't a game mechanic), or something. This is incredibly flowery language that should not be used as one of the primary reasons for a massive upgrade.
The third statement calls Majora's moon world an "alternate reality", which is true, but says nothing about its size. Majora's moon world contains a planet(oid) and a sun, and he can warp it at will into different things. That's all we're sure about and that's as big as it's shown to get. Being an alternate reality does not suddenly make it universal in size.
Finally, unless what I wanted to verify in the first paragraph is incorrect, all of these come from a strategy guide. A guide not written by the game's creators or anyone related to it, but a strategy guide licensed by simply licensed by Nintendo. It is not related to the game's canon by any means and should not retroactively change things that are not supported in the game, even if the evidence were more clear. Statements such as Majora warping the entire universe would not even be accurate to the game's canon in the first place, as we flat out see things he is actively warping (i.e. the moon) disappear/revert upon his defeat, and most things remain entirely unchanged. I cannot understand upgrading a large chunk of a franchise several entire tiers based on something that was not said in any of the actual source material, but a guide to one of the games written by entirely different people. This does not seem like it was a sound upgrade, in the first place.
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Actually Azzy During Majora's Mask, it is established multiple times that the Skull Kid's reality warping powers and corruption abilities were affecting the world of Termina, including the celestial bodies. However, the official guidebook for Majora's Mask, which received a Nintendo Seal of Reliability, states the following in a section talking about the Deku Temple's water:
"The water was once pure, but like everything else in the parallel universe, it has been tainted by the cruel intentions of the Skull Kid wearing Majora's mask."
This statement clarifies that the Skull Kid's distortions were universal in scale, corrupting the entirety of the universe of Termina. This could be potentially a little insufficient on its own, indeed, but there is a similar quote that further supports it in the lore entry in the prologue for the same guide:
Everyone's personal life has taken a turn for the worse, and it is all because of the mischief spread by the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask and the influence his cursed guise has on the moon, the heavens, space and time
This section clarifies that the accursed powers he possesses are distorting more than just the moon - they are distorting the heavens, space, and time (the latter to an unknown extent) as well. As I hope everyone here realizes, the expression "heavens" in literary-mythological context is synonymous to "cosmos", as it is supposed to express the portion of the universe that is outside the Earth.
From the thread that brought the upgrade also if any of you plan to downgrade the 3-A feat for whatever reason you think of i think it's fair tk warn ParadoxIndifferent and let him defend the upgrade he brought on.
Also don't see=/=It doesn't happen. If we have statements that Majora warped more than the 4 regions, we assume it actually did.
"The water was once pure, but like everything else in the parallel universe, it has been tainted by the cruel intentions of the Skull Kid wearing Majora's mask."
This statement clarifies that the Skull Kid's distortions were universal in scale, corrupting the entirety of the universe of Termina. This could be potentially a little insufficient on its own, indeed, but there is a similar quote that further supports it in the lore entry in the prologue for the same guide:
Everyone's personal life has taken a turn for the worse, and it is all because of the mischief spread by the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask and the influence his cursed guise has on the moon, the heavens, space and time
This section clarifies that the accursed powers he possesses are distorting more than just the moon - they are distorting the heavens, space, and time (the latter to an unknown extent) as well. As I hope everyone here realizes, the expression "heavens" in literary-mythological context is synonymous to "cosmos", as it is supposed to express the portion of the universe that is outside the Earth.
From the thread that brought the upgrade also if any of you plan to downgrade the 3-A feat for whatever reason you think of i think it's fair tk warn ParadoxIndifferent and let him defend the upgrade he brought on.
Also don't see=/=It doesn't happen. If we have statements that Majora warped more than the 4 regions, we assume it actually did.
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I think Azathoth makes sense now, I always felt like the details were missing something.
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One thing I will say right off the bat; I completely and utterly disagree with what you said about the alternate reality statement.
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The only downgrade I agree with is revising the way the feat is scaled in the profiles currently.
Considering Majora's status, it is very much arguable that Link beating him with the Mask at all is an outlier. Heck, Majora gave Link that mask.
We could limit the 3-A scaling to Triforce! Ganon, the Triforce, and Link when he is in possession of the Triforce, and everytihing would work out just as well.
Considering Majora's status, it is very much arguable that Link beating him with the Mask at all is an outlier. Heck, Majora gave Link that mask.
We could limit the 3-A scaling to Triforce! Ganon, the Triforce, and Link when he is in possession of the Triforce, and everytihing would work out just as well.
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Fierce Deity Link would have to scale if he's clearly the one destined to slay Majora with it. Majora giving him the mask can be interpreted as PIS or CIS, but the mask having the power to slay Majora is too canon to just be ignored.
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Way too Canon and after that mask was specifically designed by Majora to give Link the chance of beating him so as far I can tell the ratings should stay also the things I posted was from an official Nintendo powered manual with the official seal stating to Canon also the Manuel unlike the other ones does not contradict at all any of of the pre established lore of the MM event.
And actually supports strongly the 3-A statement by calling it literally a parallel reality as far as I can see this is good enough to keep the 3-A but I guess this isn't enough for Low 2-C.
And actually supports strongly the 3-A statement by calling it literally a parallel reality as far as I can see this is good enough to keep the 3-A but I guess this isn't enough for Low 2-C.
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Kepekley and Ashen make a lot of sense.
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cracks knuckles
> So this all comes from an English language guide, yes? I'm not trying to be sarcastic with this comment. I say this because, though it's been a little while since my last MM playthrough, none of this is remotely supported or suggested within the game.
None of this information could conceivably come from any character in the game without being extremely out of place and discarded by our standards. The whole plot revolves around the unaware citizens of Termina, Majora, and Link. It'd be extremely strange for random citizens to somehow know Majora is a universe-warper. Majora itself is mute and has zero lines in the whole game - Skull Kid not counting.
I mentioned this to several staff members in private a while back. I absolutely despise how we instantaneously treat in-game information as absolute and ignore the context whenever we stack it against guidebook information. It's obvious and pure common sense that a random NPC saying something they have absolutely no means of knowing would be overriden by a canon guide, an omniscient source of information which is only to be discarded when conflicting with characters that can be assumed to be perfectly knowledgeable concerning what they're talking about, or the narrator in the storyline.
> First of all, the game never shows anything "tainted" beyond the part of the world the game takes place within and a small moo
I have already argued against similar arguments with other verses so many times it isn't funny at this point, and I shall do so once again; it is completely irrelevant if, visually, a planet-bound game does not "show" anything being warped on-screen beyond the planetary surface. I have no idea why this is ever used as an argument. Were you expecting the game to randomly zoom into the stars and show them being distorted? This is an extremely unreasonable way of approaching a verse. If a canonical source reveals the true scale behind what is taking place in the lore of the game, then it can be used. It'd be something else if it were explicitly shown that only Termina was being affected and that the rest of the universe was explicitly fine, but it is not.
Going by the same logic, even an actual statement from the game would be unusable. If a character said the universe was warped, it wouldn't be matter because the extremely limited eyes of the audience are incapable of discerning whether the stars are being warped or not, hence it obviously "only shows planetary scale".
Bad logic is bad.
> Second, "tainted" does not mean Majora warped the entire universe with universal levels of reality warping."
Absolutely no universal distortion feat in fiction directly suggests that a character has "warped the entire universe with universal levels of reality warping", as redundant as that sounds. That's just something we assume by default because we consider universal reality warping as 3-A in terms of power. Directly assigning an energy value is impossible. Given the context behind the statement, it certainly sounds like it fits within what we consider "significant" distortion, hence, 3-A.
> and we very much see what a world warped by Majora looks like during the final confrontation inside the moo
...No, we don't. There is a rather large difference between him creating a world and him warping it.
> Third, we know the universe was not constantly being warped by Majora on any kind of significant level because unlike the moon, it does not immediately vanish/revert upon his defeat
This is headcanon. If one assumes the moon reverted to its original state upon his death, absolutely nothing prevents the wider universe from having gone through the same thing.
> The second statement makes the claim that the mask's influence has spread over "the moon, the heavens, space, and time". None of this seems to prove some level of large scale universal reality warping
On its own? Likely not.
When used together with the other statement? It heavily, heavily supports it.
> The first two are almost certainly related to Majora warping the moon and pulling it from the heavens (and summoning possible aliens that may or may not be aliens)
Except "moon and heavens" are separate in the statement, so it's very unlikely that's what it meant. "Heavens" is synonymous with "universe" (when used in an "outside the Earth" context), therefore Occam's Razor dictates that meaning is the one that should be used. Especially when you read the full statement.
> But I'd be far more willing to bet it's in regards to the fact a central point of the game is that you have to constantly turn back time in order to stop Majora from wiping out the world
Except the statement clearly refers to an action performed by Majora itself, not by others.
> This is incredibly flowery language that should not be used as one of the primary reasons for a massive upgrade.
Again; on its own, it is relatively vague. When used in conjunction with everything else, it heavily supports the rating.
> The third statement calls Majora's moon world an "alternate reality", which is true, but says nothing about its size. Majora's moon world contains a planet(oid) and a sun, and he can warp it at will into different things. That's all we're sure about and that's as big as it's shown to get. Being an alternate reality does not suddenly make it universal in size.
I heavily disagree with this. "Alternative reality" is synonymous to "parallel universe". It is used to denote a world that is extremely similar to our own, co-existing with it in all but the flow of time/events that took place.
If you wish to find an "alternate word" to describe something, you're finding a word that is identical in meaning, but different in spelling. This is no different.
> So this all comes from an English language guide, yes? I'm not trying to be sarcastic with this comment. I say this because, though it's been a little while since my last MM playthrough, none of this is remotely supported or suggested within the game.
None of this information could conceivably come from any character in the game without being extremely out of place and discarded by our standards. The whole plot revolves around the unaware citizens of Termina, Majora, and Link. It'd be extremely strange for random citizens to somehow know Majora is a universe-warper. Majora itself is mute and has zero lines in the whole game - Skull Kid not counting.
I mentioned this to several staff members in private a while back. I absolutely despise how we instantaneously treat in-game information as absolute and ignore the context whenever we stack it against guidebook information. It's obvious and pure common sense that a random NPC saying something they have absolutely no means of knowing would be overriden by a canon guide, an omniscient source of information which is only to be discarded when conflicting with characters that can be assumed to be perfectly knowledgeable concerning what they're talking about, or the narrator in the storyline.
> First of all, the game never shows anything "tainted" beyond the part of the world the game takes place within and a small moo
I have already argued against similar arguments with other verses so many times it isn't funny at this point, and I shall do so once again; it is completely irrelevant if, visually, a planet-bound game does not "show" anything being warped on-screen beyond the planetary surface. I have no idea why this is ever used as an argument. Were you expecting the game to randomly zoom into the stars and show them being distorted? This is an extremely unreasonable way of approaching a verse. If a canonical source reveals the true scale behind what is taking place in the lore of the game, then it can be used. It'd be something else if it were explicitly shown that only Termina was being affected and that the rest of the universe was explicitly fine, but it is not.
Going by the same logic, even an actual statement from the game would be unusable. If a character said the universe was warped, it wouldn't be matter because the extremely limited eyes of the audience are incapable of discerning whether the stars are being warped or not, hence it obviously "only shows planetary scale".
Bad logic is bad.
> Second, "tainted" does not mean Majora warped the entire universe with universal levels of reality warping."
Absolutely no universal distortion feat in fiction directly suggests that a character has "warped the entire universe with universal levels of reality warping", as redundant as that sounds. That's just something we assume by default because we consider universal reality warping as 3-A in terms of power. Directly assigning an energy value is impossible. Given the context behind the statement, it certainly sounds like it fits within what we consider "significant" distortion, hence, 3-A.
> and we very much see what a world warped by Majora looks like during the final confrontation inside the moo
...No, we don't. There is a rather large difference between him creating a world and him warping it.
> Third, we know the universe was not constantly being warped by Majora on any kind of significant level because unlike the moon, it does not immediately vanish/revert upon his defeat
This is headcanon. If one assumes the moon reverted to its original state upon his death, absolutely nothing prevents the wider universe from having gone through the same thing.
> The second statement makes the claim that the mask's influence has spread over "the moon, the heavens, space, and time". None of this seems to prove some level of large scale universal reality warping
On its own? Likely not.
When used together with the other statement? It heavily, heavily supports it.
> The first two are almost certainly related to Majora warping the moon and pulling it from the heavens (and summoning possible aliens that may or may not be aliens)
Except "moon and heavens" are separate in the statement, so it's very unlikely that's what it meant. "Heavens" is synonymous with "universe" (when used in an "outside the Earth" context), therefore Occam's Razor dictates that meaning is the one that should be used. Especially when you read the full statement.
> But I'd be far more willing to bet it's in regards to the fact a central point of the game is that you have to constantly turn back time in order to stop Majora from wiping out the world
Except the statement clearly refers to an action performed by Majora itself, not by others.
> This is incredibly flowery language that should not be used as one of the primary reasons for a massive upgrade.
Again; on its own, it is relatively vague. When used in conjunction with everything else, it heavily supports the rating.
> The third statement calls Majora's moon world an "alternate reality", which is true, but says nothing about its size. Majora's moon world contains a planet(oid) and a sun, and he can warp it at will into different things. That's all we're sure about and that's as big as it's shown to get. Being an alternate reality does not suddenly make it universal in size.
I heavily disagree with this. "Alternative reality" is synonymous to "parallel universe". It is used to denote a world that is extremely similar to our own, co-existing with it in all but the flow of time/events that took place.
If you wish to find an "alternate word" to describe something, you're finding a word that is identical in meaning, but different in spelling. This is no different.
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Anyhoo, off to blissful Dream Land I go for now, lads.
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Just want to say thank you Kep and I totally agree with you happy I was able to bring this to people's attention.
Off to go to sleep it's currently 1:54 am in Montral QC need sleep lol
Off to go to sleep it's currently 1:54 am in Montral QC need sleep lol
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I just need to know if the guidebook came from a second party or Nintendo themselves, personally that'll be a pretty big influence on its legitimacy.
Though, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't there a lot of debate and contradictions on the nature of Termina anyways?
Though, correct me if I'm wrong, isn't there a lot of debate and contradictions on the nature of Termina anyways?
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Yeah, there are a lot of inconsistencies. And the one made by Dark Horse was considered unreliable, that much I know. But there was mention of another one that was published by Nintendo, but not sure where it says it was made by Nintendo or that they consider it canon.
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In the process of writing my comment, but if it's the Prima guidebook or one of the similar titles, entirely second party. Primarily English-speaking writers who do this for many games across many companies. It is not "written by Nintendo" or something.SomebodyData said:
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Zoned out while writing, so I want to post this, instead. Because I want to be as objective as possible, I'd to clear some things up. My issues have changed a bit since I started writing, so this is likely the more important thing to post.
After digging up the specific guide for myself to verify, this is the Nintendo Power player's guide, which is leagues better than Prima, in all honesty. At least the ties to Nintendo are much closer. That assuages my worry about this being entirely unrelated, so please disregard that.
However, checking the writers of the guide, these were (at the time, for one of them) still just "strategy guide people". This is not WoG lore or confirmation for TLoZ, but is official because it is distributed by Nintendo and made by people who wrote for a Nintendo-themed magazine.
I could confirm one of the writers as someone who worked for Nintendo of America on actual games doing translations, but that was in 2004, which was several years after he wrote this guide.
My issues still revolve primarily around these things. While the product is an official Nintendo product, it is not written or created in any capacity by people who worked on the game itself. At least one of the writers worked for Nintendo of America to localize games, but that was years after this guide was produced, and said games also don't seem to have included any TLoZ titles (for what that's worth, I don't really know if that part matters. Just figured I'd mention it). At least two of the writers for this guide worked on other guides for other Nintendo properties (Mario, Pokemon, etc.), making it clear that they were, as I previously mentioned, the "strategy guide people".
The guide is official in that it is licensed by Nintendo and written by writers for Nintendo Power, which was published by Nintendo of America (for most of its run). It is not made or written by people who worked on games (at the time), nor was it written by anyone involved in the creation of Majora's Mask.
My biggest problem is still using information from a guide to upgrade a verse 5+ tiers on the grounds that, because the product is officially licensed, the information within is canon to the game, despite the fact that the reason the product is official is because it is written by people who work for a magazine that is published by Nintendo of America and is an officially licensed product, which is very different from being canon to a game none of these people worked on or oversaw which was created in a different language. I am having an extremely hard time getting behind using sometimes unsupported statements created by Nintendo Power writers as a reason to not only retroactively power up a game they had no part in, but other parts of the verse, as well.
EDIT: I should also probably clarify that, while that is my biggest problem, it doesn't mean I'm any more fine with the statements currently being used to back up Majora's tier. For example, the quote about Majora's influence on the moon, heavens, space, and time being used to help justify him warping the universe is still flat out wrong, as time is his weakness in the game itself and the only way Link actually survives long enough to stop him. Even the guide itself makes repeated mention of time being on your side, as well as your key to victory. Another would be using the "alternate reality" statement to assume intent and determine universal size, when the writers use the term "parallel world" to describe Clock Town specifically on two separate occasions.
After digging up the specific guide for myself to verify, this is the Nintendo Power player's guide, which is leagues better than Prima, in all honesty. At least the ties to Nintendo are much closer. That assuages my worry about this being entirely unrelated, so please disregard that.
However, checking the writers of the guide, these were (at the time, for one of them) still just "strategy guide people". This is not WoG lore or confirmation for TLoZ, but is official because it is distributed by Nintendo and made by people who wrote for a Nintendo-themed magazine.
I could confirm one of the writers as someone who worked for Nintendo of America on actual games doing translations, but that was in 2004, which was several years after he wrote this guide.
My issues still revolve primarily around these things. While the product is an official Nintendo product, it is not written or created in any capacity by people who worked on the game itself. At least one of the writers worked for Nintendo of America to localize games, but that was years after this guide was produced, and said games also don't seem to have included any TLoZ titles (for what that's worth, I don't really know if that part matters. Just figured I'd mention it). At least two of the writers for this guide worked on other guides for other Nintendo properties (Mario, Pokemon, etc.), making it clear that they were, as I previously mentioned, the "strategy guide people".
The guide is official in that it is licensed by Nintendo and written by writers for Nintendo Power, which was published by Nintendo of America (for most of its run). It is not made or written by people who worked on games (at the time), nor was it written by anyone involved in the creation of Majora's Mask.
My biggest problem is still using information from a guide to upgrade a verse 5+ tiers on the grounds that, because the product is officially licensed, the information within is canon to the game, despite the fact that the reason the product is official is because it is written by people who work for a magazine that is published by Nintendo of America and is an officially licensed product, which is very different from being canon to a game none of these people worked on or oversaw which was created in a different language. I am having an extremely hard time getting behind using sometimes unsupported statements created by Nintendo Power writers as a reason to not only retroactively power up a game they had no part in, but other parts of the verse, as well.
EDIT: I should also probably clarify that, while that is my biggest problem, it doesn't mean I'm any more fine with the statements currently being used to back up Majora's tier. For example, the quote about Majora's influence on the moon, heavens, space, and time being used to help justify him warping the universe is still flat out wrong, as time is his weakness in the game itself and the only way Link actually survives long enough to stop him. Even the guide itself makes repeated mention of time being on your side, as well as your key to victory. Another would be using the "alternate reality" statement to assume intent and determine universal size, when the writers use the term "parallel world" to describe Clock Town specifically on two separate occasions.
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The guide is licensed by Nintendo and received a reliability seal, aside from it having been published in Nintendo Power. In my view, very much counts as Word of God unless it is contradicted.
The guide here is merely clarifying lore points in the game. It doesn't contradict anything. The only thing I believe to be debatable here is whether or not those feats are outliers for the verse; which I honestly don't believe them to be (though I still disagree with our opportunistic "scale literally every Link" scaling chain in the profiles)
> For example, the quote about Majora's influence on the moon, heavens, space, and time being used to help justify him warping the universe is still flat out wrong, as time is his weakness in the game itself and the only way Link actually survives long enough to stop him.
So Majora being vulnerable to time-based ablities somehow means his powers are not capable of influencing time, even to a limited extent (I do not agree with Low 2-C), and somehow debunks them being capable of warping the universe? What? This makes absolutely no sense.
> Another would be using the "alternate reality" statement to assume intent and determine universal size, when the writers use the term "parallel world" to describe Clock Town specifically on two separate occasions.
...So what? This is no different than the writers using "Hyrule" to refer to the planet, even though the planet is called Earth. It's just identification. This is both out of context and irrelevant to the scenario we're debating.
The term "alternate reality" denotes a reality the same size and identical to our own in structure, as I elaborated on. It's essentially identical to the term "parallel universe".
The exact same logic you're using would imply that parallel dimensions in fiction being called "universes" doesn't imply they're universe-sized, because the term universe doesn't necessarily refer to one the exact same size as our own. Keep using that logic and, soon, our standards will require that the dimension in question is outright stated to be 100 billion light years in diameter in order for it to qualify.
The guide here is merely clarifying lore points in the game. It doesn't contradict anything. The only thing I believe to be debatable here is whether or not those feats are outliers for the verse; which I honestly don't believe them to be (though I still disagree with our opportunistic "scale literally every Link" scaling chain in the profiles)
> For example, the quote about Majora's influence on the moon, heavens, space, and time being used to help justify him warping the universe is still flat out wrong, as time is his weakness in the game itself and the only way Link actually survives long enough to stop him.
So Majora being vulnerable to time-based ablities somehow means his powers are not capable of influencing time, even to a limited extent (I do not agree with Low 2-C), and somehow debunks them being capable of warping the universe? What? This makes absolutely no sense.
> Another would be using the "alternate reality" statement to assume intent and determine universal size, when the writers use the term "parallel world" to describe Clock Town specifically on two separate occasions.
...So what? This is no different than the writers using "Hyrule" to refer to the planet, even though the planet is called Earth. It's just identification. This is both out of context and irrelevant to the scenario we're debating.
The term "alternate reality" denotes a reality the same size and identical to our own in structure, as I elaborated on. It's essentially identical to the term "parallel universe".
The exact same logic you're using would imply that parallel dimensions in fiction being called "universes" doesn't imply they're universe-sized, because the term universe doesn't necessarily refer to one the exact same size as our own. Keep using that logic and, soon, our standards will require that the dimension in question is outright stated to be 100 billion light years in diameter in order for it to qualify.
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No, unless one chooses to use the non-canon Hyrule Encyclopedia, which, as I just said...isn't canon.SomebodyData said:
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Also they didn't use the word alternate reality but straight parallel '''''UNIVERSE'''''
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He is talking about Majora's dimension.
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As the one who made that thread to begin with, I wholeheartedly agree with Kep here.
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The official seal is your assurance that this product is licensed or manufactured by Nintendo. Always look for this seal when buying video game systems, accessories, games, and related products.
Not even the HE have the seal despite some of the people involved with the Loz serie were involved in the creation of the HE, the power guide came out of an Era where this seal was incredibly important if you didn't have that seal then it meant everything inside it was considered unreliable by Nintendo themselves hell they wouldn't had it even published it, if the seal wasn't slapped on it so as far as I am concerned this guide is Canon and unless the word of God says otherwise it stays that way.
And unlike the HE the power guide is clear and supports all evidence of the feats we talk about with no flowery language unless you single out words to take them out of context.
Most importantly they interviewed Eiji Aonuma regularly every time a new Legend of Zelda game appeared in order to create a guide for said games and as far as I know all info that came from the guide comes from the Dev team which makes it Canon enough since that was literally the only source of lore information we could get until the guides cease to exist after 2012 when Skyward Sword sword arrive, Since Nintendo had no way to relay info they decided to create a time-line and lore book themselves since there main crew that used to do it (Nintendo Power) didn't publish things anymore.
All the way back to 1988 and the first issue the main company of Nintendo (Japan) plus Nintendo of America gave them the seal of approval by saying that they are a legitimate business that they themselves approve especially there contents of guides because before publishing it needs to be proof read by the team in question that was involved with whatever the guide game is based on.
Not even their successor (Nintendo Force) could get a seal of approval since after 2012 Nintendo started publishing their own lore books, because their main source of information from developers to players (in a forme of a guide) was gone.
So yes the Nintendo Power guide are extremely Canon.
Not even the HE have the seal despite some of the people involved with the Loz serie were involved in the creation of the HE, the power guide came out of an Era where this seal was incredibly important if you didn't have that seal then it meant everything inside it was considered unreliable by Nintendo themselves hell they wouldn't had it even published it, if the seal wasn't slapped on it so as far as I am concerned this guide is Canon and unless the word of God says otherwise it stays that way.
And unlike the HE the power guide is clear and supports all evidence of the feats we talk about with no flowery language unless you single out words to take them out of context.
Most importantly they interviewed Eiji Aonuma regularly every time a new Legend of Zelda game appeared in order to create a guide for said games and as far as I know all info that came from the guide comes from the Dev team which makes it Canon enough since that was literally the only source of lore information we could get until the guides cease to exist after 2012 when Skyward Sword sword arrive, Since Nintendo had no way to relay info they decided to create a time-line and lore book themselves since there main crew that used to do it (Nintendo Power) didn't publish things anymore.
All the way back to 1988 and the first issue the main company of Nintendo (Japan) plus Nintendo of America gave them the seal of approval by saying that they are a legitimate business that they themselves approve especially there contents of guides because before publishing it needs to be proof read by the team in question that was involved with whatever the guide game is based on.
Not even their successor (Nintendo Force) could get a seal of approval since after 2012 Nintendo started publishing their own lore books, because their main source of information from developers to players (in a forme of a guide) was gone.
So yes the Nintendo Power guide are extremely Canon.
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