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Agreed
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The Legend of Zelda: Major Revision - Part II (Concluded, further discussion on 3-A in progress)
- Thread starter ZephyrosOmega
- Start date
- Status
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There is no evidence his alternate reality feat is Low 2-C, just 3-A.
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Low 2-C has been rejected, yes.
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I've been gone for like a day. I can't really write more than a handful of larger comments a day, now. If you still want my input, I'll reply when I'm back home and not on a phone.Antvasima said:
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RIP my hopes for Ren VS. Link
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Just to note, I will likely be outside of WI-FI/Internet range for 3 days or so starting from tomorrow, since I will go on a trip with the rest of the family.
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I understand this isn't directed at me, but I just feel like I should let you know that I was the one who brought up Majora's moon realm having a sun and being High 4-C, in the first place. He was only 5-B back when I did this. Which, by the way, is another rating that I repeatedly vouched for (for his Skull Kid state) due to the fact that the bad ending flat out says the world and all its inhabitants are destroyed, thus such a thing should be obvious/has no need to be lowballed at High 6-A. If I deem something too vague, it is not just for the reason of "this probably isn't legit/I don't believe it" and nothing else, but based on what I know about/remember from the game itself, as well as other outside factors. If I believe Occam's razor actually applies to something, I'm not going to ignore it for no reason, and I don't believe it applies here in the way people are implying. I do not wish to give the impression I (or anyone who may agree with me) are arguing from the perspective of "lol no" or bad faith, but, at least for me, I am doing so because I actually believe the current interpretation is incorrect.ZephyrosOmega said:
Anyway, I hope to be home soon, and will post a longer reply then, because even posting this on my phone was a colossal pain in the ass.
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If there's one thing I can say about Azzy, he's contributed a ton to Majora's Mask.
...i'll shut up now.
...i'll shut up now.
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As I said, I certainly don't place any blame on you.Azathoth the Abyssal Idiot said:
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Completely understood. Just wanted to clarify that, while Majora's Mask is one of my favorite games and this thread involves one of my favorite antagonists, I do not wish to seem like I am biased for or against any particular result, nor like my arguments are in bad faith.
Though I also completely understand that with many franchises, the argument of "I just don't believe this so it isn't correct" can come up, which is...grating.
Though I also completely understand that with many franchises, the argument of "I just don't believe this so it isn't correct" can come up, which is...grating.
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Yeah, Azathoth is awesome. And he's also legit the one who's often helped out with getting Zelda upgraded higher than 5-B. He legit considers Complete Triforce High 4-C, just not highballing the inverse square law calc to 4-B. And the Majora's Mask upgrades for certain are legit.
Also @Kepekley, I do hope you enjoy your trip.
Also @Kepekley, I do hope you enjoy your trip.
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Okay, so I'm going to try my best to organize this comment into sections so that I can properly express my ideas.
Canon and Word of God
I feel like this is the most important thing to address, at least from my perspective, and that the other things are more secondary. So I'll go over this, first.
People seem to be treating this strategy guide as canon due to it being made by Nintendo/licensed by Nintendo, but this is a gross oversimplification. In regards to being "made by Nintendo", as I mentioned before, this isn't entirely the truth. The guide is marketed as "The ONLY guide from Nintendo" on its cover. This is because, much like Nintendo power, it is published by Nintendo of America. Published, not created by. Nintendo Power is not Nintendo/Nintendo of America, and this should be evident from the fact that one of this guide's writers left Nintendo Power to work at Nintendo of America (four years after this guide's publication), alongside the fact that Nintendo of America was not Nintendo Power's sole publisher throughout its run (it went independent at one point, and was then published by Future US until the end of its run, I believe).
The guide was written by Nintendo Power writers, and is effectively a Nintendo power guide, which was then published by Nintendo of America, like the magazine itself. The guide itself even boasts "...it's the only guide for Majora's Mask that was written by the insiders at Nintendo Power." Nintendo Power writers, not any members of the Majora's Mask team/helped make the game, or higher ups at Nintendo. This information is, by the common definition we ascribe it, not Word of God. This is not information by "Nintendo itself" made to clarify the events of Majora's Mask. It is information from American writers of Nintendo Power, a magazine was at the time published by Nintendo of America. I'm sorry, but this is far too distant from the source material to be considered something that is the official meaning of the game that nobody at Nintendo ever told us, and considering we already often apply a degree of skepticism to statements directly from an author should the source not entirely support them, I can't fathom how this is deemed perfectly acceptable. It is the interpretation of people working for a Nintendo-themed magazine that they published.
If it's deemed more reliable due to being licensed by Nintendo, so are most Nintendo products. The Prima version of this guide was written by people who had nothing to do with Nintendo whatsoever, and is still an "Official Nintendo Licensed Product". It just means Nintendo has approved and licensed the product. It has nothing to do with canon, and does not mean the product was directly created by Nintendo.
With that out of the way, assuming people for some reason still deem this a reliable source of information able to drastically change the scale of the game, I'll cover what we currently use to support Majora's 3-A tier.
Warping a Universe
The first sentence of Majora's justification reads "Said to have warped all of Termina, a parallel universe, to the point where the heavens, space, and time were corrupted." This is a bit misleading, as these are two entirely separate quotes from separate sections of the book that don't exactly go together, so I'll cover them individually. We'll look at the Woodfall statement, first.
This statement reads, "The water was once pure, but, like everything else in the parallel universe, it has become tainted by the cruel intentions of the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask." This statement is used to imply that Majora warped the entire universe on some kind of notable scale. However, nothing actually suggests this, in the guide or in the game. Even ignoring the game for a second, let's look at the guide. The exact wording is that everything has "become tainted by the cruel intentions of the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask". Tainted by cruel intentions. Just as the water has gone from pure to poison, the world is becoming contaminated. People's lives get worse, things look hopeless, the Skull Kid ruins lives wherever he goes due to his "cruel intentions". Not only does this fit with the way the statement is worded, but it's also supported in the game.
The idea that Skull Kid actively warped everything in the entire universe, or even on the entire world, is not supported by what we see in the game. If we honestly want to argue Occam's razor, please show me why something that blatantly doesn't occur in the game (everything in Termina being warped) requires less assumptions than a less literal version of the statement that actually aligns with the narrative. The amount of assumptions one must make to justify Majora warping the entire universe is immense.
Corrupting the Heavens, Space, and Time
The next statement has the problem of being even less literal. The exact words are "Everyone's personal life has taken a turn for the worst, and it's all because of the mischief spread by the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask and the influence his cursed guise has on the moon, the heavens, space and time."
The current interpretation of said statement is that Skull Kid "corrupted" the heavens, space, and time, and that this somehow ties into him being a universe warper. This is based on nothing. As you can see for yourselves, the statement just says that the mask has some sort of influence over the heavens, space, and time. It does not say what this influence is, or its extent. It just says it's there. This is very flowery language that does not make a good basis for a tier, because it doesn't actually tell us what we need to know.
If this is used because Majora having some kind of influence over these things means he actively controls/warps them on a major level, this is blatantly false. Anyone who has played Majora's Mask can tell you that the central conflict of the game is able to occur because Majora cannot counter Link turning back time. He demonstrates no time based powers whatsoever, nor any defenses to it. This is what allows Link to save the giants and not be wiped out along with the rest of Termina at the end of the first three day cycle. Majora has no link to time, so using this as further justification for universal reality warping/control over the universe would be sketchy at the best of times.
Also, to respond to Kep, who said, "So Majora being vulnerable to time-based ablities somehow means his powers are not capable of influencing time, even to a limited extent"; basically, yes. If he shows no control over time in the game, has no time based powers, and time itself is used as the primary weapon against him within the story, Majora first must show in any sort of capacity that he has the ability to actively or passively influence time in any meaningful way. If he actually can, and this influence does what essentially amounts to nothing and changes nothing whatsoever, this should not be further used to try and justify universal reality warping, as we have no idea what his influence over the heavens and space is, or how potent it is.
Alternate Reality
The final piece of evidence used for Majora's tier is that his moon dimension is referred to as an "alternate reality", which means the same thing as "parallel universe", and therefore Majora's dimension is universal in size.
On its own, something being described as an alternate reality or some variation of such has never been enough to suggest actual universal size, on our site. This is because the terminology is so vague and can mean anything the author wants it to, and does not have to denote universal size. If we're judging it as universal because wikipedia says this, "there is sometimes an additional connotation implied with the term "alternate universe/reality" that implies that the reality is a variant of our own, with some overlap with the similarly-named alternate history", then I would like to further point out that Majora's realm does not fit the definition of alternate reality, as we know it. That would more closely apply to Termina, which is an alternate reality to Hyrule. A similar world with a different course of history, and similar characters playing different roles. Majora's world is, as described in the guide, "Hazy and surreal like a dream, the world that they've entered is a vast and eerie playground for masked children." Said world is then warped into four separate dungeons, and finally into Majora's boss chamber. This is nothing like a traditional alternate history. Again, we've always required actual evidence as opposed to simply assuming universal size when it comes to artifical/pocket realms created by characters. This should be no different.
Also, in response to Kep, who said, "...So what? This is no different than the writers using "Hyrule" to refer to the planet, even though the planet is called Earth. It's just identification. This is both out of context and irrelevant to the scenario we're debating."
Kep, I don't get where you're coming from, here.
You claim calling Clock Town a "parallel world" to Hyrule is just identification, and that it doesn't matter/is out of context. Clock Town is repeatedly called both a world and parallel world because it's just a simple way to describe it. That's my point. It is just a simple way to identify it. The writers are not suggesting that Clock Town is a planet or universe, nor that it's the entirety of this actual parallel world. We obviously know it isn't. Calling Majora's world an alternate reality is just another form of identification. It is not meant to suggest the actual alternate reality/universe as listed on wikipedia, where it follows an alternate history of the world we know. If Majora's world was in any way like Termina or Hyrule, I would completely understand where you're coming from, but it isn't. Hell, even if they just flat out used the term "alternate universe" I'd be more comfortable with this, as the intention would be clear. But I can't accept the phrase "alternate reality" as proof of universal size for something that we have only seen as containing a field and a sun (before any of Majora's alterations). We don't do this for any other franchise, especially not when it's an artificial realm created by a character without any further explanation as to what it is.
Outlier
This last one didn't really pop into my head, but I figured I'd address it because Kep mentioned it.
"And just to set things straight, none of what I said above means that outliers aren't a thing. Statements that are irreconciliably beyond a verse's tier would be rejected under the "Outlier" basis, still."
I am curious as to why you think this wouldn't apply, then. Going by what you said, this could very easily fall under "Outlier", even if all of this was considered 100% canon.
This is a 3-A feat coming from a verse where, aside from the literal gods who created the world, the highest feats are High 4-C. Of those, there are three. One for Majora, one for the strongest incarnation of the main villai (except for when his weaker version is holding the next thing on the list), and one for something considered the most powerful artifact in the verse. Remove Majora and there are two. From my understanding, this is being scaled to the Fierce Deity (obviously), as well as the Triforce, which by extension means it's scaled to Ganondorf at his peak, Demise, Skyward Sword Link, ALTTP Link, AoL Link, ALBW Link, the Master Sword, Four Swords Link(s), and Cia. Might be more I forgot.
Because all of these characters are now so far removed from what gave them their tier before (only the Fierce Deity has any sort of comparison to Majora), what specifically makes this exempt from being a clear outlier, even assuming everything else is fine? Just figured I'd ask since you brought it up.
tl;dr
I feel as though a multitude of factors render the reasons behind this upgrade unfit to be used as the tier justification for so many characters. Also sorry if I omitted a sentence or two, somewhere along the line.
Canon and Word of God
I feel like this is the most important thing to address, at least from my perspective, and that the other things are more secondary. So I'll go over this, first.
People seem to be treating this strategy guide as canon due to it being made by Nintendo/licensed by Nintendo, but this is a gross oversimplification. In regards to being "made by Nintendo", as I mentioned before, this isn't entirely the truth. The guide is marketed as "The ONLY guide from Nintendo" on its cover. This is because, much like Nintendo power, it is published by Nintendo of America. Published, not created by. Nintendo Power is not Nintendo/Nintendo of America, and this should be evident from the fact that one of this guide's writers left Nintendo Power to work at Nintendo of America (four years after this guide's publication), alongside the fact that Nintendo of America was not Nintendo Power's sole publisher throughout its run (it went independent at one point, and was then published by Future US until the end of its run, I believe).
The guide was written by Nintendo Power writers, and is effectively a Nintendo power guide, which was then published by Nintendo of America, like the magazine itself. The guide itself even boasts "...it's the only guide for Majora's Mask that was written by the insiders at Nintendo Power." Nintendo Power writers, not any members of the Majora's Mask team/helped make the game, or higher ups at Nintendo. This information is, by the common definition we ascribe it, not Word of God. This is not information by "Nintendo itself" made to clarify the events of Majora's Mask. It is information from American writers of Nintendo Power, a magazine was at the time published by Nintendo of America. I'm sorry, but this is far too distant from the source material to be considered something that is the official meaning of the game that nobody at Nintendo ever told us, and considering we already often apply a degree of skepticism to statements directly from an author should the source not entirely support them, I can't fathom how this is deemed perfectly acceptable. It is the interpretation of people working for a Nintendo-themed magazine that they published.
If it's deemed more reliable due to being licensed by Nintendo, so are most Nintendo products. The Prima version of this guide was written by people who had nothing to do with Nintendo whatsoever, and is still an "Official Nintendo Licensed Product". It just means Nintendo has approved and licensed the product. It has nothing to do with canon, and does not mean the product was directly created by Nintendo.
With that out of the way, assuming people for some reason still deem this a reliable source of information able to drastically change the scale of the game, I'll cover what we currently use to support Majora's 3-A tier.
Warping a Universe
The first sentence of Majora's justification reads "Said to have warped all of Termina, a parallel universe, to the point where the heavens, space, and time were corrupted." This is a bit misleading, as these are two entirely separate quotes from separate sections of the book that don't exactly go together, so I'll cover them individually. We'll look at the Woodfall statement, first.
This statement reads, "The water was once pure, but, like everything else in the parallel universe, it has become tainted by the cruel intentions of the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask." This statement is used to imply that Majora warped the entire universe on some kind of notable scale. However, nothing actually suggests this, in the guide or in the game. Even ignoring the game for a second, let's look at the guide. The exact wording is that everything has "become tainted by the cruel intentions of the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask". Tainted by cruel intentions. Just as the water has gone from pure to poison, the world is becoming contaminated. People's lives get worse, things look hopeless, the Skull Kid ruins lives wherever he goes due to his "cruel intentions". Not only does this fit with the way the statement is worded, but it's also supported in the game.
The idea that Skull Kid actively warped everything in the entire universe, or even on the entire world, is not supported by what we see in the game. If we honestly want to argue Occam's razor, please show me why something that blatantly doesn't occur in the game (everything in Termina being warped) requires less assumptions than a less literal version of the statement that actually aligns with the narrative. The amount of assumptions one must make to justify Majora warping the entire universe is immense.
Corrupting the Heavens, Space, and Time
The next statement has the problem of being even less literal. The exact words are "Everyone's personal life has taken a turn for the worst, and it's all because of the mischief spread by the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask and the influence his cursed guise has on the moon, the heavens, space and time."
The current interpretation of said statement is that Skull Kid "corrupted" the heavens, space, and time, and that this somehow ties into him being a universe warper. This is based on nothing. As you can see for yourselves, the statement just says that the mask has some sort of influence over the heavens, space, and time. It does not say what this influence is, or its extent. It just says it's there. This is very flowery language that does not make a good basis for a tier, because it doesn't actually tell us what we need to know.
If this is used because Majora having some kind of influence over these things means he actively controls/warps them on a major level, this is blatantly false. Anyone who has played Majora's Mask can tell you that the central conflict of the game is able to occur because Majora cannot counter Link turning back time. He demonstrates no time based powers whatsoever, nor any defenses to it. This is what allows Link to save the giants and not be wiped out along with the rest of Termina at the end of the first three day cycle. Majora has no link to time, so using this as further justification for universal reality warping/control over the universe would be sketchy at the best of times.
Also, to respond to Kep, who said, "So Majora being vulnerable to time-based ablities somehow means his powers are not capable of influencing time, even to a limited extent"; basically, yes. If he shows no control over time in the game, has no time based powers, and time itself is used as the primary weapon against him within the story, Majora first must show in any sort of capacity that he has the ability to actively or passively influence time in any meaningful way. If he actually can, and this influence does what essentially amounts to nothing and changes nothing whatsoever, this should not be further used to try and justify universal reality warping, as we have no idea what his influence over the heavens and space is, or how potent it is.
Alternate Reality
The final piece of evidence used for Majora's tier is that his moon dimension is referred to as an "alternate reality", which means the same thing as "parallel universe", and therefore Majora's dimension is universal in size.
On its own, something being described as an alternate reality or some variation of such has never been enough to suggest actual universal size, on our site. This is because the terminology is so vague and can mean anything the author wants it to, and does not have to denote universal size. If we're judging it as universal because wikipedia says this, "there is sometimes an additional connotation implied with the term "alternate universe/reality" that implies that the reality is a variant of our own, with some overlap with the similarly-named alternate history", then I would like to further point out that Majora's realm does not fit the definition of alternate reality, as we know it. That would more closely apply to Termina, which is an alternate reality to Hyrule. A similar world with a different course of history, and similar characters playing different roles. Majora's world is, as described in the guide, "Hazy and surreal like a dream, the world that they've entered is a vast and eerie playground for masked children." Said world is then warped into four separate dungeons, and finally into Majora's boss chamber. This is nothing like a traditional alternate history. Again, we've always required actual evidence as opposed to simply assuming universal size when it comes to artifical/pocket realms created by characters. This should be no different.
Also, in response to Kep, who said, "...So what? This is no different than the writers using "Hyrule" to refer to the planet, even though the planet is called Earth. It's just identification. This is both out of context and irrelevant to the scenario we're debating."
Kep, I don't get where you're coming from, here.
You claim calling Clock Town a "parallel world" to Hyrule is just identification, and that it doesn't matter/is out of context. Clock Town is repeatedly called both a world and parallel world because it's just a simple way to describe it. That's my point. It is just a simple way to identify it. The writers are not suggesting that Clock Town is a planet or universe, nor that it's the entirety of this actual parallel world. We obviously know it isn't. Calling Majora's world an alternate reality is just another form of identification. It is not meant to suggest the actual alternate reality/universe as listed on wikipedia, where it follows an alternate history of the world we know. If Majora's world was in any way like Termina or Hyrule, I would completely understand where you're coming from, but it isn't. Hell, even if they just flat out used the term "alternate universe" I'd be more comfortable with this, as the intention would be clear. But I can't accept the phrase "alternate reality" as proof of universal size for something that we have only seen as containing a field and a sun (before any of Majora's alterations). We don't do this for any other franchise, especially not when it's an artificial realm created by a character without any further explanation as to what it is.
Outlier
This last one didn't really pop into my head, but I figured I'd address it because Kep mentioned it.
"And just to set things straight, none of what I said above means that outliers aren't a thing. Statements that are irreconciliably beyond a verse's tier would be rejected under the "Outlier" basis, still."
I am curious as to why you think this wouldn't apply, then. Going by what you said, this could very easily fall under "Outlier", even if all of this was considered 100% canon.
This is a 3-A feat coming from a verse where, aside from the literal gods who created the world, the highest feats are High 4-C. Of those, there are three. One for Majora, one for the strongest incarnation of the main villai (except for when his weaker version is holding the next thing on the list), and one for something considered the most powerful artifact in the verse. Remove Majora and there are two. From my understanding, this is being scaled to the Fierce Deity (obviously), as well as the Triforce, which by extension means it's scaled to Ganondorf at his peak, Demise, Skyward Sword Link, ALTTP Link, AoL Link, ALBW Link, the Master Sword, Four Swords Link(s), and Cia. Might be more I forgot.
Because all of these characters are now so far removed from what gave them their tier before (only the Fierce Deity has any sort of comparison to Majora), what specifically makes this exempt from being a clear outlier, even assuming everything else is fine? Just figured I'd ask since you brought it up.
tl;dr
I feel as though a multitude of factors render the reasons behind this upgrade unfit to be used as the tier justification for so many characters. Also sorry if I omitted a sentence or two, somewhere along the line.
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**** that was way longer than I intended.
I'm hoping the comment isn't obscenely verbose and expresses what I was trying to say in a way that's at least somewhat easy to read.
I'm hoping the comment isn't obscenely verbose and expresses what I was trying to say in a way that's at least somewhat easy to read.
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I agree 100% with Azathoth in every sense of the word. The Upgrade needs to be reversed.
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I'd more describe it as "giving my exhaustive opinion on a relatively unimportant topic because I apparently hate having free time", but sure.Antvasima said:
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I'm also back to an agreement with Azathoth all the way.
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Well, it is important for me that the wiki is reliable, but it obviously isn't a topic of great impact to society. Then again, my brother keeps telling me that worrying about politics that I cannot affect is a waste of time anyway, so in that sense this is actually more meaningful, since we have so many visitors.
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Hmm, I just temporarily regained access to wifi connection on my phone and read your post for the first time without paying much attention. I don't have much time on my hands right now and will make a more-detailed debunk tomorrow since I identified several points I disagree with, but:
- I agree that the scaling is blown completely out of proportion in order to scale to every version of Link imaginable and that I don't agree with said scaling at all; I have said this multiple times throughout my posts in this thread and the last, even before your first reply to this thread.
- Having said the above; one could easily heavily limit the scaling by arguing that Link beating Majora is the outlier here (much like we used to do with Magolor), considering the fact that the Fierce Deity mask was given to link by a casual Majora, who was still playing around at the time, and absolutely nothing else suggests Majora to be beneath a considerable number of characters in the verse, without getting into the arguments for whether the Triforce scales or not.
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We aren't scaling it to every version of Link, it only scales to Fierce Deity Link, any version of Link with the Complete Triforce, and ALttP Link who fought Ganon empowered by complete Triforce. Demise has his own High 4-C feat along with Complete Triforce also having its own High 4-C feat. There was also Zant having a possibly High 4-C rating from his multi boss battlefield warping feat, but I'm skeptical about that one and still don't think it's legit.
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We are scaling a significant amount of characters, that's what I meant by that.
Demise has no statement of being a God-Tier of the likes of Ganon empowered by the Triforce, by the way. We only assumed he was because he had a High 4-C feat, so using his feats to argue Majora is an outlier is hilariously inaccurate (no offense to anyone who did it I just saw someone doing it somewhere)
Anyway, needa' go off wi-fi range again once again, tomorrow I will be capable of responding in greater detail.
Demise has no statement of being a God-Tier of the likes of Ganon empowered by the Triforce, by the way. We only assumed he was because he had a High 4-C feat, so using his feats to argue Majora is an outlier is hilariously inaccurate (no offense to anyone who did it I just saw someone doing it somewhere)
Anyway, needa' go off wi-fi range again once again, tomorrow I will be capable of responding in greater detail.
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Yeah, Majora having his own 3-A feat would definitely not be an outlier for Majora as its his own feat. And would definitely scale to FD Link. And we weren't saying Demise is officially superior to Majora, just the Complete Triforce. Which it is the ultimate source of power provided by the 2-C Gods of the verse so that would be superior to Majora. The first and foremost point is whether or not Majora's feat is 3-A, which I once again agree with Azzy here.
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I should also note the argument I saw for it's an outlier due to High 4-C feats is just... baffling. The High 4-C feats are done stupidly casual.
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A lot of them are also questionable.
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then start your own CRT about it.Matthew Schroeder said:
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Creating pocket Realities with an Earth to sun distance is legit; as in Complete Triforce Ganon, Demise's and Majora's, but Zant's is really the only one I consider questionable, but that's for another thread. And Vaati's 4-A feat is a definite outlier.
But let's keep the topic on Majora. I agree on waiting for Kepekley but I still think Azathoth is the one being the most reasonable. And I do need to get some sleep as well.
But let's keep the topic on Majora. I agree on waiting for Kepekley but I still think Azathoth is the one being the most reasonable. And I do need to get some sleep as well.
Dust_Collector
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Zant is the only High 4-C feat I'm iffy on, but the legitimacy of some of the the tier 4 feats isn't the topic here so let's not discuss that until the 3-A stuff is done.
I'm personally neutral atm and waiting for Keps latest response.
I'm personally neutral atm and waiting for Keps latest response.
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On the topic of outliers, I would like to point out that, as an example, 40k currently has a few 4-A feats that would apply to many currently 4-B characters. We just don't use them because, at the moment, it is deemed there isn't a high enough quantity of them and that their application to currently 4-B characters may be excessive without more evidence. The 4-B feats that most people are scaled to (LoC making the Rose Cluster on the lower end, Madail's fortress on the higher end) were both performed rather easily and are not the peak of said characters' powers. Still, there is hesitation about making such a jump due to the sheer increase in scale. This is a jump of one tier.
The jump we are talking about here is from High 4-C to 3-A. Not only is it a far more significant jump, but it is based on a single feat. The High 4-C stuff being relatively casual (not even sure if this is always the case, or at least "casual" may not be the best word) does not remove the possibility (not guarantee, but possibility) of an outlier should the new feat the characters are scaled to be astronomically superior to the ones before it.
This was never one of my points from the beginning, but I feel it's worth mentioning since it was brought up, and may be a valid concern.
Furthermore...
@Kep
"Having said the above; one could easily heavily limit the scaling by arguing that Link beating Majora is the outlier here (much like we used to do with Magolor), considering the fact that the Fierce Deity mask was given to link by a casual Majora, who was still playing around at the time, and absolutely nothing else suggests Majora to be beneath a considerable number of characters in the verse, without getting into the arguments for whether the Triforce scales or not."
Though I still have issues in regards to canon and the assumed intent of statements within this guide, I will say that something like applying this feat to Majora and no one else/at absolute most one or two other people with more direct scaling to him is far less egregious. Especially since most other people are just scaled because of the Triforce, and said scaling still seems a little off to me (for reasons a bit more prevalent in something like ALTTP), but that's another issue, entirely. Like I said, I still don't necessarily agree with it, but if one were to actually take Majora as this powerful, you could much more easily justify his own power (he's only the antagonist of a single game and is laughably above everything in it up until the very end) as well as any one-off MacGuffins that may scale to him, as opposed to just assuming so many other things do simply because the Triforce is so hyped.
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Ignoring all the other stuff for now and at risk of escalating discussion or making myself sound foolish, even if it's coming from Azzy the idea of anything being superior to the True Force is inane and with no exaggeration, ignores everything about the lore since the series came out in 1986.
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@Cal
Posting this for clarification.
Less about the Triforce itself and more about the way people use it/its application. Even if you scale the Triforce to Majora, I don't feel as though the Triforce's full wish granting/magical capability should be converted to raw power/pure stats for its users, at least not automatically.
We have a Link who is currently 3-A because he kicked the shit out a complete Triforce Ganon, and this is just deemed perfectly legitimate, even though this scaling implies ALTTP Link => the Triforce, if we go by the idea that the Triforce automatically makes you as strong as it is.
This is easier to justify when you have multiple dudes that aren't the Triforce with High 4-C feats, but harder when you have a single thing totally unrelated to the Triforce with a 3-A feat that you then try to scale it and all of its wielders to.
But because this relates to how we currently apply the Triforce to things that aren't itself, that's why I said this is another issue entirely. This issue also only really arises when Majora has feats well beyond the Triforce itself, which I still don't agree with. I still feel there is too much preventing what is here from being a reliable way of justifying 3-A.
(To be perfectly honest, I expect blatantly 3-A quotes about the Triforce to arrive in the future, though.)
Posting this for clarification.
Less about the Triforce itself and more about the way people use it/its application. Even if you scale the Triforce to Majora, I don't feel as though the Triforce's full wish granting/magical capability should be converted to raw power/pure stats for its users, at least not automatically.
We have a Link who is currently 3-A because he kicked the shit out a complete Triforce Ganon, and this is just deemed perfectly legitimate, even though this scaling implies ALTTP Link => the Triforce, if we go by the idea that the Triforce automatically makes you as strong as it is.
This is easier to justify when you have multiple dudes that aren't the Triforce with High 4-C feats, but harder when you have a single thing totally unrelated to the Triforce with a 3-A feat that you then try to scale it and all of its wielders to.
But because this relates to how we currently apply the Triforce to things that aren't itself, that's why I said this is another issue entirely. This issue also only really arises when Majora has feats well beyond the Triforce itself, which I still don't agree with. I still feel there is too much preventing what is here from being a reliable way of justifying 3-A.
(To be perfectly honest, I expect blatantly 3-A quotes about the Triforce to arrive in the future, though.)
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I have no counterargument to this point.
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I partially disagree with Zelda getting downgraded.
Majora's feats are honesty whack, and can not be used at all. The Triforce itself has a universal feat which is is best showing so how a being that has not even a single piece is now on that level is beyond me.
Only characters that should keep a 3-A rating are Ganon, SS Link, ALTTP Link, and Composite Link.
The rest of the cast need to be downgraded. And Link beating full tf Ganon is PIS.
Majora's feats are honesty whack, and can not be used at all. The Triforce itself has a universal feat which is is best showing so how a being that has not even a single piece is now on that level is beyond me.
Only characters that should keep a 3-A rating are Ganon, SS Link, ALTTP Link, and Composite Link.
The rest of the cast need to be downgraded. And Link beating full tf Ganon is PIS.
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Link being PIS beating Ganon is not PIS because you spend the rest of the game making the master sword into the golden sword so it could go up against the the triforce GM is equal to TF because the sage needed to make a counter measure in case so bad person obtained the TF.
Also 3-A should probably scale to every character that wielded the full Triforce like Cia Link (in the first Loz game, ALTTP, Skyward Sword and a link between words) plus Ganon.
All the rest can be downgraded but the 3 mentioned above can stay 3-A.
Also 3-A should probably scale to every character that wielded the full Triforce like Cia Link (in the first Loz game, ALTTP, Skyward Sword and a link between words) plus Ganon.
All the rest can be downgraded but the 3 mentioned above can stay 3-A.
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Honestly, to quote AssaltWaffle and Andytremon, the "Outlier" argument does get thrown around far too often and some more clarifications on the outlier page might need to be made at some point. I can't comment on the Warhammer example due to being unfamiliar with that verse, but I do know that's a verse that tends to be all over the place with the Tiering/scaling from what I here. But, the standard on outliers should be less about the number of feats or the "Big gaps" between the AP feats, but rather the context of each feat. This is a Quality over Quantity site, not the other way around.
For example, there are plenty of JRPG verses where the protagonists have seemingly standard showings throughout most of the game, but then the end game has this powerful Final Boss with a legit feat. The context is the protagonists go from stomping giant monsters left and right and always constantly gettings stronger after each and every battle, and then they end up going toe to toe with a Planetary/Stellar/Cosmic/Universal/Multiversal God Tier. It's a legit feat important to the story and not an outlier in this case.
Examples of outlier would be like a Tier 9/8 Marine/Footsoldier regularly performs feats on their level and goes toe to toe other characters on that level, and then suddenly survived an encounter with a Tier 7 Jedi or Demi-God like character who was obviously holding back. Or another example would be a joke underdog character who's regularly City level has a gag Star level feat which trumps the god tiers best feat being Large Planet level. There are plenty of less obvious examples on both sides, but the important thing is that context > frequency.
Anyway, the reason ALTTP Link's main reason for beating Ganon with the Complete Triforce has something to do with obtaining the Golden Sword; which is a drastically jacked up version of the Master Sword that's stronger than its ever been. Which still sounds like plot armor, but it's at least something. And he actually gets the Complete Triforce upon defeating Ganon, so he would be that strong with it regardless. And the weird part is that he suddenly gets a lot weaker after returning the Triforce and the Master Sword, which explains why he isn't so OP in Link's Awakening.
And yeah, Majora doesn't really have anything to do with the Complete Triforce directly; however, the Triforce is implied to be the most powerful thing in the verse excluding the Goddesses who created it. As it's the artifact that's been bestowed with the power of the Golden Goddesses is the main point of them. So Complete Triforce users should be above Majora regardless; if a future source material that is 100% canon decides to showcase the Sacred Realm being an entire universe, then I don't think there would be any complaints about universal Triforce then. Or even a showing in canon that Sacred Realm having a starry sky making the feat 4-A or having multiple galaxies making it 3-B or 3-A. But for now, we only see an Earth to Sun distance making High 4-C the safe lowball. And to answer the curious question about scaling to ALttP Link being that tier in general, advanced reality warping/wish granting powers is kind of a super versed ability. Pretty sure Ganon's first wish was for his raw power to be enhanced; if literally turning into a giant pig didn't make that obvious enough. Characters who can grant their own wishes should inherently be able to wish for their striking strength and durability to be equal to their pocket reality creation powers that are created using the same wish granting powers.
Back to the main topic however, I'm still leaning towards agreeing with Azathoth that I don't quite think Majora's feat is 3-A. And we don't mean to make you feel overworked @Azathoth, nor should this really be considered the most important thing on the wiki. Especially since this is a topic that has been discussed to death. It's just you are the one who's best at explaining the details and concerns with the feats. But as I said, while I will wait for Kepekley to give his refute, I think the downgrades back to At least High 4-C are reasonable.
For example, there are plenty of JRPG verses where the protagonists have seemingly standard showings throughout most of the game, but then the end game has this powerful Final Boss with a legit feat. The context is the protagonists go from stomping giant monsters left and right and always constantly gettings stronger after each and every battle, and then they end up going toe to toe with a Planetary/Stellar/Cosmic/Universal/Multiversal God Tier. It's a legit feat important to the story and not an outlier in this case.
Examples of outlier would be like a Tier 9/8 Marine/Footsoldier regularly performs feats on their level and goes toe to toe other characters on that level, and then suddenly survived an encounter with a Tier 7 Jedi or Demi-God like character who was obviously holding back. Or another example would be a joke underdog character who's regularly City level has a gag Star level feat which trumps the god tiers best feat being Large Planet level. There are plenty of less obvious examples on both sides, but the important thing is that context > frequency.
Anyway, the reason ALTTP Link's main reason for beating Ganon with the Complete Triforce has something to do with obtaining the Golden Sword; which is a drastically jacked up version of the Master Sword that's stronger than its ever been. Which still sounds like plot armor, but it's at least something. And he actually gets the Complete Triforce upon defeating Ganon, so he would be that strong with it regardless. And the weird part is that he suddenly gets a lot weaker after returning the Triforce and the Master Sword, which explains why he isn't so OP in Link's Awakening.
And yeah, Majora doesn't really have anything to do with the Complete Triforce directly; however, the Triforce is implied to be the most powerful thing in the verse excluding the Goddesses who created it. As it's the artifact that's been bestowed with the power of the Golden Goddesses is the main point of them. So Complete Triforce users should be above Majora regardless; if a future source material that is 100% canon decides to showcase the Sacred Realm being an entire universe, then I don't think there would be any complaints about universal Triforce then. Or even a showing in canon that Sacred Realm having a starry sky making the feat 4-A or having multiple galaxies making it 3-B or 3-A. But for now, we only see an Earth to Sun distance making High 4-C the safe lowball. And to answer the curious question about scaling to ALttP Link being that tier in general, advanced reality warping/wish granting powers is kind of a super versed ability. Pretty sure Ganon's first wish was for his raw power to be enhanced; if literally turning into a giant pig didn't make that obvious enough. Characters who can grant their own wishes should inherently be able to wish for their striking strength and durability to be equal to their pocket reality creation powers that are created using the same wish granting powers.
Back to the main topic however, I'm still leaning towards agreeing with Azathoth that I don't quite think Majora's feat is 3-A. And we don't mean to make you feel overworked @Azathoth, nor should this really be considered the most important thing on the wiki. Especially since this is a topic that has been discussed to death. It's just you are the one who's best at explaining the details and concerns with the feats. But as I said, while I will wait for Kepekley to give his refute, I think the downgrades back to At least High 4-C are reasonable.
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Why downgrade them to high 4-C if they were originally 4-B????????
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As it was mentioned multiple times, we don't use inverse square law for pocket reality created feats just because the sun happens to be at the edge of the pocket reality anymore. We just take the size, and compare it to the stuff in the pocket reality; Sun to Earth radius is just High 4-C.
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Pretty sure there was entire thread talking about the problem of High 4-C lowball regardless.
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