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The Legend of Zelda: Major Revision - Part II (Concluded, further discussion on 3-A in progress)

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I go to sleep for one night and come back to this

Uh

I guess it's a no overall on "Possibly Low 2-C", which is fine. Should someone close this? Azathoth and Kep can take the 3-A debate to the other thread.
 
Nah let's leave like that better finish it here since we aren't getting that low 2-C and this thread still involves in some way the 3-A feat (which is totally legit) and Azzy barely as the time to focus on mutilple threads so I'm willing to make it easier for him to continue on this one here.


But you guys can chose to do whatever you want to do
 
It is best if they finish their discussion first.
 
I wouldn't automatically assume alternate reality means universe just because of a dictionary definition or Wikipedia. But I will say the book literally does say "Parallel Universe" in addition to that. Which that bit does strongly indicate the 3-A back ups. But prefer to wait for Azathoth to come back.
 
You wouldn't, but I would, especially given the fact that the reality in question was shown to extend farther than the planet in-game. The term's official and general definition are highly relevant to a debate. Occam's Razor is a thing.

My opinion would be no different if the guidebook called it a "parallel universe". As I pointed out, the logic behind discarding the statement is the exact same logic that goes behind saying something like this:

  • "Well, calling it universe doesn't NECESSARILY mean it is a universe the same size as our own. It is only valid if it outright calls it a universe with at least 100 billion light years of diameter containing countless galaxies!"
Legitimately.
 
Also, as I pointed out, this information is much more reliable coming from the guidebook than it is coming from the mouth of any character in the game due to the game's setting.

99.9% of the game's cast is composed of unaware Terminan citizens who know absolutely nothing about Majora and its powers. It is unrealistic and 100% unreasonable to expect them to provide you with this information in-game, had it happened. Heck, Majora itself only has lines while it is possessing Skull Kid, and that's if it even has lines at all; been a long time since I played that game.
 
Ironically, from what I recall, one of the few lines that Majora/SK do have in the game goes somewhat like this:

  • "I shall consume...consume all there is."
Roughly in the same scene they are transported to his parallel world. I don't recall the exact line, but I do know he says something akin to that.
 
And to be fair, individual Zelda games are all about being vague mysteries. and that's especially true for Majora's Mask. But some games do have lore and stuff written on walls and all that; the only NPC who probably has knowledge on Majora would be the Happy Mask Sales Man.
 
That vagueness sadly leads to a lot of downplay from people who completely ignore Occam's razor. (Note: Not directed at Azathoth at all, but I do stuff for another VS site, many of whom like to downplay Zelda to country with literally every tier 5 feat or higher being ignored for some random reason (I.E. The moon isn't the size of a real moon therefore Majora's sun feat isn't legit), so I'm used to having to go the extra mile with anything zelda related)
 
Yup I have to agree I just can't see why we need to remove the 3-A the evidence that was gathered for it totally follows every rule that this wiki stand for.


And relying on in game lore from npc that doesn't know what's happening and is too busy to get hit by the moon and planning a festival is completely unfair and unjustified since in the end all these npcs aside from happy mask and Majora are irrelevant.


Unless they are like that professor that's in the tower I don't expect some farm girl to reveal the secrets of the universe while milking some cows
 
Nice GiverOfThePeace also man it's been a long ass time I haven't heard of chuggaconroy I think I'm gonna gk back watch his LPS either earthbound or paper mario the thousand years door (best Mario game ever for me) the ******* nostalgia anyway I vote to keep 3-A
 
I have a bit more hopes for 3-A staying, but we still need Azathoth's approval.
 
@Ashen Yup staff approval

I'm not exactly sure about trusting NP completely:

  • While official, there really isn't actually supporting its canonicity (Unless I missed something). Just because something is official doesn't make it canon: see Smash Bros, GT, or a lot of guidebooks for that matter.
    • More specifically, the Scholastic Pokemon guidebooks or Hyrule Encyclopedia.
  • Furthermore, from what Azzy discovered, it sounds like they don't know the creators of Majora's Mask or had any influence on the matter. More credible than Prima sure, but the writers are basically just as in the know as one another.
  • Nintendo Force isn't produced by Nintendo, or actually affiliated outside the topic. So I'm not sure that's a legitimate comparsion for why it doesn't have the seal of quality. It's quite literally a fan project.
It's probably fine as supporting material, so if we do have a main point of evidence, then just change the reasoning to that.
 
> While official, there really isn't actually supporting its canonicity (Unless I missed something). Just because something is official doesn't make it canon: see Smash Bros, GT, or a lot of guidebooks for that matter

I don't see why Dragon Ball GT can't be considered canon to the original Toei anime adaptation. In fact, we do consider it canon; Toei! Freeza's High 4-C feat is derived from how Planet Vegeta was portrayed in GT, and we consider the "Toeiverse" the sum total of all 90s Dragon Ball Toei works.

> More specifically, the Scholastic Pokemon guidebooks or Hyrule Encyclopedia.

Hyrule Encyclopedia is considered non-canon specifically because the original authors implied it wasn't to be taken at face-value. Never heard of the Pokémon guides so can't comment there.

> Nintendo Force isn't produced by Nintendo, or actually affiliated outside the topic. So I'm not sure that's a legitimate comparsion for why it doesn't have the seal of quality. It's quite literally a fan project.

...We are talking about Nintendo Power, not Nintendo Force. Nintendo Force is a fan magazine with zero affiliation to anything official created by IGN of all things. Nintendo Power is official.
 
Dragon Ball GT is a terrible example; it's only a canon sequel to the ToeiVerse/Dragon Ball's version of ESU. It's obviously non-canon to the original Manga and Dragon Ball Super for sure. SD is completely right about the Pokemon guidebooks though.

And Kepekley is right that this is Nintendo Power, not Nintendo Force, which is much stronger than either one and is especially stronger than Nintendo Force. But on the contrary, Nintendo Power still has made a bunch of Non-canon spinoff comics for a bunch of games. And simply being published by Nintendo doesn't make it canon.
 
@Kep I was refering GT as canon to the manga. Even then, Smash Bros comes to mind.

To make a long story short, Scholastic has the rights to make guidebooks for the Pokemon franchise, due to their widespread popularity it was quickly realized that they make stuff out of the blue and don't check much of the actual series.

Ashen brings up Nintendo Force as a point to say that the seal of legitimacy makes it word of God.

@DDM ^refer to above

Good point with Nintendo Power though, isn't that literally just legitmizing my issue? They don't have to be canon or stick to word of God from that alone. Kinda wipes out the canon legitimacy at the very least.

Heck, now the GT example works better. I could just argue its canon to their version of the Zelda canon, which is suprisingly interesting, if a bit off-topic. We should make a profile for that.
 
I don't really see how the Schoolastic Pokemon books couldn't be used if they're not contradictory in your example.
 
@Cal

But that point is that they are innaccurate because to legally publish information doesn't actually require fact-checking, or communication with the creators, same with the guide.
 
GT is an horrible example as it's obvious that it isn't canon to the manga and anyone with common sense can see it.

If we need to list the reasons and decide why it is not comparable to this situation:

  • It continues the events of the decidedly non-canon anime adaptation and is stated by the scriptwriters to be an entry to Dragon Ball's TV animation universe as opposed to the manga
  • The original author only had involvement in designing the characters, and had very little to do with the storyboard
  • It incorporates elements from the movie adaptations, which were stated by the original author to take place on different continuities to the manga, heavily implying it's also a different continuity
  • Toriyama called it a side-story to the original manga in an interview
  • It has been retconned out of any possible canonicity by the canonical movies and the recent events in Dragon Ball Super
 
If you wanna continue arguing GT is a bad example, go ahead. Like I said though, Smash Bros is still there.
 
Guidebooks are not a part of the comparison you're trying to make, anyway. "Canon" means events that are defined as officially part of a linear story. Smash Bros is obviously non-canon, as it is not an official part of those franchises's defined stories.

Guidebooks are meant to provide insight on events in the storyline. They should be considered as "relevant" to a debate by default, unless someone with higher capacity explicitly states they're not to be trusted or take too much liberties with the original story, as is the case with Hyrule Encyclopedia.

Like I said, we need to stop treating fictional stories as if they take place in the real world. You can't go out of your way to ask a fictional character if they're universe or galaxy busters on-screen. The story follows an unbreakable, set pattern, be it a book, video-game, comic, or movie.

In fact, as I previously argued, the guidebook makes for a MUCH stronger case than anything that could have been stated in-game. Majora's Mask cast is 99% composed of peasants that have no real reason to know Majora is universal or even planetary. Omniscient databook files, however, have absolutely all the reason to know what happened in the game's background lore. The only gap in their knowledge arises from actual, solidified contradictions, of which there are none in this specific case.

Hell, if it had actually come from a random NPC, I would have rejected it.
 
And just to set things straight, none of what I said above means that outliers aren't a thing. Statements that are irreconciliably beyond a verse's tier would be rejected under the "Outlier" basis, still.
 
Also to re-iterate even if there was a contradiction from a random NPC, they greatly underestimate Majorar's powers. So their word shouldn't even be taken as legitimate.
 
His death destroy the alternate reality he created in the moon, not termina.

That's reality warping and while I do see the feat as Low 2-C none of the reasons here is saying he created termina.
 
Then why is that a reasoning for being 3-A?

Dark Guise stuff is too vague for Low 2-C but the fact of the matter is his profile states he literally created and sustained a Universe that has it's own time space continuum
 
Hmm. It seems like Azathoth is missing again.

So has Low 2-C been rejected at least?
 
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