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The Legend of Zelda II: Adventure of General Discussion

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I don't agree with the fact that Majora created Termina. Yes, the guide states that this is the case, but ignoring guides and other resources is commonly done when they contradict what is shown in-game.

There's this cutscene in Majora's Mask.

In it, it describes Tatl remembering a drawing that Skull Kid and Tatl & Tale made on a tree when they first meet the Skull Kid before he put on the mask, before he became a psychotic monster. It then shows a cutscene depicting a non-possessed Skull Kid with Tatl and Tale taking place in Termina.


Showing that Termina existed before Skull Kid was possessed with Majora's Mask, and thus before he could have "made the world" - showing that he didn't make it.
 
Disregarding Majora creating Termina,It's still stated as a parallel Universe in the offical guide and another statement says that his power affected Time and Space within it which would be a 3-A feat in itself even if you don't consider Termina a Universe it's still an upgrade to 4-A

I'll post the thread later
 
Oblivion Lightning said:
Disregarding Majora creating Termina,It's still stated as a parallel Universe in the offical guide and another statement says that his power affected Time and Space within it which would be a 3-A feat in itself even if you don't consider Termina a Universe it's still an upgrade to 4-A
I'll post the thread later
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Saying that he should be 4-A to 3-A because a guide says his power affects "Space and Time" is quite the stretch.
 
In what way? the guide says it's a parallel Universe and having power and controlling all space and time within a Universe is obviously a 3-A feat.Termina also has several stars in the sky so if not a 3-A feat it would at least be a 4-A feat.

Let's not crowd up this thread we can discuss this when I post it.Sound Good?
 
Oblivion Lightning said:
In what way? the guide says it's a parallel Universe and having power and controlling all space and time within a Universe is obviously a 3-A feat.Termina also has several stars in the sky so if not a 3-A feat it would at least be a 4-A feat.
Let's not crowd up this thread we can discuss this when I post it.Sound Good?
Click to expand...
Because there is no feat.

A guide mentioning that "his power affects Space and Time" without anything to prove that can affect space and time can easily be seen as hyperbolic or flowery language. Non-literal words used to mystify or empower a character is seen all the time in fiction, even in fictions in where superpowers or the supernatural don't exist.


And why? This is a Zelda discussion thread, and this conversation between the two of us is both of us discussing Zelda. This is a perfectly fine place to debate tier placements.
 
I'm really busy RN and read over the Thread when I post it as it explains it better as Majora isn't affecting Space and Time and that he has absolute control over it including the land of Termina,The Heavens and Time and Space in the quote
 
Nah, the quote about Majora distorting space and time is quite literal. Just look at the actual quote itself.

And ALTTP said that Ganon entered the Sacred Realm by accident with the rest of his tribe of thieves, killed them and obtained the Triforce. Yet, Hyrule Historia retconnected the whole backstory. This isn't the first time Nintendo uses books to retcon what happened in the games.
 
It's also inaccurate to say that it's a Hyperbole as it's all literal about what Majora has control of the moon,the land of Termina,etc if those are all accurate why would the space time feat not be?
 
TriforcePower1 said:
Nah, the quote about Majora distorting space and time is quite literal. Just look at the actual quote itself.
And ALTTP said that Ganon entered the Sacred Realm by accident with the rest of his tribe of thieves, killed them and obtained the Triforce. Yet, Hyrule Historia retconnected the whole backstory. This isn't the first time Nintendo uses books to retcon what happened in the games.
Click to expand...
I did.

"Everyone's personal life has taken a turn for the worse, and it is all because of the mischief spread by the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask and the influence his cursed guise has on the moon, the heveans, space and time."

This is can easily be taken as metaphorical. In fact, taking it literally makes it all fall apart.

Majora has control over the heavens now? Is he superimposing his will over the Golden Goddess as well? 2-C Majora and Fierce Diety??? That's ridiculous, and so is the prospect of taking this quote seriously without anything substantial backing it up.

This most likely means that Majora's prescene was felt everywhere in Termina - and it was, just look up from any point of the world and you see a moon crashing down toward the planet, Majora's presence is powerful and omnipresent in the setting, but that doesn't mean that this statement should literally mean that Majora has complete control over space and time - not without actually proof.

If Majora had complete control over space and time and had created the parallel reality that is Termina - then why didn't it disappear the moment it was killed? All the effects of Majora's magic were erased from Termina the instant he died. The moon's positioning in the sky, to the world inside the moon, the effects on the provinces, to Kafei's body, et cetera.


A book contradicting what was shown or explained in the source material can, in fact, be disregarded. Especially if those contradictions are so blatant and numerous.
 
I did.

"Everyone's personal life has taken a turn for the worse, and it is all because of the mischief spread by the Skull Kid wearing Majora's Mask and the influence his cursed guise has on the moon, the heveans, space and time."

This is can easily be taken as metaphorical. In fact, taking it literally makes it all fall apart.

Majora has control over the heavens now? Is he superimposing his will over the Golden Goddess as well? 2-C Majora and Fierce Diety??? That's ridiculous, and so is the prospect of taking this quote seriously without anything substantial backing it up.

Your completely contradicting yourself here,can you prove that the "heavens" is the same heavens that the GGs are apart of because that's just an assumption you presented.Since they're referring to Termina not the realm the GG came from that's not a solid argument.I could also just say that Majora has control of the Heavens meaning the sky,provide more context than saying that it's refering to the "heavens" the GG came from despite the fact they're clearly refer to just Termina's heavens.

This most likely means that Majora's prescene was felt everywhere in Termina - and it was, just look up from any point of the world and you see a moon crashing down toward the planet, Majora's presence is powerful and omnipresent in the setting, but that doesn't mean that this statement should literally mean that Majora has complete control over space and time - not without actually proof. Can you prove that?It blatantly says Majora has control over Time and Space which would reach to several stars and possibly a Universe stated by the guide

Space=Several Stars


If Majora had complete control over space and time and had created the parallel reality that is Termina - then why didn't it disappear the moment it was killed? All the effects of Majora's magic were erased from Termina the instant he died. The moon's positioning in the sky, to the world inside the moon, the effects on the provinces, to Kafei's body, et cetera.

'Ok? just because it wasn't shown doesn't mean it didn't happen,this is a really weak counter'


A book contradicting what was shown or explained in the source material can, in fact, be disregarded. Especially if those contradictions are so blatant and numerous.

The book contradicts nothing and you have shown nothing but assume.Ive sent this to others Cal,Giver,Triforce and they all agree just wait for the thread and then argue there
 
Oblivion Lightning said:
Why,it just makes it easier to respond to your argument.Is it an actual rule?
Click to expand...
It clogs up threads and slowes them down.

There is no written rule, it is just a rule that everyone knows.
 
You can always edit the quote to include only the relevant parts you are replying to.

Dont worry, tho.
 
Oblivion Lightning wrote: *Snip*
>Your completely contradicting yourself here,can you prove that the "heavens" is the same heavens that the GGs are apart of because that's just an assumption you presented.Since they're referring to Termina not the realm the GG came from that's not a solid argument.I could also just say that Majora has control of the Heavens meaning the sky,provide more context than saying that it's refering to the "heavens" the GG came from despite the fact they're clearly refer to just Termina's heavens.

I have not contradicted anything, what are you talking about? And any assumptions I may have made are made from necessity and are based on facts - that why I made those specific assumptions, I'll explain.

Termina doesn't have a heaven. The only "heavens" mentioned in Zelda is the place from whence the Goddess came down from and constructed all of creation from the Chaos that was the world and then returned home, it is also known as the Distant Nebula. The Golden Goddesses are beyond their creation and reside in the heavens, so any mention of heavens most likely refers to the place where the gods reside.

Saying that Majora controls the heavens means that he controls the place where the gods come from, which would be the Golden Goddesses since this is Zelda, and thus it would mean that Majora controls the place where the GG come from - infering he is stronger than them, which is ridiculous.

>Can you prove that?It blatantly says Majora has control over Time and Space which would reach to several stars and possibly a Universe stated by the guide

Space=Several Stars

There is nothing to prove here.

I specifically stated that this quote can be taken metaphorically, you disagreed, and I gave you a very logical interpretation of what the quote could have meant. I never said I believed in that interpretation of the quote, I just said it was possible.

>Ok? just because it wasn't shown doesn't mean it didn't happen, this is a really weak counter

Saying an argument is weak without stating why isn't a rebuttal. All of effects of Majora's Magic were reversed the instant Majora was killed, this is something we saw in the epoligue of the game. Yet Termina still continued to exist despite that fact.

This is a logical inconsistency between what was shown in the game and what you are arguing, so no, I wouldn't say it is a "weak counter" at all.

>The book contradicts nothing and you have shown nothing but assume. Ive sent this to others Cal, Giver, Triforce and they all agree just wait for the thread and then argue there

The books statements are the foundation of your arguemnt, and I have refuted your argument by bringing up examples from the game - thus there is a contradiction between the book and the game.

And please explain how mentioning things that happen in the game that contradict your points is me basing all of my points entirely on assumptions? That is nonsensical.


And if you want to carry this debate on the thread, then post the thread instead of responding. To respond to a post with new points, is to incite a response from the own you are debating with, that should be obvious.
 
Just wanted to pop over to comment that A Link to the Past has a freaking gorgeous Credits Theme.

Finally started Majora's Mask, borrowed a 3DS for it. Though I wanna ask... what the frig is going on in Termina? Are we sure Link didn't fall from Epona headfirst after a gallon of LSD or something?

At first when I thought Termina was a different region in the world Zelda takes place it was confusing, but even knowing it's a different dimension altogether it's freaky as hell.
 
Indeed, after falling from Epona Link falls into a coma for 7 years. All you see in Majoras Mask are just hallucinations.
 
TartaChocholate said:
Are we sure Link didn't fall from Epona headfirst after a gallon of LSD or something?
Click to expand...
You just understood the reason why Majora's Mask is the best game ever.

Congratulations!
 
Can someone explain to me why we consider Ganondorf in ALttP to be empowered by the full Triforce?


Like, don't get me wrong, he definitely had the Triforce, I am not doubting that - it is visually shown to us after all.

But why do we assume that Ganondorf absorbed the entire Triforce into his body, augmenting his powers, like he does with the Triforce of Power in all the other games? Where's the proof of this?

In ALttP, when Ganon is destroyed, Link has to enter a backroom. In the room, there is an alter with an opening, and within the alter is the Triforce. Showing that Triforce isn't in Ganondorf's body, but in a room separated from his and Link's positioning at the time.

Now you might say that they wouldn't be able to show it coming out of the Ganon's body because of hardware limitations. I counter this point by bringing up the fact that the orignal Legend of Zelda for the NES, we actually see Ganon turn into a puff of red mist, and guess what? The Triforce of Power was mixed in with the left over remains of Ganon - showing that Ganon had it absorbed into his body.

So if the original showed the Triforce being a remain of Ganondorf's body when he was destroyed, then why didn't ALttP do that? My logic is that Ganon didn't absorb the full power of the Triforce within himself, but that he held onto it and left the Triforce in a secret room.

Not to mention, if Ganon really did have the full Triforce boosting his strengths, how could Link ever compete with that without a piece of the Triforce? It doesn't make any sense when taking into account the scaling either.


So ultimately, what I am getting at is that us saying that Ganondorf absorbed and was empowered by the full Triforce in ALttP is inaccurate. Unless someone has proof or something, that is.
 
^I always agreed with this and considered the fact that Ganon never used the Triforce was PIS.

I also guess I could argue and say that Link had a massively empowered Master Sword which is known to negate Magic so that very likely could have protected Link from Ganon completely killing him.Link also had Silver Arrows which were specifically designed to kill Ganon.Also the peices form in the alter room and it's implied that they came from somewhere else if that's Ganon's body or not idk.
 
I won't debate much as it's late here, but the Triforce appeared in the room only AFTER Link defeated Ganon. The Triforce explicitly says that it's waiting for "a new owner" after Ganon got defeated, which meant that he did have its power.

The reason why Link can go up against Ganon is because in the context of ALttP, the MS is the anti-Triforce incarnate, as stated by the ALTTP manual.
 
I'll remain neutral on Ganon being empowered and all but I will say it's odd that a sword made by Hylia and Link using the flames of courage,wisdom and power is able to contend with an artifact made by the Golden Godessess a power that Hylia needed in order to defeat Demise.I guess we don't really know the true nature of those flames.
 
TriforcePower1 said:
I won't debate much as it's late here, but the Triforce appeared in the room only AFTER Link defeated Ganon. The Triforce explicitly says that it's waiting for "a new owner" after Ganon got defeated, which meant that he did have its power.
The reason why Link can go up against Ganon is because in the context of ALttP, the MS is the anti-Triforce incarnate, as stated by the ALTTP manual.
Click to expand...
Yes, but it is still a separate room, if Ganondorf absorbed the Triforce, why didn't it pop out of his defeated corpse like it did in Zelda 1?

And just because the Triforce called Ganondorf his owner, doesn't mean that Ganondorf absorbed it, having the Triforce locked away in a secret room still makes the Triforce apart of Ganon's possessions. Like, whether you are walking a your dog currently or you have locked your dog in a cage doesn't change the fact that your dog is still your dog.

I am pretty sure that Ganon just kept the Triforce in his castle so that he could wish upon it, because as far as I know, you can only wish upon the Triforce when physically touching it - that's why Ganon in Wind Waker didn't just absorb all the pieces and make his wish, but had them all assemble into the full Triforce and then go to try and make his wish.


If that was true, then why would multiple other Links with the ToC have just as much trouble beating Ganon with just the ToP if the MS was an anti-Triforce thing?
 
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