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The Ice Queen battles The King of Beasts(Esdeath{Akame ga kill} vs Kaidou{One Piece})
- Thread starter MysticBrawler
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Kaidou's wincon here would be Precognition/Telepathy/Instinctive Reaction(to dodge Esdeath's attacks), Forcefield Creation/Attack Reflection(To block her attacks), Energy Projection/Air and Fire Manipulation(for mid-long range attacks), and Statistics Amplification via Thunder Bagua/Super Hybrid and Durability Negation/Explosion Manipulation(for close range attacks).
For Esdeath's wincons on the other hand, she has Analytical Prediction(to dodge Kaidou's attacks), Summoning via her Ice Cavalry(to distract Kaidou and leave him open for attacks), Durability Negation and Danmaku via her Ice Manipulation, she can also conjure walls and armor to block attacks with her Ice Manipulation. can Weather Manipulation/Empowerment via her Ice Storm Commander-in-Chief, and Time Stop(which will probably result in her win if she decides to use it).
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noninho
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Considering Kaido has a f**k ton of stamina and durability, it is possible depending on their diff in AP
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Yeah I quite understood that, so far Esdeath only real wincon are her instantly freezing kaido or Time stop as Kaido is just simply to much of a tank for her to wear him down
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Ok then.
The distance being I km is so that Esdeath has time to summon her Ice Cavalry and/or use her Ice Storm Commander-in-Chief.
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I mean can she pull that off in an instance...Would it even be in character for her to do so?
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She can if she wanted to. Her Ice Storm Commander-In-Chief is the only thing in her arsenal that can reach kilometers, so I figured that she would use it if the starting distance was far enough. With that said, since she's being given prior knowledge regarding Kaidou then it should increase the chances of her starting with it, so I'll just shorten the starting distance to keep things fair.
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Taking a quick gladden at her profile it takes some time for to make the Calvary soldiers, so kaido has the opportunity to attack her to prevent her from making the storm or just destroy the soldiers with a bolo breath.
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She can make up to 8 soldiers at once with a snap of her fingers and can make a total amount of 63 with enough time, so she can have at least 8 soldiers when the fight starts. With that said, Esdeath has 2 options here either she uses the soldiers she has on hand to face Kaidou head-on or use them to stall Kaidou long enough for her to use Ice Storm Commander-in-Chief.
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It seems I made a mistake in the last part. I rechecked the Haki page and apparently Kaidou doesn't have Durability Negation/Explosion Manipulation, those are for Beyond Advanced Haki users and Kaidou is a Advanced Haki user.
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Could they resist bolo breath heat?
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Probably not, but doesn't Kaidou start with CQC?
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Ye but when against multiple opponent he usually starts off with full zoan mode.
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I see. So I guess it's best to assume that they both start with CQC, cause Kaidou using his full Zoan form right from the start would probably result in a stomp for Esdeath since that could very well prompt her to use Mahapadma right away as well.
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Well, lets get started
Attack Potency: Kaido unfortunately stomps here no matter how you look at it. Ignoring the possible 5C tier for Kaido because it would make it already a much bigger stomp, Esdeaths AP comes from anywhere from 100 Teratons to 1.58 petatons, while Kaido upscales from a comfortable 2.28 petatons. Their strongest attacks put them at a higher tier level, but even with that, Esdeath's strongest attack comes to 250 petatons while Kaido using all his power puts him at 12.428 exatons, or 12428 petatons, meaning that no matter what way you look at it Kaido is stronger, and even then Esdeath's strongest AP can't be used in this fight as it would require prep time, which would go against SBA.
Speed: Speed is technically equalized, but it should be mentioned that thanks to Haki, Kaido's precognition would allow him to move and act faster than Esdeath, even with speed equalized. Of course, Esdeath does have Mahapadma, but it can only be used once and drains her energy considerably.
Intelligence/Experience: Esdeath is likely much smarter than Kaido thanks to her high intellect and experience as a commander, and could potentially plan a win with her prior knowledge, but Kaido himself is much more experienced in combat thanks to his greater age.
Abilities: I would like to say that Esdeath's abilities would allow her to win even with such an AP difference, but unfortunely Kaido's Devil fruit powers are just too much for her. To give a simple explanation: Kaido's Kaen Daiko cover's himself in his own flames and greatly increases his size, and said flames were hot enough that even Luffy, who can already withstand the heat aura from Akainu's Magu Magu No Mi, could not even touch him, instead having to rely on his Busōshoku Haki to actually attack him. While Esdeath's Ice is somewhat resistant to heat, its nowhere near resistant on the level of Kaido's flames, and even if it was Esdeath herself is not immune to heat.
In short, Esdeath's Ice cannot compete with Kaido's fire and would not be able to actually affect Kaido once he enter's Kaen Daiko. Even before he uses it, Kaido's Kenbunshoku Haki would allow him to see and predict against Esdeath's attempts to attack and freeze him, which would lead to him using Kaen Daiko sooner.
Conclusion: Kaido stomps, while Esdeath stomps on some random slaves head when she learns of Kaido and realises she stands no chance against him, leading to her going home.
Attack Potency: Kaido unfortunately stomps here no matter how you look at it. Ignoring the possible 5C tier for Kaido because it would make it already a much bigger stomp, Esdeaths AP comes from anywhere from 100 Teratons to 1.58 petatons, while Kaido upscales from a comfortable 2.28 petatons. Their strongest attacks put them at a higher tier level, but even with that, Esdeath's strongest attack comes to 250 petatons while Kaido using all his power puts him at 12.428 exatons, or 12428 petatons, meaning that no matter what way you look at it Kaido is stronger, and even then Esdeath's strongest AP can't be used in this fight as it would require prep time, which would go against SBA.
Speed: Speed is technically equalized, but it should be mentioned that thanks to Haki, Kaido's precognition would allow him to move and act faster than Esdeath, even with speed equalized. Of course, Esdeath does have Mahapadma, but it can only be used once and drains her energy considerably.
Intelligence/Experience: Esdeath is likely much smarter than Kaido thanks to her high intellect and experience as a commander, and could potentially plan a win with her prior knowledge, but Kaido himself is much more experienced in combat thanks to his greater age.
Abilities: I would like to say that Esdeath's abilities would allow her to win even with such an AP difference, but unfortunely Kaido's Devil fruit powers are just too much for her. To give a simple explanation: Kaido's Kaen Daiko cover's himself in his own flames and greatly increases his size, and said flames were hot enough that even Luffy, who can already withstand the heat aura from Akainu's Magu Magu No Mi, could not even touch him, instead having to rely on his Busōshoku Haki to actually attack him. While Esdeath's Ice is somewhat resistant to heat, its nowhere near resistant on the level of Kaido's flames, and even if it was Esdeath herself is not immune to heat.
In short, Esdeath's Ice cannot compete with Kaido's fire and would not be able to actually affect Kaido once he enter's Kaen Daiko. Even before he uses it, Kaido's Kenbunshoku Haki would allow him to see and predict against Esdeath's attempts to attack and freeze him, which would lead to him using Kaen Daiko sooner.
Conclusion: Kaido stomps, while Esdeath stomps on some random slaves head when she learns of Kaido and realises she stands no chance against him, leading to her going home.
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Esdeath can empower herself up to High 6-A with Ice Storm Commander-in-chief, and since she is being given prior knowledge in this fight I think it's safe to say that she will use it pretty quickly. She can also have at least 8 Ice cavalry with her when the fight starts so Kaidou's AP advantage isn't that big of a deal.
Esdeath has Analytical Prediction, and while it's not as good as Kaidou's Precognition it will at least let her keep up with his movements.
Esdeath's intelligence being better also means that she not only can figure out Kaidou's moves, but also strategize against them.
Overall Esdeath and Kaidou both have wincons so this is far from a stomp.
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Did you really not read anything I said in my post? I already explained all this in the first one, but whatever lets do this again
But whatever, lets assume that Esdeath has 8 Ice calvary soldiers like you mentioned? Well, the Ice Storm Commander in chief required the stored energy of 10, 000 soldiers to activate the storm. Having access to only 8 soldier drastically reduces the AP of the storm.
But lets get into AP for a second. At maximum power, Esdeath's storm would be 250 petatons of TNT. HOWEVER, Kaido can match Luffy's Gomu Gomu no Bajrang Gun, which just so happened to have an AP value of 12.428 exatons.... or 12428 petatons if you are interested. Kaido, is at SHEER MINIMUM, 49 times stronger than Esdeath's best feat, and even that required Esdeath to stock up on power to acheive it.
I should mention that I accidentally stated in my original post that Esdeath had a base AP of 100 teratons, but I didn't realise that she actually scales to 1.58 petatons due to scaling to 0.0063x the Ice Storm CIC calc. But even with that upgrade, Esdeath's durability her base is ~7900x weaker than Kaido's strongest attack, and she can't scale to her strongest attack due to requiring what is essentially prep time.
And I'm not gonna get into the 5C stuff, because that would just break the matchup even furtheer
Ice Storm Commander in Chief doesn't empower Esdeath, it just merely replenishes her energy while the storm is active. Even then it doesn't really matter since nowhere in the matchup it states that Esdeath has access to her ice calvary with her in this fight, meaning she can't even acess the move in the first place.
But whatever, lets assume that Esdeath has 8 Ice calvary soldiers like you mentioned? Well, the Ice Storm Commander in chief required the stored energy of 10, 000 soldiers to activate the storm. Having access to only 8 soldier drastically reduces the AP of the storm.
But lets get into AP for a second. At maximum power, Esdeath's storm would be 250 petatons of TNT. HOWEVER, Kaido can match Luffy's Gomu Gomu no Bajrang Gun, which just so happened to have an AP value of 12.428 exatons.... or 12428 petatons if you are interested. Kaido, is at SHEER MINIMUM, 49 times stronger than Esdeath's best feat, and even that required Esdeath to stock up on power to acheive it.
I should mention that I accidentally stated in my original post that Esdeath had a base AP of 100 teratons, but I didn't realise that she actually scales to 1.58 petatons due to scaling to 0.0063x the Ice Storm CIC calc. But even with that upgrade, Esdeath's durability her base is ~7900x weaker than Kaido's strongest attack, and she can't scale to her strongest attack due to requiring what is essentially prep time.
And I'm not gonna get into the 5C stuff, because that would just break the matchup even furtheer
Except Haki doesn't just provide precognition, it also provides instinctive reaction and increase stat amps to dodge attacks. Haki > Analytical prediction
Except this is a case where intelligence won't really cut it. Kaido is just massively stronger than Esdeath, and once he activates Kaen Daiko there's no way that Esdeath's Ice is going to be able to touch him. This is literally Pokemon rules, Fire beats Ice types my dude.
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Ice Storm Commander-In-Chief: Esdeath is able to focus her mighty power to create a powerful ice storm capable of covering an entire country with ice and snow. Although, she did it relying on the power that she puts into her Ice Cavalry, that took her a few days to create them (Which means that she should be capable of doing it by her own).
- Empowerment (Esdeath noted that in snowy and cold conditions, she has access to her full abilities)
In case you were wondering I'm using Kaidou's 6-A rating for this fight.
If needed I can give Esdeath prep time to make this fairer.
I'm aware of Observation Haki's capabilities, but I'm pretty sure that the combination of Kaidou facing against multiple opponents coupled with Esdeath's Analytical Prediction and Danmaku would at least make them evenly matched.
Esdeath has Resistance to Heat Manipulation (Blaze Ball has no effect on Esdeath's ice despite being able to vaporize a human -minus their bones- instantly. Can resist being melted by Tyrant's fire-breath), so I think she can handle it.
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Fair enough, but the Empowerment doesn't suddenly put her at 250 petatons, it just means she is stronger in snowy conditions. Even then, the AP value of Ice Storm Commander-In-Chief comes from using the stored power of 10000 soldiers, so while Esdeath can certainly use the ability by herself (or even with the power of 69 calvary soldiers), it couldn't reach the same level of power as she did with her full army.
But sure, lets give the benefit of the doubt assume that she could reliable cast Ice Storm Commander-In-Chief at the same level of power as using 10000 soldiers, even though their is no canonical evidence to support this. Alteratively, lets give her the full 10000 soldiers necassary for her to use it in this fight.
It would not matter. Because Kaido's own strongest attack puts him at 12428 petatons, over 49 times stronger than Esdeath's 250 petaton Ice storm feat
And consider the following
- Kaido's strongest attack doesn't require any prep time or any external conditions, unlike Esdeath's
- Esdeath herself can't scale to the 250 petatons Ice storm feat, so her durability puts her at 1.58 petatons, meaning she herself is rough 7900x weaker than Kaido's strongest ability.
Her creation of her Ice Calvary soldier still requires her to use her own ice powers, so making more would just weaken her during the fight. Not to mention that said Ice calvary soldiers only possess 25% of Esdeath's own strength, meaning that they would be easier to destroy by Kaido.
I was too.
Kaido's base AP, without any particular buffs via Haki or transformation via Devil Fruit abilities, comes to 2.28 petatons (making him 1.44x stronger than Base Esdeath), while his strongest attack where he goes all out places him at 12.428 exatons, or 12428 petatons.
Esdeath at base scales to 1.58 petatons, while her strongest attack (which requires prep time and 10000 Ice Calvary soldiers) puts her at 250 petatons.
The numbers don't lie. Being in the same tier doesn't mean having similar levels of power.
You can if you want, but it ultimately wouldn't change the outcome. I mean, sure, you can allow Esdeath to make 100 thousand or even a million soldiers, but if Esdeath matching Kaido's strongest attack requires prep time even beyond what was given in canon, can you really say the battle was fair?
Arguably, but Kaen Daiko surrounds Kaido's body with flames and makes him almost impossible to touch with conventional means. So even with the numbers advantage, Esdeath herself can't really touch him or even attack him with icicle's, because they would just melt when they get close to Kaido. Analytical prediction and danmaku doesn't mean she can overcome something like Haen Daiko near invincible aura.
True, but Kaido's fire can reach temperatures that can harm even the likes of Luffy, who could withstand high temperatures and even Akainu's Magma heat aura, which can melt metal.
Also out of morbid curiosity, I researched the melting temperature of human flesh vs the melting point of steel for this arguement. Since the human body contains multiple tissues, the average melting point can vary, but usually said melting point is in the hundreds, while the melting temperature of steel is 1370 degree's celcius. Of course, Blaze ball can vaporize flesh, but not bone, so I looked into that, and the hypothetical vaporization point of human bone would be 1500 degree's. Since Blaze ball can vaporize flesh but not bone, the temperature would have to be lower than 1500.
I bring this up because Luffy would withstand the heat aura of Akainu's Magu Magu no Mi, and even withstood being injured by it in direct contact. And this was pre-time skip, where Luffy much was weaker and didn't understand how to use Armament Haki. Upscaling from Luffy's weaker self, Kaido's flames would be much, much hotter than anything Esdeath can withstand.
(Side note, I just realized Akainu can vaporize steel, not just melt it, according to the wiki and manga, so I just checked again ... and the vaportization point of steel comes to 2,800 Degrees celcius, just close to twice as hot as the vaporization point of human bone, which Blaze Ball can't vaporize.)
I'm really sorry to say this dude, but Kaido just stomps.
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I guess I wasn't clear enough, when I said that I was using Kaidou's 6-A rating I meant that his rating would be like this: 6-A in base, higher in Zoan Forms, far higher with Haōshoku Infusion or Shuron Hakke, and High 6-A with Kaen Daiko. Sorry for the confusion I forgot to put in the OP that Kaidou's 5-C rating is restricted.
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I understand this, but all the AP value's ive listed for Kaido were 6A or High 6A, not the ones that give him the 5C rating. This match is still a stomp
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Esdeath's has wincons in this fight so if the AP difference makes it more likely for Kaidou to win then this isn't a stomp, it's just a decisive victory for him. With that said, aside from Esdeath's advantages that I already mentioned her Ice Manipulation also has durability negating properties so again the AP difference isn't that big of a deal cause she's more than capable of clinching the win., so I don't see why you still insist that this is a stomp.
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Ok. ill spell it out again.
Kadio's Kaen Daiko surrounds Kaido's body entire body with a giant dragon avatar made out of flames, which makes him almost impossible to touch with conventional means. This doesn't just apply for people, but also any attack sent his way, including giant ******* icicles. Even Luffy, who already demonstrated heat resistance before, could not touch him with physical means, instead having to rely on Busōshoku Haki to attack him from a distance via energy projection.
Point is, once Kadio's enters that state, Esdeath has no means to actually touch him, with any attack in her arsenal. She can't even try to make the place cold, because Kaido's flames are way above her paygrade in terms of AP, so even using Ice Storm Commander in Chief would not help in this regard.
Of course I can hear you say, but "But what if Esdeath attacks Kaido while he's in base form?"
Sure, it would be possible for Esdeath to hypothetically harm Kaido while in base, and she could possibly overcome his Kenbunshoku Haki by overwheming him her Ice Calvary Soldiers. However, something I have not brought up to the arguement is Busōshoku Haki and what it actually is.
Basically, its a spiritual forcefield that covers one's entire body. This is important to note because unless you decide to restrict Haki for some reason, Kaido can still use it, and it doesn't require any specific concentration like Kenbunshoku Haki does. Meaning that it would block any Ice attack Esdeath throws at him.
And don't get the durability negation of Esdeath wrong. Esdeath's attacks still require her ice to come in contact with the wielder's body before it can negate one's durability, meaning that Kadio's Haki can just block it out with forcefields. Even freezing the air would not help as Kaido can just breathe fire or (again) use the Kaen Daiko to surround his body with flames, negating the reduction in temperature.
Also, going back to the Ice Calvary Soldier's, while Esdeath can make many soldiers, they aren't going to change the outcome all that much. They are individually much weaker than Esdeath, and Kaido's own strenth is much stronger than Esdeath herself, even in his base without any particular Haki or Devil fruit amps, meaning he could just destroy tham all with a few strikes of his Kanbo or just melt them all with his fire, which on top of being hotter than Esdeath's Ice resistance, also just has a much more effective range, Especially when Kaido goes Dragon mode.
Of course, this is all just assuming that Kaido just decides to fight in base. Add in the Haki amps, the Devil fruit powers and Kaen Daiko and basically Kaido becomes both too strong and untouchable for Esdeath to do anything about.
Face it dude, its a stomp. Both in overall AP and in hax
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Hmm, ok then. Oh well, it was worth a shot.
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