The Hunter (Bloodborne) vs. Azami (Mekakucity)

[WeeklyBattles]

Multiple statements of the Great Ones being able to warp space-time to create their own realms

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Multiple statements of the Great Ones being able to warp space-time to create their own realms

I don't see how this connects to any of the places you linked me.

Just because they can do that, doesn't mean they did that for any of the Dreams/Nightmares.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Because all of the places i linked were realms created by Great Ones, The Hunter's Dream was created by the Moon Presence, the Nightmare of Mensis by Mergo's Wet Nurse, the Nightmare Frontier by Amygdala, and the Hunter's Nightmare by the Orphan of Kos, all with separate space-times and all existing apart from each other

They arent literal dreams, those are nothing but names

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I was going to poke some fun and say that they it wasn't stated that they created those realms through the method you described above, but I can thankfully add 2 and 2 together at that point.

Azami still petrifies.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Azami petrifies, the Presence resurrects the Hunter

Ricsi is correct in what he said about how the Presence thinks

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

The Hunter wouldn't be dead, ergo the Presence wouldn't ressurect them.

I thought we went over that.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

He doesnt need to be dead in order to reverse time, if he can still think he can even reverse it himself with the Bold Hunter's Mark

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

In what way is that any less dead than his brain shortcircuiting? He cannot act, he's body is uncapable to act, he cannot think. Seems pretty dead to me.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I don't see how he'd be able to think if his brain is solid stone. Also, they'd kind of need to be able to move to activate a skill or ability.

> He doesnt need to be dead in order to resurrect,

"Resurrection is the ability to revive oneself or others from the dead."

"Seems Dead" does not equal actually dead. Azami isn't resurrecting anyone when she would undo the petrification, their bodies just revert to normal. Not being able to think and act doesn't equate to being dead.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

If his brain is solid stone he's dead and time gets reversed

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

His body is just taking on a different form. In no way does that mean he's dead, especially considering Azami can turn him back on a whim.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Yes but its not him doing so to himself nor is it something he can control

He is biologically no longer alive if he is turned completely to stone, which activates the time rewind

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I revert back to my previous point that we assume the people petrified are not dead unless otherwise stated. The Hunter wouldn't have biological processes to not possess if turned into something else.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Which is exactly why the Presence would reverse time to turn him back as the Hunter is of no use to her as a statue, if she didnt need the hunter she'd leave him as a statue but she does, we've already seen Great ones turn people to statues

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

I ask again, when has the Presence done something like this?

It's role in the game is very hands-off aside from ressurecting the Hunter when they are dead.

we've already seen Great ones turn people to statues

That doesn't tell me why the Pressence would do something it hasn't done before. Status Effects are a thing in Bloodborne, and the Presense never acted when those were placed on the player.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Because the Hunter can survive any of the status effects placed on him and they dont make him permanently unable to act, comparing them to being completely turned to stone permanently is a false equivalency.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Comparing ressurection to undoing transmutation/petrification is likewise a false equivalency.

I go back to how the Presense has never acted on anything like that.

 

[Keeweed]

I mean after an hour the moon is clearly going to do something; it's not going to twiddle it's thumbs and be like "up he's Stone now, **** resurrecting him"

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Its not at all false as its a resurrection via total time rewind, not just resurrection

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

How would it perceive the petrification as permanent if Azami can un-do it at will? I also doubt that it has the capacity to know that it is permament, as it's only ever shown to react to death.

Also, you can't "ressurect" from petrification. That put, what the Hunter does is more than ressurection, but that's besides the point, see above.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Because the Presence isnt Azami and cant read minds to know she can undo it at will, it doesnt know that it can be undone at will so it has no reason to think it can

 

[Keeweed]

But the moon presence needs him; not alive but actually functional and has the ability to reset the fight instantly why would it not do that when it needs him

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

"Why would it not do" isn't a valid claim. There isn't any point in Bloodborne that the time rewind acts on anything other than death. It's presumptuous to start assuming it would start working on anything else the Presense sees as inconvenient.

It would be like saying the Presense would simply step in and fight an enemy that is a tier above 8-C Hunter, because why wouldn't it if it's stopping the Hunter from acheiving their goals?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

No, it is a perfectly valid claim to say that the Presence would rewind time for the hunter when he gets petrified due to not knowing that it can be reversed

 

[Keeweed]

Even if it knew it could be reversed why would the moon presence wait.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

Again, I point out that it has never acted like this before. Why would it start taking actions like this if it has only acted on death before?

And again,

It would be like saying the Presense would simply step in and fight/hax away an enemy that is a tier above 8-C Hunter, because why wouldn't it if it's stopping the Hunter from acheiving their goals?

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Let me just put it this wat:

• The Presence needs the hunter alive and functional
• If the Hunter is petrified, he is no longer functional and biologically no longer alive
• The Presence does not know that the petrification can be reversed
• Therefore the Presence has no reason to not reverse time for the Hunter

 

[WeeklyBattles]

It would be like saying the Presense would simply step in and fight/hax away an enemy that is a tier above 8-C Hunter, because why wouldn't it if it's stopping the Hunter from acheiving their goals?

Because it doesnt fight for the hunter, all it does is reverse time so the hunter can keep fighting on his own

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

• The Presence needs the hunter alive and functional
• If the Hunter is petrified, he is no longer functional and biologically no longer alive
• The Presence does not know that the petrification can be reversed
• Therefore the Presence has no reason to not reverse time for the Hunter

• I'd actually like to know where that comes from, honestly.
• I already went over how he's not dead.
• Likewise it wouldn't know that it's permament, going by that logic. You say it can read Azami's mind then start claiming it can't know things she would know.
• It doesn't reverse time whenever anything other than death happens to the hunter. I fail to see why it would start applying this hax wholescale to anything that incaps him.

Your logic is not based on how the Presense actually acts in-game. Otherwise you can plausably argue that it would just come in and start beating foes for the hunter, because, "why wouldn't it"?

 

[Mefre]

The moon acted seconds after the hunter was being swallowed alive by the shark-looking enemies in the fishing hamlet or if he was about to go mad from frenzy, don't see why it wouldn't do so at any other form of incappitation.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Would just like to point out, just because, Bloodborne is my favorite verse of all time. It is my favorite character in all of fiction. I've got approaching 1000 hours on the game and an absurd love for the game.

Nothing is stopping Hunter from being BFR'd. Even though the page is missing some abilities, Azami takes this. Saying the Moon Presence saves them is just NLF, frankly. Moon Presence never stopped a foe from killing the Hunter before, and it isn't like the Hunter is the only being that can fulfill the Moon Presence's goals.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

• The Presence made a contract with the Hunter so the Hunter will hunt and kill the other Great Ones, its one of the biggest parts of the entire lore of Bloodborne
• Biologically he is a rock so yes he is by all intents and purposes 100% dead
• The presence has no reason to assume its not permanent as she doesnt know how Azami's petrification works
• Actually technically it doesnt, the Hunter can reverse time at any given point regardless of if he is dead or not, the Presence can logically do the same if the Hunter gets turned into a rock

Yes actually its based entirely on how the Presence acts in-game

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Nothing is stopping Hunter from being BFR'd. Even though the page is missing some abilities, Azami takes this. Saying the Moon Presence saves them is just NLF, frankly. Moon Presence never stopped a foe from killing the Hunter before, and it isn't like the Hunter is the only being that can fulfill the Moon Presence's goals.

Bold Hunter's Mark stops him from being BFRed

The Presence reversed the Hunter being eaten alive without him dying so yes she has

 

[Mr. Bambu]

• Yes, and other Hunters were taken into the dream in previous cycles of this dream. Eileen and Djura being prime examples. The Hunter isn't the only one, just the one we take care of.

• Not really. On a very basic level, yeah, he's dead, but not in the truest sense of the word, he (she?) is still alive, merely experiencing a change in matter.

• The Hunter being unable to kill Azami except in literally one scenario versus Azami's multiple methods make this pretty clear

• No they can't, they reverse time when they die. Hence enemies respawning. Your Presence reasoning is a maybe from me, depends on how you look at it (though to my knowledge Azami's petrification victims were never held to be dead, just stone). I'd equate it to the Ice Queen from Narnia.

I vote Azami. These arguments are semantics over whether or not petrification = death (not always) or whether the Presence haxes for Hunter, which they don't unless they die, and the Presence can get other Hunters anyways. It's done so in the past.

 

[Mefre]

I should probably note, while the sharks swallowing you whole does take away all your HP instantly, that is only a game mechanic, as they don't chew on the hunter or anything, they just gobble him down like water.

 

[Dargoo_Faust]

• Biologically he is a rock so yes he is by all intents and purposes 100% dead
• The presence has no reason to assume its not permanent as she doesnt know how Azami's petrification works
• Actually technically it doesnt, the Hunter can reverse time at any given point regardless of if he is dead or not, the Presence can logically do the same if the Hunter gets turned into a rock

Yes actually its based entirely on Nhow the Presence acts in-game

• Petrification doesn't kill if it is temporary. Azami can transmute him to and fro a frozen stone state; there is no death between that.

• Nor does it have any reason to assume it is permament either, you're arguing on negatives.

• Bold Hunter's mark has to be physically activated. And he can't do that while he's solid stone, sorry.

No, I'm not seeing anything new here. The Presense has only acted on death.

Being eaten alive? That's hilarious, he's being chomped in half and killed, and respawns after going i.

The Bold "YOU DIED" and your HP going to zero, I hope, makes this clear enough.

 

[Keeweed]

But why would the moon presence not care if he's a statue!? Oh yeah that guy I reset time for one hundred times by this point might aswell not do it this time because something slightly different happened

 

[WeeklyBattles]

snip

Bold Hunter's Mark can return Hunter from the Hunter's Nightmare, Nightmare of Mensis, and the Nightmare Frontier, all of which are pocket realities. None of the other hunters are stated to have made a contract with the Moon Presence other than the Hunter and none have shown to use the Bold Hunter's Mark.

No, having your body and mind converted into stone is death in the truest sense of the word.

Azami has no method to win here though

No, look up the Bold Hunter's Mark, it allows him to reverse time whenever he wants

 

[Keeweed]

The hunter's never become comatose/unable to move before. The presence wants him to be functional; if he isn't functioning then he'll restart the fight. The reason he doesn't interfere without fights is because the hunter is still fighting and possibly may win that time around but if the hunter is stone for an hour the presence is going to know something is up.

 

[Mr. Bambu]

Because claiming "lolmoonpresence" is NLF. Because the Moon Presence doesn't bother with every single status effect the Hunter gets. Because the Hunter isn't dead in this state. Because there's an equally high as chance the Hunter is just thrown into the Heat Haze.