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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

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would this be 1-A?
God is an eternal, formless and infinite consciousness, Maya is the dream of God. While Maya is the illusion, God is the ultimate Reality, the true reality beyond Maya, the Reality from which all dreams emanated. He is beyond duality (Including the duality of space and time, Infinity and limitation, existence and non-existence) as the concept of duality is still inside of Maya who is his dream. If creation is a movie playing in a cinema then God is the projectionist. He is the ultimate cause of everything. He is one with everything and everyone, he is one with the soul, the true self of everyone. The true self of humans are infinite and timeless but even the human soul swims in the eternal ocean that is God. Creation includes Heaven, which is unreachably beyond the limits of the multiverse, and a further layer of dreams that transcends Heaven similarly, all of which God is unfathomably above
 
Well there looks to be a chance of ending soon... Depending on how long it takes for the summary to be posted, how long it takes for staff to discuss the summary, whether anyone has a big enough problem that things have to be changed and we go back to square one, how long it takes for staff to vote and for someone to decide that's enough votes, how long it takes for staff to actually getting around to changing things if it's accepted.
 
Everything12 said:
Well there looks to be a chance of ending soon... Depending on how long it takes for the summary to be posted, how long it takes for staff to discuss the summary, whether anyone has a big enough problem that things have to be changed and we go back to square one, how long it takes for staff to vote and for someone to decide that's enough votes, how long it takes for staff to actually getting around to changing things if it's accepted.
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And that's only the first of 5 threads!
 
To be fair Ultima is ahead of us on that one, already created the BDE Type 2 evaluation thread.
 
I definitely need the Ultima system on FCOC. The normal VSBW tiering system is even worse on there.

I wish there was a way to get it over quicker.
 
Robo432343 said:
would this be 1-A?
God is an eternal, formless and infinite consciousness, Maya is the dream of God. While Maya is the illusion, God is the ultimate Reality, the true reality beyond Maya, the Reality from which all dreams emanated. He is beyond duality (Including the duality of space and time, Infinity and limitation, existence and non-existence) as the concept of duality is still inside of Maya who is his dream. If creation is a movie playing in a cinema then God is the projectionist. He is the ultimate cause of everything. He is one with everything and everyone, he is one with the soul, the true self of everyone. The true self of humans are infinite and timeless but even the human soul swims in the eternal ocean that is God. Creation includes Heaven, which is unreachably beyond the limits of the multiverse, and a further layer of dreams that transcends Heaven similarly, all of which God is unfathomably above
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0.

Everything12 said:
To be fair Ultima is ahead of us on that one, already created the BDE Type 2 evaluation thread.
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Already have the Tier 0 thread written up, too.
 
I had a question. I've been hearing that "Oneness" with the Force from Star Wars's Legends continuity would be Tier 0 based on this new system. Is that true?

I don't know much about Star Wars Legends, so I can't really provide any scans. It's just stuff I've heard from other places on the internet.
 
Phoenks said:
I mean personally I'd revise the entirety of Tier 1 if I had made the tiering system...

Low 1-C would be strictly 5-D (Just the amount of 5-D characters honestly warrants this in my opinion. It's the catch-all tier for god beings that transcend their realities)
1-C would be 6-D to 9-D (Usually pretty rare dimensionality-wise)
High 1-C would be 10-D to 26-D (A lot of quantum mechanic cosmologies fall within this range. It's a pretty big gap but it makes sense imo. Maybe you could split it somehow, but I still think this makes more sense than cutting off at 11-D)
1-B would be 26-D+
High 1-B would be Aleph-0-D
High 1-B+ would be Aleph-1-D up to any whatever the **** cardinality of dimensions (The amount of verses that actually make a distinction between infinite dimensions and higher-cardinalities of dimensions is probably incredibly limited, so it's probably fair to merge this all together)
Low 1-A would be a collection of all dimensions and space and math whatever you want to call it. Type IV Multiverse. Absolute Infinity. Von Neumann Universe.

After that I guess it's just the ultima stuff.

1-A is existential/ontological/qualitative superiority (relative to the concept of space) and hierarchies of said existential superiority (An example being chains of reality-fiction differences, like in Umineko or the SCP Foundation).
High 1-A is a form of superiority that is ontologically beyond even existential superiorities in the same way that form of superiority is superior to space. Every "layer" of High 1-A would then be another superior system of transcendence. With each one having its own, potentially endless hierarchy of layers as well.
0 is, of course, beyond all systems, superiorities, qualities, quantities, etc. Basically logical omnipotence or negative theology, I guess...
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@Ultima_Reality
 
Why bother pinging Ultima for that? :v

Tons of people have given suggestions on how the tiering system should be structured, and I know that Ultima is one of them.
 
Hey Ultima, I have a question. Part of your proposal is that for Reality-Fiction relationships to be considered valid the border between the two must be absolute, with the fiction not being able to cross or interact with the reality under their own power. I presume that an even higher reality that treats both as fiction elevating the 'fiction' to the reality above them isn't considered an anti-feat, but what about a being of said reality elevating the fictional character to their level. I'd personally presume that to be still an anti-feat, but I want to hear if you have a different opinion.
 
Everything12 said:
Hey Ultima, I have a question. Part of your proposal is that for Reality-Fiction relationships to be considered valid the border between the two must be absolute, with the fiction not being able to cross or interact with the reality under their own power. I presume that an even higher reality that treats both as fiction elevating the 'fiction' to the reality above them isn't considered an anti-feat, but what about a being of said reality elevating the fictional character to their level. I'd personally presume that to be still an anti-feat, but I want to hear if you have a different opinion.
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I wouldn't consider that an anti-feat, no. At the end of the day, all that matters is that the interaction between fiction and reality doesn't come from the fiction's own power. So, for example, a fictional being gathering energy from the fictional world to break into reality isn't fine by any means, but a being from the real world granting "reality" to the fictional being isn't really an issue and implies no continuity between the two.
 
Understandable I was a little uncertain myself if we applied our own limits to a reality-fiction relationship to a ontological superiority, or we treated the superiority of the higher reality as great enough to overcome the border, I guess it makes sense; we have no control over our reality to that extent while a proper ontological superiority could possibly.

This brings me to another question that I'm not sure how to word so I'll just reference a popular series. Hypothetically we have strong evidence that Ultimate Madoka has a Reality-Fiction relationship in her series, would the nature of her ascension be considered an anti-feat?
 
Everything12 said:
Hypothetically we have strong evidence that Ultimate Madoka has a Reality-Fiction relationship in her series, would the nature of her ascension be considered an anti-feat?
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I'm interested in the answer to this, as well. If these revisions are passed I'd like to get some clarity on all of the ways that R>F would be disqualified and how exactly we determine whether something is R>F.

On that note, @Ultima_Reality, do you consider mainstream DC as having any R>F layers? For instance, some have argued that there is an R>F layer between Mxy and the Orrery. Setting aside the merits of that argument for now, would it be a disqualifier for someone like Perpetua to display an absence of an R>F relationship to the Orrery, given that she is explicitly above Mxy?
 
Actually, I've also thought of another example that asks the same question but in a different direction.

In the Last Boss we have this omnipotent goddess who sees the world as fiction, she uses her power to create her own universe in the world. What the protagonist (and two others) do is that they destroy the universe after the goddess has left it, and they used the power the goddess used to make the universe to strengthen themselves and enter the higher reality she resides in and attain a similar level of existence. Would this be an anti-feat to a reality-fiction relationship?
 
Everything12 said:
Would this be an anti-feat to a reality-fiction relationship?
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Disclaimer: Not Ultima

I would be inclined to think it would be an anti-feat. There should be an innate inability for the "real" power left behind by the goddess and the "fictional" characters to interact in the first place. If it really is an R>F relationship, I don't think the goddess should be capable of placing anything "real" into a fictional world. I can write a story where Superman sits on a chair, but I cannot place a real chair into a comic book. I can create any amount of fictional chairs I want, though.
 
Everything12 said:
This brings me to another question that I'm not sure how to word so I'll just reference a popular series. Hypothetically we have strong evidence that Ultimate Madoka has a Reality-Fiction relationship in her series, would the nature of her ascension be considered an anti-feat?
Click to expand...
Not familiar with Madoka Magica, myself, so you'd have to expand on that.

Everything12 said:
Actually, I've also thought of another example that asks the same question but in a different direction.

In the Last Boss we have this omnipotent goddess who sees the world as fiction, she uses her power to create her own universe in the world. What the protagonist (and two others) do is that they destroy the universe after the goddess has left it, and they used the power the goddess used to make the universe to strengthen themselves and enter the higher reality she resides in and attain a similar level of existence. Would this be an anti-feat to a reality-fiction relationship?
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Depends on how that "strengthen themselves" works, as well as on how that "leftover power" works. At a glance, I'd say it would be, yes, unless more context pops up that justifies it.

Deagonx said:
On that note, @Ultima_Reality, do you consider mainstream DC as having any R>F layers? For instance, some have argued that there is an R>F layer between Mxy and the Orrery. Setting aside the merits of that argument for now, would it be a disqualifier for someone like Perpetua to display an absence of an R>F relationship to the Orrery, given that she is explicitly above Mxy?
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Settling aside potential other issues and getting straight to the point: If Entity A has would-be R>F and then Entity B is stronger than them and yet demonstrably doesn't have R>F, then the former's case for R>F is contradicted, yes.
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
I'd assume dimensional R>F is not counted, as that it treats R>F as higher dimensions (axes), which makes it quantitative.
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What do you mean by this? Like, the higher layer is called a higher dimension? I wouldn't assume that disqualifies R>F by default unless it is specified to be a spatial axis rather than a generic higher layer (dimension)
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
I'd assume dimensional R>F is not counted, as that it treats R>F as higher dimensions (axes), which makes it quantitative.
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"Dimensional R>F" is honestly an oxymoron, so, yeah. Either it's something that only looks like (Or is being analogized to) R>F but actually is just a dimensional difference, or it's something that's receiving the name "dimension" but clearly is just R>F.
 
Deagonx said:
What do you mean by this? Like, the higher layer is called a higher dimension? I wouldn't assume that disqualifies R>F by default unless it is specified to be a spatial axis rather than a generic higher layer (dimension)
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Planetime and Cubetime for example, Grant has made it clear that these two are higher dimensions, and has referenced Cubetime as being an infinite amount of Planetimes stacked perpendicularly into a Cube. And yet, Grant has called referred to them as higher layers of R>F multiple times (albeit, not in the comics though)

To my knowledge, that kinda defeats the purpose of why R>F would end up as 1-A in the first place, Cubetime doesn't particularly view Planetime as an empty set (i.e. nothing) at all, Cubetime would be made out of an infinite stack of real planes.

Although, this would only apply to the Hypertime dimensions, the Fifth Dimension I believe probably should qualify. So as the Source for that one scan from Secret files.

Edit: it's probably important to also recognize that the Fifth Dimension is called "mathematical", for some absurd reason.
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
And yet, Grant has called referred to them as higher layers of R>F multiple times (albeit, not in the comics though)
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Well, the fact that it wasn't in the comics would disqualify it altogether per our rules on author statements.

NHTkenshin2 said:
Although, this would only apply to the Hypertime dimensions, the Fifth Dimension I believe probably should qualify. So as the Source for that one scan from Secret files.
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Hypertime in the current canon is treated essentially as just infinite timelines. If we are currently treating it as multiple time dimensions, ideally we should stop.
 
Basically, aliens grant human wishes in exchange for becoming magical girls; which they harvest the emotional energy of to prevent the heat death of the universe. One magical girl has a wish where she travels back in time in order to save Madoka, creating countless alternate universes focused on this one person. The aliens use this to grant Madoka's wish, which causes her ascend to a law of existence divorced from the world and her past self that rewrites the world into one where every magical girl in all universe, past, present, and future were saved.

For Last Boss, the context is the universe is a magic spell created by the goddess' mana (energy), and once she left the protagonist turned the universe back into mana and absorbed it to increase her power in order to enter the higher reality. Doubt the context changes anything.
 
The dimension gap in a novel is the description of dream and reality, real and false, but in terms of the number of dimensions, the description is innumerable time and space dimensions or simple innumerable dimensions. How should this be treated?
 
I think that there are certain approaches in which someone from a lower plane might be able to rise to the higher plane without something that seems like someone of a higher plane pulled them to the higher reality.

Take a cosmology in which you start as a boundless transcendental soul above time and space. Then that essence becomes "limited" by self imposed rules, limiting itself to time and space.

The limited lifeform that appears from that would be limited to time and space. But if there's a way to achieve enlightenment and notice that the limitations aren't absolute and then remove the shackles of time and space, that being could be able to ascend to their original nature.

So, in a way the source of power is of a higher nature, but at that point it's limited to the physical plane in action. In that case, there could be enlightenment methods that use nothing more than inner metaphysical potential.
 
Executor_N0 said:
I think that there are certain approaches in which someone from a lower plane might be able to rise to the higher plane without something that seems like someone of a higher plane pulled them to the higher reality.

Take a cosmology in which you start as a boundless transcendental soul above time and space. Then that essence becomes "limited" by self imposed rules, limiting itself to time and space.

The limited lifeform that appears from that would be limited to time and space. But if there's a way to achieve enlightenment and notice that the limitations aren't absolute and then remove the shackles of time and space, that being could be able to ascend to their original nature.

So, in a way the source of power is of a higher nature, but at that point it's limited to the physical plane in action. In that case, there could be enlightenment methods that use nothing more than inner metaphysical potential.
Click to expand...
I believe the contention is over whether such an arrangement would be a valid R>F layer, not simply a higher plane.
 
Executor_N0 said:
I think that there are certain approaches in which someone from a lower plane might be able to rise to the higher plane without something that seems like someone of a higher plane pulled them to the higher reality.

Take a cosmology in which you start as a boundless transcendental soul above time and space. Then that essence becomes "limited" by self imposed rules, limiting itself to time and space.

The limited lifeform that appears from that would be limited to time and space. But if there's a way to achieve enlightenment and notice that the limitations aren't absolute and then remove the shackles of time and space, that being could be able to ascend to their original nature.

So, in a way the source of power is of a higher nature, but at that point it's limited to the physical plane in action. In that case, there could be enlightenment methods that use nothing more than inner metaphysical potential.
Click to expand...
Sounds like Buddhism and higher states of consciousness
 
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