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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

Ultima_Reality said:
How exactly would you explain Elaine (Who I was referring to in my second objection earlier, btw) and the Titan Brothers, then? Would you take "Yahweh" to be just the Monad taking on a specific role and face to interact with creation, which it isn't bound to and can freely discard, and then these "other Creators" are lesser beings taking on that mask?
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I did but you’re assuming the Presence lost power or is tied to Creation. The whole message of leaving the Circle of Eternity was that he was not.

What’s more important is he didn’t chose to be God but nevertheless played the role with one of his emanation: The Presence.

The Void is part of God. This is where all things start and where all things goes as the “rule” which the Presence put. The other Creators are just creators. We’ve seen Elaine say she can save any Creation eluding that the position of God is greater than just a regular Creator. All extensions of his will and aspect produce rules. Scoria called God absolute and from any point of anything even distance which still exist in the Void is 0 to God. The Monks of Klaa believe that the entirety of the Void floats and drifts with ideas that is inside God. Yahweh put himself equal to the Buddha(Post Perfect Enlightenment) when all things were part of the Buddha as a metaphor to explain his relationship with Lucifer(Monkey King). Yahweh is a small extension of the entirety of Godhead he is.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
I did but you’re assuming the Presence lost power or is tied to Creation. The whole message of leaving the Circle of Eternity was that he was not.
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Not quite "losing power." My point is moreso that "Yahweh" certainly seems limited in ways which whatever formless Godhead he's shaped from isn't.

VeryGoofyToddler said:
Scoria called God absolute and from any point of anything even distance which still exist in the Void is 0 to God. The Monks of Klaa believe that the entirety of the Void floats and drifts with ideas that is inside God. Yahweh put himself equal to the Buddha(Post Perfect Enlightenment) when all things were part of the Buddha as a metaphor to explain his relationship with Lucifer(Monkey King). Yahweh is a small extension of the entirety of Godhead he is.
Click to expand...
Scoria's statement was moreso referring to Yahweh's omnipresence, there, since the point is that Einsteinian spacetime is relative and as such the only way to get an absolute view of it is through the thoughts of God, who is in every point of space and time simultaneously (Hence "To him, the distance is always zero, the time is always now."). Though the rest is interesting and I might check that out later.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Not quite "losing power." My point is moreso that "Yahweh" certainly seems limited in ways which whatever formless Godhead he's shaped from isn't.
Click to expand...
He is not. However, he does desire watching his Creation grow without his influence mentioning that “randomness” intrigued him. He is not at all limited, the only things he could mention is how he didn’t make Lucifer, the Devil nor him, as God because of how humans are.

The logic is that he is absolute monotheistic God that advert all things since the beginning as the One Creator. By paradox, he predates all things and other “Creations” can not predate him since the Void is separated by distance and not him which he embodies with the metaphor of the story.
Ultima_Reality said:
Scoria's statement was moreso referring to Yahweh's omnipresence, there, since the point is that Einsteinian spacetime is relative and as such the only way to get an absolute view of it is through the thoughts of God, who is in every point of space and time simultaneously (Hence "To him, the distance is always zero, the time is always now."). Though the rest is interesting and I might check that out later.
Click to expand...
It’s not talking about Omnipresence per se. They all know that Yahweh already is Omnipresence because everything down to substance is embedded with his name.

This is why Scoria had to get a method to making a metaphor drill so tiny it inches to put concepts of time and space as something that is always to God. Even to Lucifer, who shape said concept that amount to nothing to him, and to Yahweh, whom Lucifer amount nothing to even though his a Demiurgic figure called Yaldabaoth which was the blind Creator who was called Samael. Yahweh can make any Demiurges and Elaine sort of give the energy of Aeon-Sophia which roughly means Yahweh without shape is the One. This is why Lucifer remarks him hiding behind the face as “grotesque” because he knew he can not change the fact he is the Maker and all rules defined by him. Yahweh or the Old Man is simply an aspect of which he acts because no one can interact him as the full entity. Kuuzo7 did an amazing job explaining it if you remember that user.
vsbattles.com

Question about the presence (DC comics)

This has troubled me for a while now. Is there any statement or implication that the “yahweh” and the “divine presence" key are different in anyway shape or form? There is nothing on the presences profile that prove that. He should in my opinion just have a single high outerverse level (or...
vsbattles.com vsbattles.com
 
Last edited:
Jockey-1337 said:
My proposal:

1) I do not see how "R>F" stuff is beyond the "higher dimension > lower dimension" stuff, where the lower dimension also has zero mass, zero energy, and zero volume.
I think we need to downgrade all 1-A+ characters to High 1-B if their tier is based only on "infinite layers of R>F", it should be equal to "infinite higher dimensions", that is only High 1-B (Yes SCP-3812, I'm looking at you).

2) What are the differences between High 1-A and tier 0? Right now the only difference is their degree of inaccessibility (High 1-A is an inaccessible cardinal whereas tier 0 is even a higher inaccessible cardinal such as Mahlo, Woodin, and others). But fictional verses rather have Tegmark's level 4 multiverse (all possible stuff) or EMR cosmology ("all possible stuff + something impossible", if we accept it in VS) than different names of cardinals. There are very few verses where cardinals were directly mentioned. So I propose to delete tier 0 and "downgrade" all tier 0 characters to High 1-A. High 1-A itself will have different degrees of inaccessibility where the endpoint will be the full level 4 multiverse (Hail Downstreamers) because the full mathematical multiverse should also contain all inaccessible cardinals.
But on the other hand, we may borrow tier 0 only for characters who are beyond the mathematical multiverse (somehow, because our logic and language work on math as well). The examples are SCP and WOD, both verses have EMR. But again, it would work only if we accept "all possible stuff + something impossible > all possible stuff" in VS.

Both of these changes will make our tiering system more adaptive. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Yap Expansion: Malevolent Rambling
 
would this be 1-A?
God is an eternal, formless and infinite consciousness, Maya is the dream of God. While Maya is the illusion, God is the ultimate Reality, the true reality beyond Maya, the Reality from which all dreams emanated. He is beyond duality (Including the duality of space and time, Infinity and limitation, existence and non-existence) as the concept of duality is still inside of Maya who is his dream. If creation is a movie playing in a cinema then God is the projectionist. He is the ultimate cause of everything. He is one with everything and everyone, he is one with the soul, the true self of everyone. The true self of humans are infinite and timeless but even the human soul swims in the eternal ocean that is God. Creation includes Heaven, which is unreachably beyond the limits of the multiverse, and a further layer of dreams that transcends Heaven similarly, all of which God is unfathomably above
 
Well there looks to be a chance of ending soon... Depending on how long it takes for the summary to be posted, how long it takes for staff to discuss the summary, whether anyone has a big enough problem that things have to be changed and we go back to square one, how long it takes for staff to vote and for someone to decide that's enough votes, how long it takes for staff to actually getting around to changing things if it's accepted.
 
Everything12 said:
Well there looks to be a chance of ending soon... Depending on how long it takes for the summary to be posted, how long it takes for staff to discuss the summary, whether anyone has a big enough problem that things have to be changed and we go back to square one, how long it takes for staff to vote and for someone to decide that's enough votes, how long it takes for staff to actually getting around to changing things if it's accepted.
Click to expand...
And that's only the first of 5 threads!
 
To be fair Ultima is ahead of us on that one, already created the BDE Type 2 evaluation thread.
 
I definitely need the Ultima system on FCOC. The normal VSBW tiering system is even worse on there.

I wish there was a way to get it over quicker.
 
Robo432343 said:
would this be 1-A?
God is an eternal, formless and infinite consciousness, Maya is the dream of God. While Maya is the illusion, God is the ultimate Reality, the true reality beyond Maya, the Reality from which all dreams emanated. He is beyond duality (Including the duality of space and time, Infinity and limitation, existence and non-existence) as the concept of duality is still inside of Maya who is his dream. If creation is a movie playing in a cinema then God is the projectionist. He is the ultimate cause of everything. He is one with everything and everyone, he is one with the soul, the true self of everyone. The true self of humans are infinite and timeless but even the human soul swims in the eternal ocean that is God. Creation includes Heaven, which is unreachably beyond the limits of the multiverse, and a further layer of dreams that transcends Heaven similarly, all of which God is unfathomably above
Click to expand...
0.

Everything12 said:
To be fair Ultima is ahead of us on that one, already created the BDE Type 2 evaluation thread.
Click to expand...
Already have the Tier 0 thread written up, too.
 
I had a question. I've been hearing that "Oneness" with the Force from Star Wars's Legends continuity would be Tier 0 based on this new system. Is that true?

I don't know much about Star Wars Legends, so I can't really provide any scans. It's just stuff I've heard from other places on the internet.
 
Phoenks said:
I mean personally I'd revise the entirety of Tier 1 if I had made the tiering system...

Low 1-C would be strictly 5-D (Just the amount of 5-D characters honestly warrants this in my opinion. It's the catch-all tier for god beings that transcend their realities)
1-C would be 6-D to 9-D (Usually pretty rare dimensionality-wise)
High 1-C would be 10-D to 26-D (A lot of quantum mechanic cosmologies fall within this range. It's a pretty big gap but it makes sense imo. Maybe you could split it somehow, but I still think this makes more sense than cutting off at 11-D)
1-B would be 26-D+
High 1-B would be Aleph-0-D
High 1-B+ would be Aleph-1-D up to any whatever the **** cardinality of dimensions (The amount of verses that actually make a distinction between infinite dimensions and higher-cardinalities of dimensions is probably incredibly limited, so it's probably fair to merge this all together)
Low 1-A would be a collection of all dimensions and space and math whatever you want to call it. Type IV Multiverse. Absolute Infinity. Von Neumann Universe.

After that I guess it's just the ultima stuff.

1-A is existential/ontological/qualitative superiority (relative to the concept of space) and hierarchies of said existential superiority (An example being chains of reality-fiction differences, like in Umineko or the SCP Foundation).
High 1-A is a form of superiority that is ontologically beyond even existential superiorities in the same way that form of superiority is superior to space. Every "layer" of High 1-A would then be another superior system of transcendence. With each one having its own, potentially endless hierarchy of layers as well.
0 is, of course, beyond all systems, superiorities, qualities, quantities, etc. Basically logical omnipotence or negative theology, I guess...
Click to expand...
@Ultima_Reality
 
Why bother pinging Ultima for that? :v

Tons of people have given suggestions on how the tiering system should be structured, and I know that Ultima is one of them.
 
Hey Ultima, I have a question. Part of your proposal is that for Reality-Fiction relationships to be considered valid the border between the two must be absolute, with the fiction not being able to cross or interact with the reality under their own power. I presume that an even higher reality that treats both as fiction elevating the 'fiction' to the reality above them isn't considered an anti-feat, but what about a being of said reality elevating the fictional character to their level. I'd personally presume that to be still an anti-feat, but I want to hear if you have a different opinion.
 
Everything12 said:
Hey Ultima, I have a question. Part of your proposal is that for Reality-Fiction relationships to be considered valid the border between the two must be absolute, with the fiction not being able to cross or interact with the reality under their own power. I presume that an even higher reality that treats both as fiction elevating the 'fiction' to the reality above them isn't considered an anti-feat, but what about a being of said reality elevating the fictional character to their level. I'd personally presume that to be still an anti-feat, but I want to hear if you have a different opinion.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't consider that an anti-feat, no. At the end of the day, all that matters is that the interaction between fiction and reality doesn't come from the fiction's own power. So, for example, a fictional being gathering energy from the fictional world to break into reality isn't fine by any means, but a being from the real world granting "reality" to the fictional being isn't really an issue and implies no continuity between the two.
 
Understandable I was a little uncertain myself if we applied our own limits to a reality-fiction relationship to a ontological superiority, or we treated the superiority of the higher reality as great enough to overcome the border, I guess it makes sense; we have no control over our reality to that extent while a proper ontological superiority could possibly.

This brings me to another question that I'm not sure how to word so I'll just reference a popular series. Hypothetically we have strong evidence that Ultimate Madoka has a Reality-Fiction relationship in her series, would the nature of her ascension be considered an anti-feat?
 
Everything12 said:
Hypothetically we have strong evidence that Ultimate Madoka has a Reality-Fiction relationship in her series, would the nature of her ascension be considered an anti-feat?
Click to expand...
I'm interested in the answer to this, as well. If these revisions are passed I'd like to get some clarity on all of the ways that R>F would be disqualified and how exactly we determine whether something is R>F.

On that note, @Ultima_Reality, do you consider mainstream DC as having any R>F layers? For instance, some have argued that there is an R>F layer between Mxy and the Orrery. Setting aside the merits of that argument for now, would it be a disqualifier for someone like Perpetua to display an absence of an R>F relationship to the Orrery, given that she is explicitly above Mxy?
 
Actually, I've also thought of another example that asks the same question but in a different direction.

In the Last Boss we have this omnipotent goddess who sees the world as fiction, she uses her power to create her own universe in the world. What the protagonist (and two others) do is that they destroy the universe after the goddess has left it, and they used the power the goddess used to make the universe to strengthen themselves and enter the higher reality she resides in and attain a similar level of existence. Would this be an anti-feat to a reality-fiction relationship?
 
Everything12 said:
Would this be an anti-feat to a reality-fiction relationship?
Click to expand...
Disclaimer: Not Ultima

I would be inclined to think it would be an anti-feat. There should be an innate inability for the "real" power left behind by the goddess and the "fictional" characters to interact in the first place. If it really is an R>F relationship, I don't think the goddess should be capable of placing anything "real" into a fictional world. I can write a story where Superman sits on a chair, but I cannot place a real chair into a comic book. I can create any amount of fictional chairs I want, though.
 
Everything12 said:
This brings me to another question that I'm not sure how to word so I'll just reference a popular series. Hypothetically we have strong evidence that Ultimate Madoka has a Reality-Fiction relationship in her series, would the nature of her ascension be considered an anti-feat?
Click to expand...
Not familiar with Madoka Magica, myself, so you'd have to expand on that.

Everything12 said:
Actually, I've also thought of another example that asks the same question but in a different direction.

In the Last Boss we have this omnipotent goddess who sees the world as fiction, she uses her power to create her own universe in the world. What the protagonist (and two others) do is that they destroy the universe after the goddess has left it, and they used the power the goddess used to make the universe to strengthen themselves and enter the higher reality she resides in and attain a similar level of existence. Would this be an anti-feat to a reality-fiction relationship?
Click to expand...
Depends on how that "strengthen themselves" works, as well as on how that "leftover power" works. At a glance, I'd say it would be, yes, unless more context pops up that justifies it.

Deagonx said:
On that note, @Ultima_Reality, do you consider mainstream DC as having any R>F layers? For instance, some have argued that there is an R>F layer between Mxy and the Orrery. Setting aside the merits of that argument for now, would it be a disqualifier for someone like Perpetua to display an absence of an R>F relationship to the Orrery, given that she is explicitly above Mxy?
Click to expand...
Settling aside potential other issues and getting straight to the point: If Entity A has would-be R>F and then Entity B is stronger than them and yet demonstrably doesn't have R>F, then the former's case for R>F is contradicted, yes.
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
I'd assume dimensional R>F is not counted, as that it treats R>F as higher dimensions (axes), which makes it quantitative.
Click to expand...
What do you mean by this? Like, the higher layer is called a higher dimension? I wouldn't assume that disqualifies R>F by default unless it is specified to be a spatial axis rather than a generic higher layer (dimension)
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
I'd assume dimensional R>F is not counted, as that it treats R>F as higher dimensions (axes), which makes it quantitative.
Click to expand...
"Dimensional R>F" is honestly an oxymoron, so, yeah. Either it's something that only looks like (Or is being analogized to) R>F but actually is just a dimensional difference, or it's something that's receiving the name "dimension" but clearly is just R>F.
 
Deagonx said:
What do you mean by this? Like, the higher layer is called a higher dimension? I wouldn't assume that disqualifies R>F by default unless it is specified to be a spatial axis rather than a generic higher layer (dimension)
Click to expand...
Planetime and Cubetime for example, Grant has made it clear that these two are higher dimensions, and has referenced Cubetime as being an infinite amount of Planetimes stacked perpendicularly into a Cube. And yet, Grant has called referred to them as higher layers of R>F multiple times (albeit, not in the comics though)

To my knowledge, that kinda defeats the purpose of why R>F would end up as 1-A in the first place, Cubetime doesn't particularly view Planetime as an empty set (i.e. nothing) at all, Cubetime would be made out of an infinite stack of real planes.

Although, this would only apply to the Hypertime dimensions, the Fifth Dimension I believe probably should qualify. So as the Source for that one scan from Secret files.

Edit: it's probably important to also recognize that the Fifth Dimension is called "mathematical", for some absurd reason.
 
NHTkenshin2 said:
And yet, Grant has called referred to them as higher layers of R>F multiple times (albeit, not in the comics though)
Click to expand...
Well, the fact that it wasn't in the comics would disqualify it altogether per our rules on author statements.

NHTkenshin2 said:
Although, this would only apply to the Hypertime dimensions, the Fifth Dimension I believe probably should qualify. So as the Source for that one scan from Secret files.
Click to expand...
Hypertime in the current canon is treated essentially as just infinite timelines. If we are currently treating it as multiple time dimensions, ideally we should stop.
 
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