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The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

Everything12 said:
Bit of a meme here. How is this for Tier 0; an almighty being, transcendent over creation, both part of everything and outside everything. Having emanated all of creation and its concept from its being as aspects of its consciousness it perceived into being.
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Impressive. Very nice.

Does its name start with an "A" and end with a "S," perchance?
 
That does bring me to another question that bothers me, Arceus (avatar) and it's realm, they are both beyond the concepts of space (dimensions) and time, being beyond the reach of the rest of creation, problem is that both things exist for the sole purpose of allowing Arceus to interact with lesser beings on their level. So not 1-A, but would we just stick with the current Low 1-C, or would this change somehow?
 
Everything12 said:
That does bring me to another question that bothers me, Arceus (avatar) and it's realm, they are both beyond the concepts of space (dimensions) and time, being beyond the reach of the rest of creation, problem is that both things exist for the sole purpose of allowing Arceus to interact with lesser beings on their level. So not 1-A, but would we just stick with the current Low 1-C, or would this change somehow?
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Looking at the profile, it seems we treat Avatar Arceus as being higher-dimensional and the Original Spirit as the one who exists beyond dimensions altogether. Seems only the latter would be 1-A come the revisions.
 
Ultima_Reality said:
Looking at the profile, it seems we treat Avatar Arceus as being higher-dimensional and the Original Spirit as the one who exists beyond dimensions altogether. Seems only the latter would be 1-A come the revisions.
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Awkward mistake here. So because Arceus is the mind behind avatar Arceus I made a thread to upgrade it's profile to showcase, it accepted and I then added Limited Higher-Dimensional Existence as the avatar can physically be effected by Pokemon and trainers and it's only its true form mind that is outside interaction... but it probably should have been Limited Beyond-Dimensional Existence because it's from it's true form. In reality neither of them should have Higher-Dimensional Existence because they are beyond dimensions altogether, or at least the avatar is able to travel and exist in the realm it created that is beyond dimensions. whoops.
 
Tdjwo said:
Yes, I agree with that. I was arguing with deonment and he said multiple different characters could scale to tier 0 in the same verse even if they aren't the same being or have any relations to one another eg a connection to one another.
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I was not saying that, I was saying that they can't be that, and was saying that they have to be of one essence/be one being.
 
Everything12 said:
So what are the current arguments against the system then? That ontological superiority doesn't necessarily make you better than dimensions? That BDE Type 2 alone is too little for 1-A? That Tier 0 should be more inclusive or the requirements are too vague? No actual scientific backing of the logic?
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I posted them in the main thread, but I'll quote them again
Agnaa said:
With the newly announced changes, I don't think there's any inherent contradictions within the system. I just think it's not actually fixing any issues with ours (since I don't think equating R>F to being uncountably infinitely stronger is nonsensical). Plus, I think it introduces a fair bit of weirdness with indexing different verses, that make me lean slightly towards disliking it (although far more towards neutral than when I first heard of the thread).

Those concerns are:
  1. As already said, I think R>F has a minimum-viable-rating of being uncountably infinitely stronger, and I don't like stepping above such things.
  2. I think it's weird that a series can add information that a reasonable person could find impressive to their high-tiered characters (i.e. being equivalent to a large cardinal), yet that would end up significantly downgrading it.
  3. Some things which we don't currently consider too tiering relevant gain quite a bit of importance, such as platonic concepts, and souls that are non-physical and more fundamental than the bodies they sustain. Although maybe this is a bad way of viewing it, since it's more like they're still being kept at one jump, but everything quantitative is getting nerfed significantly below them.
On top of that, I find that I generally hold stricter standards than Ultima in terms of what qualifies as actual evidence of being beyond dimensions (as in, things that can make the jump to 1-A without establishing infinitely many dimensions, under the current system). Aside from the obvious stuff of treating R>F as meeting that, it seems like this revision would loosen our standards for that significantly from how they were refined 8 months ago, and really, from how they've ever been in my time on the site. I disagree with taking the highest interpretations of those statements which can easily mean something far lower.
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Tier 0 is being held off until a future thread, but the issue I take with the proposal for that is how it doesn't care too much about what happens below it, conflates multiple different ways of being "beyond size entirely" even though some seem more impressive than others (omnipotent beings not restricted by logic can do things which omnipotent beings restricted by logic can't, yet they'd be treated as equally powerful and competent in threads, similar for a being which holds all truth values and one which can't be assigned truth values), and doesn't allow for further scaling of size despite there being a few coherent ways of doing that (I see no reasons why beings which are omnipotent, divinely simple, or completely indescribable, cannot be less real than other beings, causing those beings to scale even higher into tier 0).

I'd prefer Ultima take more inspiration from the old VIW days, but tbh there probably isn't room for that unless we split 0 into sub-letters, high/low qualifiers, or incorporate + symbols there.
 
Lord_Farquaad69420 said:
Who and what
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Verbose Indexing Wiki, a now-deleted indexing site that featured a unique way of rating high-tier characters, structured in the form "C/6, C/5, C/4... B/5, B/4, B/3... A/3, A/2, A/1".

Di/Dee/Aeyu is a user present in a few vsbw-adjacent Discords. She used to be a very knowledgeable member on the topic of rating high-tier verses, but was banned for bullshit reasons, and after that was overturned she didn't come back. Since then, she's helped Ultima construct tiering revisions (although I believe she had a far larger hand in the 2019 one than this one), and helped advise people on rating high-tier verses. She was the owner of VIW.
 
My proposal:

1) I do not see how "R>F" stuff is beyond the "higher dimension > lower dimension" stuff, where the lower dimension also has zero mass, zero energy, and zero volume.
I think we need to downgrade all 1-A+ characters to High 1-B if their tier is based only on "infinite layers of R>F", it should be equal to "infinite higher dimensions", that is only High 1-B (Yes SCP-3812, I'm looking at you).

2) What are the differences between High 1-A and tier 0? Right now the only difference is their degree of inaccessibility (High 1-A is an inaccessible cardinal whereas tier 0 is even a higher inaccessible cardinal such as Mahlo, Woodin, and others). But fictional verses rather have Tegmark's level 4 multiverse (all possible stuff) or EMR cosmology ("all possible stuff + something impossible", if we accept it in VS) than different names of cardinals. There are very few verses where cardinals were directly mentioned. So I propose to delete tier 0 and "downgrade" all tier 0 characters to High 1-A. High 1-A itself will have different degrees of inaccessibility where the endpoint will be the full level 4 multiverse (Hail Downstreamers) because the full mathematical multiverse should also contain all inaccessible cardinals.
But on the other hand, we may borrow tier 0 only for characters who are beyond the mathematical multiverse (somehow, because our logic and language work on math as well). The examples are SCP and WOD, both verses have EMR. But again, it would work only if we accept "all possible stuff + something impossible > all possible stuff" in VS.

Both of these changes will make our tiering system more adaptive. Thanks.
 
Jockey-1337 said:
My proposal:

1) I do not see how "R>F" stuff is beyond the "higher dimension > lower dimension" stuff, where the lower dimension also has zero mass, zero energy, and zero volume.
I think we need to downgrade all 1-A+ characters to High 1-B if their tier is based only on "infinite layers of R>F", it should be equal to "infinite higher dimensions", that is only High 1-B (Yes SCP-3812, I'm looking at you).

2) What are the differences between High 1-A and tier 0? Right now the only difference is their degree of inaccessibility (High 1-A is an inaccessible cardinal whereas tier 0 is even a higher inaccessible cardinal such as Mahlo, Woodin, and others). But fictional verses rather have Tegmark's level 4 multiverse (all possible stuff) or EMR cosmology ("all possible stuff + something impossible > all possible stuff", if we accept it in VS) than different names of cardinals. There are very few verses where cardinals were directly mentioned. So I propose to delete tier 0 and "downgrade" all tier 0 characters to High 1-A. High 1-A itself will have different degrees of inaccessibility where the endpoint will be the full level 4 multiverse (Hail Downstreamers) because the full mathematical multiverse should also contain all inaccessible cardinals.
But on the other hand, we may borrow tier 0 only for characters who are beyond the mathematical multiverse (somehow, because our logic and language work on math as well). The examples are SCP and WOD, both verses have EMR. But again, it would work only if we accept ("all possible stuff + something impossible > all possible stuff" in VS.

Both of these changes will make our tiering system more adaptive. Thanks.
Click to expand...
QEMKFeW.jpg
 
Jockey-1337 said:
My proposal:

1) I do not see how "R>F" stuff is beyond the "higher dimension > lower dimension" stuff, where the lower dimension also has zero mass, zero energy, and zero volume.
I think we need to downgrade all 1-A+ characters to High 1-B if their tier is based only on "infinite layers of R>F", it should be equal to "infinite higher dimensions", that is only High 1-B (Yes SCP-3812, I'm looking at you).

2) What are the differences between High 1-A and tier 0? Right now the only difference is their degree of inaccessibility (High 1-A is an inaccessible cardinal whereas tier 0 is even a higher inaccessible cardinal such as Mahlo, Woodin, and others). But fictional verses rather have Tegmark's level 4 multiverse (all possible stuff) or EMR cosmology ("all possible stuff + something impossible", if we accept it in VS) than different names of cardinals. There are very few verses where cardinals were directly mentioned. So I propose to delete tier 0 and "downgrade" all tier 0 characters to High 1-A. High 1-A itself will have different degrees of inaccessibility where the endpoint will be the full level 4 multiverse (Hail Downstreamers) because the full mathematical multiverse should also contain all inaccessible cardinals.
But on the other hand, we may borrow tier 0 only for characters who are beyond the mathematical multiverse (somehow, because our logic and language work on math as well). The examples are SCP and WOD, both verses have EMR. But again, it would work only if we accept "all possible stuff + something impossible > all possible stuff" in VS.

Both of these changes will make our tiering system more adaptive. Thanks.
Click to expand...
Sigh
@Ultima_Reality Even this late into the discussion, we still have random users dropping nonsensical proposals.
 
Jockey-1337 said:
1) I do not see how "R>F" stuff is beyond the "higher dimension > lower dimension" stuff, where the lower dimension also has zero mass, zero energy, and zero volume.
Click to expand...
Zero means different things in math.

While a lower dimension has "zero" volume/existence in a higher dimension, the zero there doesn't mean "nothing" to the extent you think it does.

I also confused myself with this before. It's actually more like "1/Infinity," rather than the empty-set { } you might be thinking it is. This is because of some limits that math and science people use or whatever.

So you could say lower-dimensional objects have an infinitesimal existence in higher-dimensions. A 2-D space being a slice of 3-D space or similar. This is the reason that multiplying a lower-D space uncountably will even get you to a higher-dimension.

If dimensions really did have an empty-set value across higher-dimensions, no degree of adding, multiplying, exponenitating, etc, would get you anywhere, you'd always be stuck with an empty-set.

Meanwhile, in R>F, fiction is actually practically nonexistent relative to reality. No amount of adding fiction together will make it more real.
 
That joke doesn't really work on the wiki really well. If it was out of the wiki where Saitama is considered to have plot armour and is as strong as needed to be to one punch, sure. But here we recognise his strength increases at finite, if variable, amounts, and is not on Dragon Ball Super levels nor does he have any notable hax to even the gap.

In summation, let's not start this here. Neither characters are going to be affected by the system change so are not relevant here beyond tiered overused memes.
 
I'm really excited and waiting for the results from Ultima, DTDT and Agnaa, but... Looks like the battle is going in favor of ultima.
 
Agnaa said:
and doesn't allow for further scaling of size despite there being a few coherent ways of doing that (I see no reasons why beings which are omnipotent, divinely simple, or completely indescribable, cannot be less real than other beings, causing those beings to scale even higher into tier 0).
Click to expand...
Strictly speaking, a divinely simple (Tier 0) being can't have substantial differentiation in itself, and that includes degree. If you say it's "less real" than something, then that's already imparting a degree on an attribute it has. And since all its attributes are really one thing (The divine essence itself), that's in turn saying the being itself is composited in some way, which topples the whole thing and makes the so-called divinely simple God be not so simple after all.

So, yeah. Overall it's incoherent to place the Monad within a hierarchy, since a hierarchy inherently is just a series of levels to which some attribute is mapped, where the lowest level enjoys the least of that attribute and the highest level enjoys the most of it. A Tier 0 wouldn't really be "the highest level" of any attribute so much as the standard by which these attributes even exist and in relation to which "greater" and "lower" are defined at all.

So, for example, if you have a hierarchy of R>F, the attribute which defines its levels is "reality," where the lower level is less real and the higher level is more real. The Monad, being something whose realness is completely identical with all its other attributes (And with its essence) and not subject to differentiation in any way, would be absolute Reality, which admits no degree or proportion whatsoever.

An in-depth discussion of this is better suited for the thread following up the 1-A thread, but, yeah. "Above divine simplicity" really isn't a coherent notion at all.
 
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Everything12 said:
That joke doesn't really work on the wiki really well. If it was out of the wiki where Saitama is considered to have plot armour and is as strong as needed to be to one punch, sure. But here we recognise his strength increases at finite, if variable, amounts, and is not on Dragon Ball Super levels nor does he have any notable hax to even the gap.

In summation, let's not start this here. Neither characters are going to be affected by the system change so are not relevant here beyond tiered overused memes.
Click to expand...
damn crazy how goku still slams
 
Ultima_Reality said:
The Monad, being something whose realness is completely identical with all its other attributes (And with its essence) and not subject to differentiation in any way, would be absolute Reality, which admits no degree or proportion whatsoever.
Click to expand...
I'm a little confused by this. Wouldn't being "absolute reality" technically be the "highest" form of reality, even if it has no degrees. It still falls under the category of "reality". And wouldn't this be an issue when verses define characters "above all forms of reality and fiction" or "above the quality of realness" to get high 1-A, which would technically include the Monads absolute reality and absolute realness?
 
SubaruN2000 said:
I'm a little confused by this. Wouldn't being "absolute reality" technically be the "highest" form of reality, even if it has no degrees. It still falls under the category of "reality".
Click to expand...
Technically, yeah, but only analogically. It's a bit similar to how 0 m/s technically is "the lowest speed," even if it's not speed in the same way that, say, 20 m/s or 60 m/s or ∞ m/s is, since those are all degrees of motion and 0 m/s is no degree of motion at all.

SubaruN2000 said:
And wouldn't this be an issue when verses define characters "above all forms of reality and fiction" or "above the quality of realness" to get high 1-A, which would technically include the Monads absolute reality and absolute realness?
Click to expand...
Such verses would really just be taken as referring to "reality" as some differentiated, degree'd thing. It wouldn't include the absolute reality which definitionally can't be exceeded and is only really in a relation with the aforementioned notion of "reality" in terms of analogy.
 
VeryGoofyToddler said:
The Presence was closely described as Monad during #75 of the Lucifer series and elude his also the Bythos.
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How exactly would you explain Elaine (Who I was referring to in my second objection earlier, btw) and the Titan Brothers, then? Would you take "Yahweh" to be just the Monad taking on a specific role and face to interact with creation, which it isn't bound to and can freely discard, and then these "other Creators" are lesser beings taking on that mask for themselves?
 
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