The commoners thread: Discussing Ultima's "On the Many, Many Incoherences of the Tiering System"

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I don't think that's really what Ant meant. There is a difference between "Base a Tiering System wholly on these notions" and "Account for these notions in a way that doesn't lead to absurdities." If you asked anyone remotely educated on those matters whether an aspatial object can be "equivalent" to the volume of something spatial, the answer would of course be unequivocally "No." That hasn't much to do with how specific schools of spirituality or religion or whatever else model their cosmologies, so much as with how very elementary logic works.

My original comment was more into I am wary of “in this dogma, transcendence is described as being xyz” therfore in our system we will apply this idea as a metric for all fiction.

Generally speaking, any instance of "qualitative superiority" in any verse will inevitably compare it to quantitative things, just by virtue of the fact literally every single verse in fiction has, as its basic setting, a reality like ours. So comparisions being made is non-negotiable. What kind of comparisons those must be is what's the subject of debate.

Allow for a question. Where would the real world in the Matrix be in your proposed system?

The simulation is obviously our real world counterpart as the film message is that the world we live isn’t the real world. Would the real world in Matrix be 1-A?

I would think so, because if an author can write a book and have that idea of the book contain a its own self-contained world . This should also apply to creating a self-contained world with a program.

 

[First_Witch]

If a decision is reached and we simply accept the new system no questions asked then so be it. Im not up in arms about that. So long the decision was reached after a long and informed process, I have no qualms

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Maybe you should open your eyes and just read Ultima's 11,000 word dissertation, you might catch up with everyone else.

Talking out both sides of my mouth... How's about you start looking out both of your eyes.


...And what does that have to do with Ant????

“If you read it you’d obviously understand it and agree with it” isn’t a good argument, I read it and understood it.

The you in my statement was a general you. Not specifically you. So if that seemed targeted I apologize.

 

[Udlmaster]

I apologize.

I do not accept your apology and I will never forget how mean you were until the day I die.

I will never emotionally recover.

 

[Iiliminal]

 

[Lilixa]

The problem is not that they have different interpretations, the problem is that their different interpretations are correct and logical.

yeah, but each of their different interpretations are separate thing right ? each attribute came from different set like green is subset of color, watermelon and apple are subset of fruits and etc.

 

[Georredannea15]

yeah, but each their different interpretations are separate thing right ? each attribute came from different set like green is subset of color, watermelon and apple are subset of fruits and etc.

That's the problem anyway. For example, there would be no problem if there was an objective system such as "just consider colors". Because this system tries to gather many situations like this under one roof.

 

[Lilixa]

That's the problem anyway. For example, there would be no problem if there was an objective system such as "just consider colors". Because this system tries to gather many situations like this under one roof.

hmm i would like to see ultima respond first, but in my mind using modular thought, such system that gather many situations under one roof is fine if each situations only serves specific useful function or purposes. ? like for example interpreted certain attributes or properties...

 

[Executor_N0]

Allow for a question. Where would the real world in the Matrix be in your proposed system?

The simulation is obviously our real world counterpart as the film message is that the world we live isn’t the real world. Would the real world in Matrix be 1-A?

It depends of the nature of the other world. In their own, the actual world that is the cyberspace, no. It's a physical phenomenon that occurs in electronic scale that affects the cognition of physical beings to understand phyisical signals as other physical elements.

It's no more than an illusion seeing like sand forming the shape of other objects or we drawing with pencil and ink creating a physical remnant in the paper that resembles a other physical thing.

The worlds themselves are physical. The idealization of what they are representing might be fictional, but the structure they are living us not.

You can, for example, overload the physical system with enough electricity that will make it explode. I know for sure some bad optimized game PCs suffer from data overload that in the worst cases will make it explode.

But as long as that data exists solely as a very small, but still physical element, nothing will change.

Like I said before, there are various ways of portraying R>F interactions in fiction with various rantings and it's possible to overlap them.

For example, in Digimon there's both physical electronic data and metaphysical data and the physical one can serve as a metaphorical vessel to a metaphysical representation that can have a real effect in metaphysics. It's not because the physical component is the same, but rather that the physical component can be used as a metaphor to express the idea that lies in a higher plane of reality, and that expressed idea has that power. Of course, here is the physical/metaphysical difference rather than R>F, but I think the general idea is the same.

 

[Magicomethkuon]

Anything past High 3A continues to be a bunch of unquantifiable nonsense that will never be settled!

Universe level+ slander.

goku extreme diff, outhax with solo manip

With the Prowler Form*, FTFY.

 

[LimonataFresca]

Arale 1-A solos fiction

 

[Gasper]

Arale 1-A solos fiction

Too bad that's never happening lol

 

[Lynieryz]

Due to the way R > F will be treated, does that not mean that any 1-A will have immeasurable speed?

 

[Greatsage13th]

Due to the way R > F will be treated, does that not mean that any 1-A will have immeasurable speed?

Kinda?

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Due to the way R > F will be treated, does that not mean that any 1-A will have immeasurable speed?

No. Seeing a lower layer as fiction has zero correlation to how w character would move in their own layer.

 

[Robo432343]

No. Seeing a lower layer as fiction has zero correlation to how w character would move in their own layer.

The One Above All

The One Above All is the ostensible Supreme Being of Marvel Comics, being the creator of the whole multiverse and the realms outside of it, responsible for setting in place both existence and the clockwork machinery that keeps it afloat. As the entity's name suggests, it resides above and beyond...

vsbattles.fandom.com

???

 

[Lynieryz]

No. Seeing a lower layer as fiction has zero correlation to how w character would move in their own layer.

Not in what Ultima proposed to have the same speed as the fiction is contradictory to how Ultima is defining R>F and the same reason that makes R>F 1-A is what would cause the speed to be immeasurable.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

The One Above All

The One Above All is the ostensible Supreme Being of Marvel Comics, being the creator of the whole multiverse and the realms outside of it, responsible for setting in place both existence and the clockwork machinery that keeps it afloat. As the entity's name suggests, it resides above and beyond...

vsbattles.fandom.com

???

See here:

Immeasurable when manifesting a form (Sees all of creation and beyond from a perspective in which it appears as a comicbook, and is able to act on and interact with events from multiple points in the narrative simultaneously[20])

The One Above All isn't merely Immeasurable for R>f; they have additional context.

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

At least there is a system, such as mathematics, that is based on objective information that everyone accepts as the same globally. That's why there is no confusion

We can easily say that this system is healthier than subjective philosophical thoughts and assumptions that have no basis. I'm not saying there's nothing wrong in our current system, but at least there are fewer wrongs than the system that was tried, and the system we have now is extremely consistent and well-founded.

ultima compared fiction to an empty set, no matter how much you fill it up, its cardinality is still 0, and cannot be compared to realith

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

The One Above All

The One Above All is the ostensible Supreme Being of Marvel Comics, being the creator of the whole multiverse and the realms outside of it, responsible for setting in place both existence and the clockwork machinery that keeps it afloat. As the entity's name suggests, it resides above and beyond...

vsbattles.fandom.com

???

the one above all is not the standard case for all characters with R>F.

Not in what Ultima proposed to have the same speed as the fiction is contradictory to how Ultima is defining R>F and the same reason that makes R>F 1-A is what would cause the speed to be immeasurable.

seeing a layer as fiction and immeasurable speed are not synonymous and interchangeable. Even with R>F, characters should not get abilities they’ve never shown.

And let’s behonest, the very basis of R>F just means the lower layer does not have the range to affect the higher layer. No other abilities should be granted without proof of actual feats.

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Before I read Ultima's dissection of our system, I considered writing a Tier 0 verse, but now I'm uncomfortable making my verse anything beyond High 1-B+. We can invent alternate physical systems that behave like magic and even do physics calculations in spatiotemporal structures up to infinite-dimensional Hilbert space, but nobody in real life could ever feasibly know what it means to be beyond dimensions entirely. Strictly speaking according to real-life standards, to say something exists is to say it has a location in spacetime. Saying something is beyond spatiotemporal dimensionality entirely is to say that it doesn't exist at any time or in any place, which is the same as saying it doesn't exist at all. Of course, fiction virtually never recognizes this fact, so we have to add a tier like 1-A to accommodate for this as a fictional indexing site.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

Before I read Ultima's dissection of our system, I considered writing a Tier 0 verse, but now I'm uncomfortable making my verse anything beyond High 1-B+. We can invent alternate physical systems that behave like magic and even do physics calculations in spatiotemporal structures up to infinite-dimensional Hilbert space, but nobody in real life could ever feasibly know what it means to be beyond dimensions entirely. Strictly speaking according to real-life standards, to say something exists is to say it has a location in spacetime. Saying something is beyond spatiotemporal dimensionality entirely is to say that it doesn't exist at any time or in any place, which is the same as saying it doesn't exist at all. Of course, fiction virtually never recognizes this fact, so we have to add a tier like 1-A to accommodate for this as a fictional indexing site.

That’s an actually interesting viewpoint I haven’t considered.

 

[Ikelaggan]

Due to the way R > F will be treated, does that not mean that any 1-A will have immeasurable speed?

Kinda depends if the R > F is flattening the timeline as insignificant as well

 

[Lynieryz]

Another way to put it would be as follows: If a character is completely superior to dimensionality, not by feats of external AP but as a result of their non-dimensional nature itself, then the gap between them and dimensional thing cannot be a quantitative one (i e. A dimensional jump), as the character has none of the SPATIAL QUALITIES that'd permit such a thing. Since the superiority comes from the very nature of their existence, then definitionally it is a qualitative one, and we've already extensively shown that qualitative superiorities are not at all equivalent to differences in dimensionality or cardinality.

 

[Iiliminal]

solo manipulation >>> that shit

 

[Phoenks]

I am pretty sure Ultima's system would require Irrelevant Speed (or an equivalent) to be added back to the site. Reason being that 1-A under his system is beyond the confines of all concepts of space, time, etc. Which is something distinctly different from what immeasurable currently covers.

The whole reason Irrelevant was deleted in the first place is because VSBW moved from the "beyond space-time" stuff to now having a system wherein everything is ultimately equivalated to some degree of space-time. In Ultima's system, this is not the case.

Due to the way R > F will be treated, does that not mean that any 1-A will have immeasurable speed?

 

[Georredannea15]

ultima compared fiction to an empty set, no matter how much you fill it up, its cardinality is still 0, and cannot be compared to realith

But what is put into the set must be limited to only what is shown in the verse. If the verse restricts the set to "3", I cannot assume that it will go "4, 5, 6..."

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

I am pretty sure Ultima's system would require Irrelevant Speed (or an equivalent) to be added back to the site. Reason being that 1-A under his system is beyond the confines of all concepts of space, time, etc. Which is something distinctly different from what immeasurable currently covers.

Seeing a layer below you as fiction doesn’t mean you can jump back and forth through time in your own layer via sheer speed or violate causality of your layer.

 

[Phoenks]

Seeing a layer below you as fiction doesn’t mean you can jump back and forth through time in your own layer via sheer speed or violate causality of your layer.

In Ultima's system, R>F/1-A is literally beyond the concept of time/space/etc (That only goes up to High 1-B). There is no standard concepts of time, speed, or "causality" in the layer above where those concepts would exist (the fiction from that perspective). Hence "Irrelevant."

 

[Bobsican]

In Ultima's system, R>F/1-A is literally beyond the concept of time/space/etc (That only goes up to High 1-B). There is no standard concepts of time, speed, or "causality" in the layer above where those concepts would exist (the fiction from that perspective). Hence "Irrelevant."

Wrong, Ultima has explicitly said the contrary.

Not quite, since even the old Tiering System still had R>F Transcendences as equivalent to dimensional jumps for some reason. Moreover the proposed version of 1-A wouldn't be exclusively about "ooooH beyond dimensions." This sort of stuff qualifies for it, but generally speaking it's just "Qualitative superiorities, as opposed to quantitative."

 

[Phoenks]

Wrong, Ultima has explicitly said the contrary.

This isn't the contrary to my statement.

He explicitly said there: "This sort of stuff qualifies for it"

To be more precise, I'm just giving a boiled down synonym of what he's proposing. Because the qualitative vs quantitative thing is still a little hard for me to write with.

But yeah, qualitative superiority is essentially superior to our standard concepts of space and such.

It would no doubt require something superior to immeasurable speed, at least I would hope so.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I am pretty sure Ultima's system would require Irrelevant Speed (or an equivalent) to be added back to the site. Reason being that 1-A under his system is beyond the confines of all concepts of space, time, etc. Which is something distinctly different from what immeasurable currently covers.

The whole reason Irrelevant was deleted in the first place is because VSBW moved from the "beyond space-time" stuff to now having a system wherein everything is ultimately equivalated to some degree of space-time. In Ultima's system, this is not the case.

Immeasurable speed covers Ultima's "system".

 

[IdiosyncraticLawyer]

Irrelevant was removed at https://vsbattles.com/threads/the-remains-of-the-tiering-revision-part-3.126818/.

 

[Phoenks]

Immeasurable speed covers Ultima's "system".

How does it cover it, exactly?

"Movement beyond linear time" is nowhere near the same as "Movement that transcends the concepts of time and space"

or I suppose "Movement in a realm that is qualitatively superior to space"

Everything in immeasurable is quantifiable to some degree.

 

[Iiliminal]

Goku >>>> 1-A fodders

 

[ImmortalDread]

Phoenix, I was the last one debating the “irrelevant speed” to remain in the wiki. The only reason it was removed is that there is no practical difference between “irrelevant speed” and "immeasurable speed."

“Irrelevant speed” was considered a higher degree of "immeasurable speed," which is why it was removed, as there was no practical distinction between them.

Frankly speaking, when I was researching about this concept, this one does not even have any basis to begin with.

 

[Executor_N0]

I am pretty sure Ultima's system would require Irrelevant Speed (or an equivalent) to be added back to the site. Reason being that 1-A under his system is beyond the confines of all concepts of space, time, etc. Which is something distinctly different from what immeasurable currently covers.

The whole reason Irrelevant was deleted in the first place is because VSBW moved from the "beyond space-time" stuff to now having a system wherein everything is ultimately equivalated to some degree of space-time. In Ultima's system, this is not the case.

If needed, I'm working on a revision of the overall understanding of temporal transcendence after reading some books and studying the subject. It's a very complicated and contradictory concept over the centuries it was discussed about.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Everything in immeasurable is quantifiable to some degree.

This sounds wrong in many levels and contradictory. The word "immeasurable" implies that something cannot be measured or quantified. If something is truly immeasurable, it means that it cannot be expressed or determined in terms of quantity. In other words, it cannot be assigned a numerical value or compared in a quantitative manner.

 

[Phoenks]

Phoenix, I was the last one debating the “irrelevant speed” to remain in the wiki. The only reason it was removed is that there is no practical difference between “irrelevant speed” and "immeasurable speed."

“Irrelevant speed” was considered a higher degree of "immeasurable speed," which is why it was removed, as there was no practical distinction between them.

Frankly speaking, when I was researching about this concept, this one does not even have any basis to begin with.

The only reason they deemed it to have to now have "no practical difference" is because, fundamentally, the wiki changed from accepting things as being fully separate from dimensionality (Older version of the wiki), to now having a system wherein everything is ascribed some degree of dimensionality that is measurable in some capacity (Current version of the wiki).

This meant that all speed could be measured in some capacity as well. Since speed relies on some degree of space/time. Even if the speed is beyond the linear time. Hence, irrelevant was... irrelevant.

However, again, in Ultima's system, things would no longer all be equivalated to some degree of dimensionality/space/etc. Specifically those qualifying for his "Qualitative superiority." So things could reasonably just be beyond what space and time as a whole could cover.

This would make a big distinction between immeasurable speed, and things that are qualitatively superior to space.

This sounds wrong in many levels and contradictory. The word "immeasurable" implies that something cannot be measured or quantified. If something is truly immeasurable, it means that it cannot be expressed or determined in terms of quantity. In other words, it cannot be assigned a numerical value or compared in a quantitative manner.

What "immeasurable" as a word means has nothing to do with what it means on this wiki.

 

[Iamunanimousinthat]

However, again, in Ultima's system, things would no longer all be equivalated to some degree of dimensionality/space/etc. Specifically those qualifying for his "Qualitative superiority." So things could reasonably just be beyond what space and time as a whole could cover.

The higher layers would still have their own concepts of space/causality/math logic.

Unless, you want to make it so strict, that only logicless voids of information can qualify for 1-A.