azontr
He/Him- 39,489
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I mean that kinda just sounds like Iron Michael has a HUGE skill issue.
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The Champion of the Underground vs the Champion of Public Fighting, Baki Hamna vs Yu
- Thread starter The_man_with_the_Midas_touch
- Start date
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Kureha Shinogi and his Brother can do borderline supernatural stuff like pull out and sever individual nerves in someones body between their toes or fingers and Baki beat him with one arm.
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No really? It's just the nature of using different techniques in a fight. In a fight between 2 similarly skilled opponents, the one who is allowed to kick would always trump the one who is only allowed to punch.
Like if Baki goes for a low kick, what could Yu do against that? It's an illegal boxing move. Baki is very knowledgeable in martial arts history and if he sees Yu strictly using boxing techniques, he'd just use low kicks and grapples.
My comment was in response to Azontr btw.
Like if Baki goes for a low kick, what could Yu do against that? It's an illegal boxing move. Baki is very knowledgeable in martial arts history and if he sees Yu strictly using boxing techniques, he'd just use low kicks and grapples.
My comment was in response to Azontr btw.
azontr
He/Him- 39,489
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That doesn't seem to have any bearing on how well Baki can punch or kick, which is really all he's gonna be doing here.
Not really, no? It depends completely on the experience and skill of the fighter.
Yu would simply move out of the way. I don't think that is a particularly difficult concept to grasp.
If Baki tries to perform a low-kick, Yu will back off and sock Baki in the face. If he tries to grapple him (which people have tried to do), he's just going to, again, back off and sock him in the face.
This is the same guy who learned how to Box with literally 0 formal training. He's going to be able to avoid simple low kicks.
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- Thread starter
- #45
Keep in mind Yu has both anal prediction (with a skill chain im sure Azontr could provide) and a reaction speed advantage here.
Baki’s gonna have to do more than just throw a kick or attempt a grapple to tag him.
Baki’s gonna have to do more than just throw a kick or attempt a grapple to tag him.
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Lmao
Recon1511
He/Him- 6,737
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I have read The Boxer, I can't really remember in which chapter but it's shown to us that Yu actually perceives the world at slow motion due to trauma or something
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who has better skills Eos Baki or Eos Yu in your opinion?
azontr
He/Him- 39,489
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I have literally no knowledge on Baki EoS, so I can't answer this question.
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- Thread starter
- #51
Bump.
Hopefully the new Baki season makes match-ups like these more popular-
Hopefully the new Baki season makes match-ups like these more popular-
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doesn't baki have his own speed amps like demon back ?
afaik about alai jr, his dad was a world champ and jr scales above him.
He did beat doppo in their first match who fodderized dorian kaioh even while Hypnotized and countered all his
attacks. Keep in mind kaioh is a title that is granted to very few people who practiced chinese martial arts and I think its implied there is only 12-13 kaioh every 100 year (yujiro said "used him for 100 years.Switch him out" to kaioh ryu after he fodderized him).
Also early doppo could fight and land hits on early Yujiro Hanma in the Maxim tournament.
And then we have baki who fodderized alai jr in a few hits and was gonna kill him had his dad not stepped in.
afaik about alai jr, his dad was a world champ and jr scales above him.
He did beat doppo in their first match who fodderized dorian kaioh even while Hypnotized and countered all his
attacks. Keep in mind kaioh is a title that is granted to very few people who practiced chinese martial arts and I think its implied there is only 12-13 kaioh every 100 year (yujiro said "used him for 100 years.Switch him out" to kaioh ryu after he fodderized him).
Also early doppo could fight and land hits on early Yujiro Hanma in the Maxim tournament.
And then we have baki who fodderized alai jr in a few hits and was gonna kill him had his dad not stepped in.
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K but someone brought up alai jr and doppo so I just answered, kinda weird then
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- Thread starter
- #55
I mentioned Ali jr in my last comment in error. He fought baki post-Raitai Tournament, so it's debatable if those feats would actually scale to this version of Baki, skill-wise.
Sorry for the confusion.
Sorry for the confusion.
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Doesn't Baki by this point already have higher analytical prediction layers and higher individual feats for each layer too? Iirc, the anlytical prediction chain would look a little bit like this:
Yuri (Who was capable of predicting the movements of a pack of 24 wolves surrounding him, most likely each one relative to him) <<< Atsushi Suedo (Capable of predicting Baki following movements based on his stance) <<< Moko Ri (Capable of mapping out the "damage zone" of a fighter in order to stay out of it and avoid getting hit) <<< Gaia (through rumination is capable of reading the heart/mind of his opponents in order to counter their every move, understanding their strategies, morale, fighting spirit and numbers. He was capable of predicting the bullets of a hundred soldiers through this)<13 year old baki<<<Pre-Retsu Kaioh fight Baki<Doppo Orochi (Had developed his technique to such a point that he was capable of landing hits on Baki despite punching in slow motion)~Katsumi Orochi<<<Retsu Kaioh<Post-Retsu Kaioh fight Baki.
Also, Baki's amps like death concentration, Mach punch and demon back would give him a significant advantage over Yu by reducing the reaction speed difference.
Yuri (Who was capable of predicting the movements of a pack of 24 wolves surrounding him, most likely each one relative to him) <<< Atsushi Suedo (Capable of predicting Baki following movements based on his stance) <<< Moko Ri (Capable of mapping out the "damage zone" of a fighter in order to stay out of it and avoid getting hit) <<< Gaia (through rumination is capable of reading the heart/mind of his opponents in order to counter their every move, understanding their strategies, morale, fighting spirit and numbers. He was capable of predicting the bullets of a hundred soldiers through this)<13 year old baki<<<Pre-Retsu Kaioh fight Baki<Doppo Orochi (Had developed his technique to such a point that he was capable of landing hits on Baki despite punching in slow motion)~Katsumi Orochi<<<Retsu Kaioh<Post-Retsu Kaioh fight Baki.
Also, Baki's amps like death concentration, Mach punch and demon back would give him a significant advantage over Yu by reducing the reaction speed difference.
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- #57
Bumping cuz this match is pretty nifty.
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Bumping too
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Votin Baki because he can grapple, which is just a manlier way to say hug, something that Yu desperatly needs
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I mean if people are seriously debating this match again.
The issue is allegedly that Yu views everything in slow motion and that this isn't speed equalised for some reason I don't fully understand.
So according to Boxer supporters this is basically a stomp.
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speed IS equalized. it's in the OP.
yu just has higher reactions than his combat speed, so they stay like that
to quote the Speed Equalization Rules:
combat speed is equalized, everything else is brought down by the same factor.
yu keeps his slow-mo perception.
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Yeah, that's why I wanted to bring up Baki's amps, which greatly reduce the reaction speed difference (with death concentration working the same way as yu's reactions), pretty much taking away Yu's wincon.
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- Thread starter
- #69
reaction speed isn’t Yu’s only wincon, but if Baki has his own reaction speed amp that should definitely give him an advantage.
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What other wincons does he have?
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azontr
He/Him- 39,489
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Can scans be provided for all of these? Or at least a few, if possible?
General context would also be nice, because putting "<<<" between the characters doesn't really prove how these feats relate to each other at all.
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Alright, I have a majority of these scans on hand. I should put a few of them through imgur, but fortunately I have the most relevant forms of analytical prediction already on there.
So, here is Gaia's rumination, which allows him to know his opponents' strategies, morals, fighting spirit, and numbers, as well as being able to read their hearts and minds. With this he was capable of predicting the bullets of a hundred soldiers, and it's stated to be a lower form of Musashi's own precog, which works by literally reading the brainwaves of the opponents. Baki resisted his form of precog as a 13 year old and simply upscales from him.
Doppo upscales from a 17 year old Baki to such a point he could land several slowmo hits on him, despite telling him beforehand where he would attack, completely bypassing his analytical prediction (this is one of the things I don't have on imgur. I would gladly share it through here, but as far as I know it's not allowed to send discord links).
Then, this is something I forgot to add on the original skill chain, we have Shibukawa who could predict all of Doppo's attacks, even discerning the reall attacks from all the countless feints.
Now we have yet again Doppo, who with the True Seiken is capable of bypassing Shibukawa's prediction by erasing all intent.
Then we have Retsu Kaioh, who is stated time and time again to be capable of replicating every single feat from all martial artists in the tournament, and Baki who could predict him through imaginary fighting.
The ">>>" is either because they straight up resisted those types of precog, like Doppo with Shibukawa, or because they have strong narrative implications of having superiority to that form of analytical prediction, like Suedo with Yuri or Retsu with anyone else.
azontr
He/Him- 39,489
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For the first feat that seems like a very similar feat (almost identical) to a feat a character called 'K' performs in his younger days, where he achieves a state of "enlightened cognitive ability" that allows him to predict the movements of countless soldiers without getting hit a single time (this "state" provides analytical prediction on the level of muscle movement, blood flow, and even brain waves as well). This state is incomparable to lesser characters who already can download information like a computer to avoid getting hit a single time.
Yu upscales from all of that so severely that he was basically considered to be in an entirely different dimension and wasn't hit a single time on someone who'd reached the level of "enlightenment".
Yu upscales from all of that so severely that he was basically considered to be in an entirely different dimension and wasn't hit a single time on someone who'd reached the level of "enlightenment".
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That's pretty impressive ngl, but Baki in this key scales to 5-6 layers above this form of analytical prediction, as I've just shown. Also isn't that statement supposed to mean that Yu upscales from Jean and not K? As far as I remember, JH made some statement that K is above Jean or something, it's been a while since I've read the Boxer.
azontr
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1. We don't measure analytical prediction or skill in "layers" Now, due to recent revisions. Both Baki and Yu just have a skill scaling chain.
2. Can you elaborate on where you explained "5-6" at? Reading through both your posts I'm not really seeing it, but maybe I'm just dumb lol.
2. Can you elaborate on where you explained "5-6" at? Reading through both your posts I'm not really seeing it, but maybe I'm just dumb lol.
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Really? I still see people debating skill and quantifying analytical prediction through Layers.
The 5-6 layers is by simply putting the predictions and resistances in a chain which would look something like the following:
Gaia (The mf who can read the mind and so)<Baki 13 years old<<<Baki Pre-Retsu fight<<<Doppo Orochi<<<Shibukawa<<<Doppo with True Seiken<<<Retsu Kaioh<Baki Post-Retsu fight
This is actually 6-7 layers if you count it, mb
azontr
He/Him- 39,489
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Okay you see that comes to the part where I asked for context to the feats, because they don't inherently have a relation to each other.
Like, in the Boxer analytical prediction is basically an entire power system. There's a "flow" that every person has has which dictates how they move, and Geniuses are capable of resisting analytical prediction by breaking free of "flow" and achieving "freedom" to create their own stylized set of movements. So we know that these feats all have a relation to each other in who resists it and whatnot.
For your feats you haven't really showed me the characters resisting/negating them. For example, where was 13 year old Baki shown to be able to negate Gaia's prediction? When did Orochi neg Pre-Retsu Baki's prediction? On the topic of Pre-Retsu, you couldn't put Pre-Retsu Baki an entire "layer" above 13 year old Baki because they are the same person. Did Pre-Retsu Baki negate his own younger self's prediction? You see what I mean?
Stuff like this is important because without any direct evidence, all of that is just a vague scaling chain.
Like, in the Boxer analytical prediction is basically an entire power system. There's a "flow" that every person has has which dictates how they move, and Geniuses are capable of resisting analytical prediction by breaking free of "flow" and achieving "freedom" to create their own stylized set of movements. So we know that these feats all have a relation to each other in who resists it and whatnot.
For your feats you haven't really showed me the characters resisting/negating them. For example, where was 13 year old Baki shown to be able to negate Gaia's prediction? When did Orochi neg Pre-Retsu Baki's prediction? On the topic of Pre-Retsu, you couldn't put Pre-Retsu Baki an entire "layer" above 13 year old Baki because they are the same person. Did Pre-Retsu Baki negate his own younger self's prediction? You see what I mean?
Stuff like this is important because without any direct evidence, all of that is just a vague scaling chain.
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There is something similar to that in Baki, in which genius fighters can understand the Flow of every fight and dictate it to bring every fight to an end, which gives both a general form of analytical prediction in verse and a form of attack redirection. But besides, we know in which ways Baki characters were capable of resisting the different forms of analytical prediction inverse, and if you want further proof I am glad to give it.
Except I did? I've shown how these characters predict and resist predictions, just because there was two specifical examples in which I didn't give an in-depth explanation, doesn't mean that "I didn't show the characters negating/resisting the predictions". The in-depth explanation of Baki's resistance was that he was fighting without thinking to such a level Gaia couldn't read his Brainwaves, while the explanation for Doppo's resistance is that his technique is so good that Baki with his analytical prediction couldn't read it.
Also, I didn't mean to say that pre-Retsu Baki was a whole layer above his previous self, just that he massively upscales from his previous key, mb
azontr
He/Him- 39,489
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That's a different form of "Flow". The "Flow" in that scan doesn't have anything explicitly to do with analytical skill. The "Flow" of a fight in that specific instant would just be referring to someone leading the movements of a fight with their own. That is even a concept found IRL in which someone can lead another's movements simply by having superior skill.
In The Boxer Flow explicitly allows one to resist prediction from characters that explicitly have it, and provides greater prediction/resistances, which is what makes it a wider "power system" based on analytical skill.
I didn't ask for an in-depth explanation, I asked for you to SHOW me where these things happened lol. In the original message of you explaining the skill chain, you didn't actually show me these characters resisting anything, just saying that they did it. I'm asking for scans.
No scan.
No scan. (Ik you said that you didn't have this one on Imgur but still)
This one doesn't even seem like purely prediction. You said that Doppo bypassed it by erasing his intent, in which case it wouldn't be bypassing Analytical Prediction but bypassing ESP, because being able to sense someone's intent is ESP.
Now before you get it confused, Analytical Prediction via ESP is very much achievable. But if you erase your intent and someone whose prediction relies on the sensing of intent no longer functions, then you just resisted ESP and not prediction. Which wouldn't qualify for a "layer" difference.
For the rest of the skill chain after True Seiken you just didn't provide any evidence or explanation to begin with, so that's also already very iffy.
You're good. It happens sometimes.
If you want me to provide scans for Yu's skill chain I can, I don't want to seem like I'm going "well uhhh you don't have evidence!!!!" while I'm also not generally providing evidence.
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But reading the flow of a fight is not just reading the present state of the fight that isn't reading the flow of anything in the first place. Reading the flow of a fight requires you to understand where it is going to, which is the most straight forward form of analytical prediction there is. And yeah, it's a concept found IRL, so what? That doesn't make it less of an analytical prediction feat, since you can do analytical prediction IRL, although to much lower levels.
I am not really sure how this thing imgur works, so if you wanna make it quicker and you don't mind it, maybe I could add you to discord and send them through there.
Tbh, I'm not really sure if I really believe you there. ESP is the capability of reading energy signatures and the like. Intent isn't even an energy or anything similar, and reading it something that even real life people can achieve to a certain degree. Besides, so far I've seen in several threads, analytical prediction based on intent, like the ones in Kengan, are treated as Analytical prediction and period.
