The Champion of the Underground vs the Champion of Public Fighting, Baki Hamna vs Yu

[azontr]

But reading the flow of a fight is not just reading the present state of the fight that isn't reading the flow of anything in the first place. Reading the flow of a fight requires you to understand where it is going to, which is the most straight forward form of analytical prediction there

Even if, hypothetically, this is Analytical Prediction, it's still not a wider system of it that governs ALL forms of analytical prediction in the verse. Having better understanding of the Flow explicitly allows The Boxer characters to resist analytical prediction and gain greater prediction of their own, the "Flow" demonstrated in your scan does not unless the verse demonstrates that. So the 2 concepts between different series are minutely similar but ultimately completely different in application. A singular mentioning of this concept in a singular scan does not make it a universal thing.

am not really sure how this thing imgur works, so if you wanna make it quicker and you don't mind it, maybe I could add you to discord and send them through there.

Just download the images onto your phone or whatever device your using. If your on phone or tablet, you should be able to hold down on the image and the option to download the image should show up. If your on computer, then right-click the image and the option to save the image should also appear.

Once the image is downloaded imgur will have an option for you to upload it.

Tbh, I'm not really sure if I really believe you there. ESP is the capability of reading energy signatures and the like. Intent isn't even an energy or anything similar, and reading it something that even real life people can achieve to a certain degree. Besides, so far I've seen in several threads, analytical prediction based on intent, like the ones in Kengan, are treated as Analytical prediction and period.

I mean whether or not you believe me doesn't really matter, sensing intent is treated as ESP on this forum.

The Extrasensory Perception page even lists Precognition as a method through which the ability can be utilized. So like, you don't HAVE to believe me if you don't want to, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but like that's just how it is.

also using Kengan as an example is not a good idea because all of our Kengan pages are hot ass

 

[First_Witch]

You can copy and paste images into Imgur, you dont have to download them at all. Drag and drop works as well

 

[azontr]

You can turn into a pile of melted viscera, you don't have to be alive at all.

 

[Epiccheev]

Boomers don't know how to use image hosting sites smh

 

[First_Witch]

You can turn into a pile of melted viscera, you don't have to be alive at all.

That requires preptime. The rules did not grant us that.

 

[First_Witch]

Boomers don't know how to use image hosting sites smh

How dare you utter that word in my presence.

 

[Recon1511]

That requires preptime. The rules did not grant us that.

can i help? i brought a spoon

 

[Mr_Lumbago]

Even if, hypothetically, this is Analytical Prediction, it's still not a wider system of it that governs ALL forms of analytical prediction in the verse. Having better understanding of the Flow explicitly allows The Boxer characters to resist analytical prediction and gain greater prediction of their own, the "Flow" demonstrated in your scan does not unless the verse demonstrates that. So the 2 concepts between different series are minutely similar but ultimately completely different in application. A singular mentioning of this concept in a singular scan does not make it a universal thing.

I mean it kinda is since pretty much every character in the main cast is stated to have this analytical prediction to a higher or lesser degree, but besides, I don't see why it's necessary to have a power system of precog in order to make a chain when there is already direct relationships that allow us to formulate a skill chain without an underlying general powersystem.

Just download the images onto your phone or whatever device your using. If your on phone or tablet, you should be able to hold down on the image and the option to download the image should show up. If your on computer, then right-click the image and the option to save the image should also appear.

Once the image is downloaded imgur will have an option for you to upload it.

You can copy and paste images into Imgur, you dont have to download them at all. Drag and drop works as well

Thank you very much, will do as soon as possible.

I mean whether or not you believe me doesn't really matter, sensing intent is treated as ESP on this forum.

The Extrasensory Perception page even lists Precognition as a method through which the ability can be utilized. So like, you don't HAVE to believe me if you don't want to, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but like that's just how it is.

I mean, just cause one use of ESP is precog, doesn't mean that you can instantly qualify any precog as ESP, and so far we have discussed, I don't see intent as something that requires ESP to be read.

also using Kengan as an example is not a good idea because all of our Kengan pages are hot ass

I wasn't even talking about the profiles, I saw that in a post from a guy called Ginsama or something, who did a pretty good Analytical prediction chain.

 

[Mr_Lumbago]

Ok it seems like my dumbass didn't realize that Baki resisting Gaia's AP was in his profile lmao.

(Gaia, who can read people's minds due to Rumination, cannot read Baki's attacks because he is fighting without thinking)

 

[Mr_Lumbago]

Ok, here I have the thing for Doppo.

 

[azontr]

mean it kinda is since pretty much every character in the main cast is stated to have this analytical prediction to a higher or lesser degree, but besides, I don't see why it's necessary to have a power system of precog in order to make a chain when there is already direct relationships that allow us to formulate a skill chain without an underlying general powersystem.

It's not strictly necessary, nor did I ever paint it as necessary. My original post on the matter is as follows:

Like, in the Boxer analytical prediction is basically an entire power system. There's a "flow" that every person has has which dictates how they move, and Geniuses are capable of resisting analytical prediction by breaking free of "flow" and achieving "freedom" to create their own stylized set of movements. So we know that these feats all have a relation to each other in who resists it and whatnot.

I only ever said that having such a system paints it as obvious as to why these characters resist what they do. Which was in relation to me just asking you for scans.

The debate just happened to linger on this topic for a while, but it's not a strict requirement if you have evidence of characters resisting stuff.

mean, just cause one use of ESP is precog, doesn't mean that you can instantly qualify any precog as ESP, and so far we have discussed, I don't see intent as something that requires ESP to be read.

Intent sensing is listed as ESP on actual pages, and is generally accepted to be ESP. INCLUDING Goki's own page, just checked lol.

Ok it seems like my dumbass didn't realize that Baki resisting Gaia's AP was in his profile lmao.

Doesn't this just seem like a weakness of Gaia's Prediction that he can't predict people who aren't thinking, because his prediction works based on thought?

I wouldn't give someone who Yu cannot predict analytical prediction resistance because they don't have muscles (hence can't have muscle movements read) lol. It just seems like Gaia has a weakness to characters who use Instinctive Reactions against him.

Ok, here I have the thing for Doppo.

This one seems valid.

 

[Mr_Lumbago]

I only ever said that having such a system paints it as obvious as to why these characters resist what they do. Which was in relation to me just asking you for scans.

The debate just happened to linger on this topic for a while, but it's not a strict requirement if you have evidence of characters resisting stuff.

Oh, alr, that's good to know.

Intent sensing is listed as ESP on actual pages, and is generally accepted to be ESP. INCLUDING Goki's own page, just checked lol.

That's kinda strange, ngl, cause reading the page for ESP, intent doesn't seem to fit at all. Anyways it's not like I'm going to do a crt or anything.

Doesn't this just seem like a weakness of Gaia's Prediction that he can't predict people who aren't thinking, because his prediction works based on thought?

I wouldn't give someone who Yu cannot predict analytical prediction resistance because they don't have muscles (hence can't have muscle movements read) lol. It just seems like Gaia has a weakness to characters who use Instinctive Reactions against him.

Nah, it's most likely a feat for Baki rather than a weakness for Gaia. Remember that Gaia's AP is a lesser form of Musashi's which works by literally reading the brainwaves sent by the brain. Even if you have some strong IR, your brain will still send brainwaves to the muscles which Gaia can sense. Despite this, Baki's IR worked to such a level that Gaia couldn't predict him at all. That sounds more like a feat than a Weakness.

 

[azontr]

Nah, it's most likely a feat for Baki rather than a weakness for Gaia. Remember that Gaia's AP is a lesser form of Musashi's which works by literally reading the brainwaves sent by the brain. Even if you have some strong IR, your brain will still send brainwaves to the muscles which Gaia can sense. Despite this, Baki's IR worked to such a level that Gaia couldn't predict him at all. That sounds more like a feat than a Weakness.

If it's a lesser form of Musashi's ability then I don't see why it would scale to Musashi's application of it. The scans you sent on Gaia's ability don't mention brain wave reading, so without explicit evidence I wouldn't consider Gaia's rumination being a "lesser form" of Musashi's brain wave sensing evidence that Gaia should be able to do what Musashi does with it.

It can be the same general concept/ability but superior users can have different, greater applications of it. Gaia and Musashi use the same ability, he can just do much more with it than Gaia can because he's clearly much more proficient.

 

[Mr_Lumbago]

If it's a lesser form of Musashi's ability then I don't see why it would scale to Musashi's application of it. The scans you sent on Gaia's ability don't mention brain wave reading, so without explicit evidence I wouldn't consider Gaia's rumination being a "lesser form" of Musashi's brain wave sensing evidence that Gaia should be able to do what Musashi does with it.

Ok, lemme get some scans. Here is Gaia being stated directly stated to have the same capability than Musashi, and to further solidify the point we know that Precog over the brainwaves was not something exclusive of Musashi, but every single swordsman had to acquire that capability and it was something normal. Gaia just happens to be the only modern man capable of this, besides Baki and Yujiro (this is in Son of Ogre, so it doesn't scale to this Key). So yeah, there is enough evidence that Gaia is doing the same thing as Musashi, just that to a lesser degree.

It can be the same general concept/ability but superior users can have different, greater applications of it. Gaia and Musashi use the same ability, he can just do much more with it than Gaia can because he's clearly much more proficient.

Yeah, he can do greater things with it, like sending fake brainwaves as a bait, but reading the brainwaves is not part of those things cause it was the general application.

 

[azontr]

Ok, lemme get some scans. Here is Gaia being stated directly stated to have the same capability than Musashi, and to further solidify the point we know that Precog over the brainwaves was not something exclusive of Musashi, but every single swordsman had to acquire that capability and it was something normal. Gaia just happens to be the only modern man capable of this, besides Baki and Yujiro (this is in Son of Ogre, so it doesn't scale to this Key). So yeah, there is enough evidence that Gaia is doing the same thing as Musashi, just that to a lesser degree.

l think you're taking these statements way to literally to be fr.

It's not saying that Gaia is literally reading brain waves. Just that his prediction is so good that it's beyond just reading the next move, that can be gathered from "experience". It's just really good prediction that allows one to interpret one's first attack, unlike Motobe's reading that can only be used via experience.

This is textbook definition of hyperbole.

 

[Mr_Lumbago]

l think you're taking these statements way to literally to be fr.

It's not saying that Gaia is literally reading brain waves. Just that his prediction is so good that it's beyond just reading the next move, that can be gathered from "experience". It's just really good prediction that allows one to interpret one's first attack, unlike Motobe's reading that can only be used via experience.

This is textbook definition of hyperbole.

It's most definitely not hyperbole. We are told that swordsmen like Musashi literally read the brainwaves time and time again, and then we are told that Gaia has this same capability, which is consistent with previous feats he has. There is nothing that even remotely looks like an hyperbole.

Also, the interpretation that "it's just really good prediction that is beyond just reading the next move" doesn't hold at all since we have evidence that it goes beyond that, as I've explained through the whole discussion.

 

[azontr]

It's most definitely not hyperbole. We are told that swordsmen like Musashi literally read the brainwaves time and time again, and then we are told that Gaia has this same capability, which is consistent with previous feats he has. There is nothing that even remotely looks like an hyperbole.

Also, the interpretation that "it's just really good prediction that is beyond just reading the next move" doesn't hold at all since we have evidence that it goes beyond that, as I've explained through the whole discussion.

Then swordsmen like Musashi can do that. That doesn't mean GAIA can do that. You keep bringing up Musashi but that doesn't hold any weight towards Gaia because Gaia is not Musashi, and is explicitly lesser than Musashi. "Your prediction is so good that it can reach into the brain" is a hyperbolic statement without any other evidence to support it, coming specifically from feats or statements that scale TO Gaia.

And even if you showed me scans of Musashi being able to do it, it wouldn't matter because what Musashi can do does not scale to Gaia.

 

[Mr_Lumbago]

Then swordsmen like Musashi can do that. That doesn't mean GAIA can do that. You keep bringing up Musashi but that doesn't hold any weight towards Gaia because Gaia is not Musashi, and is explicitly lesser than Musashi. "Your prediction is so good that it can reach into the brain" is a hyperbolic statement without any other evidence to support it, coming specifically from feats or statements that scale TO Gaia.

And even if you showed me scans of Musashi being able to do it, it wouldn't matter because what Musashi can do does not scale to Gaia.

Again, what Musashi does is not something that is exclusive to Musashi, it's something every single swordsman can do. The fact that Gaia is straight up compared to these swordsman, who they all can read the brainwaves, is sufficient proof that Gaia has the same capabilities as the swordsmen in Musashi's era. And that claim does have evidence that supports it, the same statements from Grappler Baki, the ones you agreed with, that explicitly say that Gaia can read the mind.

 

[azontr]

I don't agree with the 2nd statement either. All swordsmen of Musashi's Era possessing Foresight is clear enough, but that being on the potency of reading "brain waves" is not explicit. The image of a brain showing up is not explicit evidence that it works with such a mechanic.

Kengan has an almost identical concept but this isn't listed as "brain wave reading" because they can read the Inception of Intent. This is just good Foresight.

 

[Mr_Lumbago]

I don't agree with the 2nd statement either. All swordsmen of Musashi's Era possessing Foresight is clear enough, but that being on the potency of reading "brain waves" is not explicit. The image of a brain showing up is not explicit evidence that it works with such a mechanic.

Except it is? Like, it's not hard to connect the dots. Besides I could do the exact same thing with Yu, just cause we see certain brain cells is not explicit evidence that his analytical prediction works by reading brainwaves.

Also, Baki was saying they posessed foresight of that same level as Musashi, and Motobe explicitly said that reading of that level was the standard, so the image of the brain is not the only evidence they read brainwaves.

Kengan has an almost identical concept but this isn't listed as "brain wave reading" because they can read the Inception of Intent. This is just good Foresight.

No, reading what the opponent intends to do is not the same as reading the brainwaves he sends to his muscles.

 

[azontr]

Except it is? Like, it's not hard to connect the dots. Besides I could do the exact same thing with Yu, just cause we see certain brain cells is not explicit evidence that his analytical prediction works by reading brainwaves.

You couldn't make that argument actually lmao. Because with Yu, it has greater context, as the ability is very, VERY explicitly tied to the bodily functions down to such a level. The ability is explained in depth to be specifically what's shown.

Comparing "This technique is meant to bestow control over the body and superhuman cognitive ability, so here's a few images showing how far down that works" VS "You can read much better than my experience-based reading, it's almost like you're seeing into the brain..." is legitimately wild. Just because it shows a few images of a brain doesn't make a hyperbole NOT a hyperbole.

No, reading what the opponent intends to do is not the same as reading the brainwaves he sends to his muscles.

Yeah but luckily that's not what's happening, so I'm good.

 

[azontr]

We're clearly not gonna agree on this so to avoid a dragged out argument and potentially devolving into insults, I'm gonna leave it at my above post. But my thoughts are that Baki is not at all beating Yu in analytical prediction. A part of his chain doesn't even have anything to do with analytical prediction resistance, so if you take that away and simplify it into the terms of layers its:

Gaia<Doppo<Shibukawa<True Seiken Doppo

I didn't include anyone above True Seiken Doppo because I haven't seen scans for them yet. This isn't really comparable to Yu's chain at all, which goes.

Average Boxer analytical prediction < Average Genius < Siha Lee < Baeksan Ryu < Pre-Evolution Jean < Post-Evolution Jean <<< Yu.

So in terms of analytical prediction Yu has an explicit advantage. But luckily Analytical Prediction isn't all there is to a fight and Baki has an extremely wide variety of techniques and amps, apparently, so the discussion should move on to what are Baki's options, in my opinion.

Anyone can read the above argument me and @Mr_Lumbago had above and freely form their opinion on it.

 

[Mr_Lumbago]

You couldn't make that argument actually lmao. Because with Yu, it has greater context, as the ability is very, VERY explicitly tied to the bodily functions down to such a level. The ability is explained in depth to be specifically what's shown.

And in Baki there isn't? Those images are always, in every single example, used to express the character's own bodily function, not from other ones he is reading, except in Siha's case, so I could make that argument.

Comparing "This technique is meant to bestow control over the body and superhuman cognitive ability, so here's a few images showing how far down that works" VS "You can read much better than my experience-based reading, it's almost like you're seeing into the brain..." is legitimately wild. Just because it shows a few images of a brain doesn't make a hyperbole NOT a hyperbole.

Bruh, again, it's explictly stated it does read the brainwaves. You can't simply ignore such a thing.

 

[azontr]

And in Baki there isn't? Those images are always, in every single example, used to express the character's own bodily function, not from other ones he is reading, except in Siha's case, so I could make that argument.

No you couldn't, because Jean's perception extends to viewing outside bodily functions as well, which he trains via meditation.

Bruh, again, it's explictly stated it does read the brainwaves. You can't simply ignore such a thing.

That's literally NOT what it says. It says:

"What I do is read. It's experience-born, simple reading. But I can't reach... into the brain."

It doesn't say he's reading into the brain waves, it just compares it to that. You can have an ability that makes it SEEM like you're doing one thing but you're not actually doing it. Itadori Yuji from JJK seems like he can utilize Black Flash at will to the outside viewpoint, but he isn't actually utilizing Black Flash at will, for example. It's the very definition of a hype statement.

Your argument literally boils down to saying "nuh uh" at this point, my guy.

 

[Mr_Lumbago]

We're clearly not gonna agree on this so to avoid a dragged out argument and potentially devolving into insults, I'm gonna leave it at my above post. But my thoughts are that Baki is not at all beating Yu in analytical prediction. A part of his chain doesn't even have anything to do with analytical prediction resistance, so if you take that away and simplify it into the terms of layers its:

Gaia<Doppo<Shibukawa<True Seiken Doppo

I didn't include anyone above True Seiken Doppo because I haven't seen scans. This isn't really comparable to Yu's chain at all, which goes.

Average Boxer analytical prediction < Average Genius < Siha Lee < Baeksan Ryu < Pre-Evolution Jean < Post-Evolution Jean <<< Yu.

That's simply a part of the chain, and the lowest level is equal to the highest form of analytical prediction in the boxer, but ok.

But luckily Analytical Prediction isn't all there is to a fight and Baki has an extremely wide variety of techniques and amps, apparently, so the discussion should move on to what are Baki's options, in my opinion.

Ok, let's discuss that too. As I said earlier, he has several amps that should give Baki the stat's advantage and turn the reaction speed advantage of Yu into pretty much null. Then he has Aiki, which allows him to redirect attacks with the opponents force + his own force, which he can spam. He also should have the benda whip, since Yujiro teached it to Baki as a kid, which is durability negation that can induce death.

 

[azontr]

That's simply a part of the chain, and the lowest level is equal to the highest form of analytical prediction in the boxer, but ok

I mean tbf I only really excluded what I disagreed with from the chain, hence its shorter. Which kinda breaks the chain down, because:

If Baki doesn't scale above Gaia, then Doppo doesn't scale above Baki (or his resistance/prediction, ik at that point in the story Doppo is probably much more skilled in other ways), and if Doppo doesn't scale above Baki then Shibukawa's feat of out-predicting Doppo isn't very impressive because then it's just him predicting feints. And since we've established that Seiken Doppo does not have a resistance to analytical prediction via intent erasure, then Doppo doesn't scale above Shibukawa, who now only has a basic feint-prediction feat.

Meaning the only actually impressive thing there is Gaia, who Baki doesn't scale to because he exploited a weakness in Gaia's Prediction, so... yeah lol. I only even kept a chain because I wanted to keep things simple.

Ok, let's discuss that too. As I said earlier, he has several amps that should give Baki the stat's advantage and turn the reaction speed advantage of Yu into pretty much null. Then he has Aiki, which allows him to redirect attacks with the opponents force + his own force, which he can spam. He also should have the benda whip, since Yujiro teached it to Baki as a kid, which is durability negation that can induce death.

1. What are these amps? Could you give a few examples on them, and how much they boost Baki? Yu himself has his own speed amp which continuously gets faster, and he can also get faster through adaptation, so he doesn't lack in that department, but I'm sure Baki has more.

2. How does Aiki work?

3. Does he use Benda Whip a lot?

 

[Mr_Lumbago]

No you couldn't, because Jean's perception extends to viewing outside bodily functions as well, which he trains via meditation.

He has shown to do that with muscle fibers only, which is not that good as analytical prediction.

That's literally NOT what it says. It says:

"What I do is read. It's experience-born, simple reading. But I can't reach... into the brain."

That's when he talks about Gaia. When he talks about the swordsmen, which he explicitly compares with Gaia, he says "I Imagine 'reading matches' of that level (the level of Musashi) must have been standard between strong fighters" I will send it again, last scan.

It doesn't say he's reading into the brain waves, it just compares it to that. You can have an ability that makes it SEEM like you're doing one thing but you're not actually doing it. Itadori Yuji from JJK seems like he can utilize Black Flash at will to the outside viewpoint, but he isn't actually utilizing Black Flash at will, for example. It's the very definition of a hype statement.

Again, it's literally reading the brainwaves, there is no hyperbole or hype

Your argument literally boils down to saying "nuh uh" at this point, my guy.

I am the one saying Nuh uh? That's crazy

 

[azontr]

He has shown to do that with muscle fibers only, which is not that good as analytical prediction.

There's no reason that would only scale to muscle fibers, and to assume as such would require greater assumptions on your part, rather than the much lesser assumption that Jean's senses training would encompass all of his sensory abilities.

That's when he talks about Gaia. When he talks about the swordsmen, which he explicitly compares with Gaia, he says "I Imagine 'reading matches' of that level (the level of Musashi) must have been standard between strong fighters" I will send it again, last scan.

I've read the scan several times. Resending it doesn't make your argument stronger. It's the same scan I already debunked, so resending it doesn't really help.

Again, it's literally reading the brainwaves, there is no hyperbole or hype

Bro, you literally didn't send this scan UNTIL NOW. Why are you acting like I was ignoring something you NEVER PROVIDED? Like bro.

Why would this person scale to Gaia or Musashi? Is he someone from Musashi's Era?

am the one saying Nuh uh? That's crazy

You literally just repeating shit and saying you're right which is the equivalent of a nuh uh Lil homie.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Can't Yu dura neg Baki in the heart?

 

[azontr]

Can't Yu dura neg Baki in the heart?

He can.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

He can.

Yu in this key is fully bloodlusted, He literally goes for the kill here seen in his fight against J and according to his standard tactics

 

[azontr]

Knowing Baki verse Baki has probably endured getting his heart exploded or something.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Knowing Baki verse Baki has probably endured getting his heart exploded or something.

No he did not, To my knowledge he didn't even once recieve an attack to the heart

 

[XxZetsuxX]

I'm gonna vote for Yu solely for this reason alone

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Plus theres the monster stance to amp his attack speed to blitz someone comparable to him in speed seen with Jean Pierre

 

[azontr]

I would hold off on a concrete vote. Not all of Baki's arsenal has been elaborated on.

 

[XxZetsuxX]

Baki in this key doesn't have mastery of his demon back and can't activate at will (Correct me if i'm wrong)

Baki instinctive action only works if he stops thinking and doesn't make him dodge attacks faster than him

 

[XxZetsuxX]

And if i'm not mistaken (again), Baki doesn't have some of his amps like cockroach dash, 0,5 second attack which are crucial in this match up

 

[XxZetsuxX]

And hand pocket

 

[azontr]

Dude you dont have to post multiple times. Please collect your thoughts into a singular post before posting, thank you. Multi-posting is generally frowned upon.