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RipCan't think of any examples of it, naw
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The Champion of the Underground vs the Champion of Public Fighting, Baki Hamna vs Yu
- Thread starter The_man_with_the_Midas_touch
- Start date
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One can do a counter while in a similar stance, although it's very hard. Besides a counter is not something Baki can't block.
Yu can't change directions infinitely, or does he? And the more he attacks the more likely it is for Baki to read the punches correctly and to send Yu flying, and by that point is pretty much a win for Baki.
Ok, but as I said earlier, if Baki resists one punch, which he can as I explained earlier, he will copy the technique and adapt it.
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I believe he did take Kureha's dura neg in the chest? I should reread the fight rq
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that attack was without durab neg tho, Yu went for the same punch which nuked any world champion and it was without durab neg all the time (which even one shotted Viktor) but failed against Aaron, that scene was meant to show how durable Aaron is, at least that's how I interpret it.
Also talking about his durab neg, when he was using it against a punching bag he could pulverize a decent amount of the sand in it (or whatever there is in) which is a Wall Level attack inside your body basically, which would nuke anything it,
I think Aaron's organs didn't get nuked because of his muscles, at the end Yu's durab neg is a shock wave which goes from the punch to inside the body, the fact it has to bypass Aaron's large and dense muscles actually would reduce the shock wave,
I don't think Baki can tank it
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I’m just saying Aaron didn’t get one shotted 
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- Thread starter
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Considering the attack Directly targets the water within the body, and was used directly on the chest, It more then likely did at least impact the heart, since it (I think) has the highest concentration of liquid in that area outside the lungs.
This attack was done by the same guy that can Casually dura neg organs with his strikes
azontr
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A counter is something anyone can block, doing it from basically point-blank range is a different story.
He can change directions until he gets tired and can no longer do so, and considering that the speed and power continuously increases the more he does so, it's actually more likely that Yu will get a hit in as time goes on instead of Baki.
If he resists one punch Yu will just hit him again in the same area lol. Unless Baki can tank the attack with absolutely 0 level of stun or disorientation then Yu will just keep attacking him with dura neg punches until he goes down, before Baki actually gets the chance to utilize the copied technique.
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Baki has dodged point blank attacks that perception blitz him through IR before, and he repeated the feat several times, so I guess he is good.
ok, first and foremost, if you were to repeat the same movement several times it will soon enough become predictable even if you progressively increase the output of power, that's the normal thing. Secondly, and as I say before, Yu getting a hit in isn't an instant win for him while Baki touching Yu is, since it will mean that he will either become completely unable to move or he will be sent flying through the air, which will be a wide opening for Baki to grapple.
That is if Baki doesn't dodge which he might very well do with his IR. Also, taking the hit without getting stunned might be something he is capable of doing, as he can take attacks that make his muscles explode from the inside out without getting stunned.
azontr
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(Quoting both of these arguments at the same time cause my post encompasses both)
Firstly, Baki didn't counter those at point-blank range, while he already had an attack in motion. He let the sword guys blade hit him then immediately countered it, because he was only able to recognize the blade once the attack was completed. The sword guys quick draw is only fast in motion, once it hits Baki it doesn't have that speed and THEN he countered. Hence Baki said "I only recognized the attack once it was finished!" He did the same thing in the next scans, where let the guys fists touch him then countered it. Both of these are much different from countering an attack while you yourself are attacking, because to do that you have to immediately change direction while not losing any power, against a guy whose constantly changing directions. So still impressive feats, but they don't really fit the bill here for what he needs to hit Yu.
Secondly, it's not the "same move", it's an ever-changing series of moves that gets faster the more you chain it, like a combo in a video game. The angles of attack noticeably shift and curve as Yu attacks. If you mean "same attack" as in its a punch, then yeah, Yu is a Boxer, his main weapon is his fists, but it's not the same movement.
1. Having your muscles exploded and having your heart nearly stopped are two entirely different things that cause different effects on the body.
2. Baki was noticeably stunned there? When Hanayama did it he was left shocked and in the next part of the panel he was still frozen in the air. Idk what happened in the panel after this one but in that sequence he was visibly stunned for a few moments.
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You gotta understand that in these feats Baki had his eyes closed, meaning that the only type of sensorial inputs he received were tactile ones. As such, it's only logical he would dodge once he feels the hit touching him. Now, if anything this is even more impressive than dodging at point blank, since he is dodging attacks that had already landed, avoiding the force of the blow and immediately counterattacking targeting his blindspots, which is something obviously far more complex than simply dodging the.
Also the blows only reached to touch Baki superficially, so I don't really believe there was any significant reduction in the speed of those attacks. In fact, we see that the swordsman completed the slash like if he hadn't touched Baki at all.
No I meant the same movement as in if he keeps changing directions. Let's say that he really can do ever-changing series of movements, even then reading at what spots he is targeting to or the general moveset he uses is something that is possible, and that's something Baki could read pretty much instantly with his info analysis and analytical prediction which I'm restraining myself from talking about as you asked. Taking into account this, at least one block is something assured to happen, and in this case, one block is already a wincon for Baki.
1. Just wanted to use it as an example of how potent his pain tolerance is.
2. No, he showed no signs of pain and could continue fighting like nothing.
azontr
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I agree that dodging with only physical sensory information is still very impressive, but I don't see how it's any more impressive than dodging a point-blank attack. Since he's not "dodging" the attacks, he's letting them hit him so he can react accordingly. If anything it would be EASIER to counter an attack that has already connected with you, because uh, it's already connected with you lol. If someone punched me with my eyes closed I'd probably be able to counter them much easier since I now know they are in front of me.
The speed part is fair I was kinda tripping with that one, but the point is that countering an attack that's already touching you and dodging an attack that isn't touching you immediately and also curves in such ways are two different things that would require a different skill.
I mean I don't think Baki and Yu are like, to far apart in terms of skill (though I believe Yu has superior prediction), so I agree that Baki would EVENTUALLY get in a block, of course. Yu isn't going to dance around him the entirety of the fight. But the thing is Yu only needs 1-2 heart or head shots to either incapacitate Baki or straight up kill him. So Baki would of course be able to eventually pull of Aiki against Yu, but by the time he gets a chance Yu would also have been landing his own blows, of which he only needs an incredibly few amount of to basically win. He doesn't have the time to analyze or predict.
Not showing signs of pain and being stunned are two different things. Baki may not have been in PAIN and could keep fighting afterwards but he was clearly staggered from his injury for a moment, hence his face was surprised and he didn't immediately counter Hanayama. It's a time lag that leaves him open to attack, which seems to have been what happened as Hanayama did that and still was grabbing Baki and had him in the air.
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If you were to fight with someone with the eyes closed you would get dogged lmao, you and literally every other person in the world, cause dodging a punch in the exact instant it lands is something pretty much impossible unless you make some previous preparations, like adapting your stance in order to shoulder roll or some shit like that. Doing something like Baki did is impossible even for the top class fighters IRL because dodging attacks with the eyes closed the very instant they impact with you is simply that hard, while countering a point blank attack in normal conditions is something that can be achieved, although it's very hard.
But the thing is that for Yu to land one or two heart shots is something significantly harder than for Baki to block, since first, Baki has this same IR that allows him to dodge hits that had already landed, and because he can do corrections to his stance in order to make it harder for Yu to reach these areas.
Also, you are kind of underestimating how fast is Baki's Analysis. He can pretty much look at you once and know your style, despite your active efforts to hide, and the course of action you plan to take. This is something that is in the first few characters of New Grappler, but since it's just one month after Maximum tournament it might very well apply to this key: He is capable of reading through someone's DNA in order to instantly measure their fighting potential. Basically, just by looking at you, he can know everything about you.
Not sure about it, I kind of interpreted it like Baki was simply impressed by Hanayama's power, but he was not restrained by the injury he received, which makes sense since he could fight without problem.
azontr
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Baki didn't dodge the attacks though. They explicitly made contact with him, he just countered the moment they did make contact because that was the best opportunity for him to do so. DODGING an attack that makes contact with you isn't possible because if it made contact with you, you didn't dodge it lol. There's a difference between fighting with your eyes closed and countering an attack the moment it hits you with your eyes closed, which is something any IRL human can do on instinct. You can react to stuff you can't see IRL the moment it touches you even if you have your eyes closed.
You can't dodge something that lands. If it landed you didn't dodge it. It's called a counter. Which isn't something Yu can't deal with.
Wdym by corrections to his stance?
So... he can know Yu's fighting style? Something he isn't trying to hide? Cool, it's an advantage ig but being able to figure out someone's power or fighting style at a glance ≠ being able to counter all their hits lol.
He also did that prediction stuff against featless fodder, I don't see why it'd work on Yu whose probably a much more adept fighter than either of those people and already resists analytical prediction at that level-
I mean you can interpret it however makes more sense to you, but based on what's shown in the panel it's a far more likely assumption that Baki was just stunned for a few moments by the injury, but kept fighting afterwards with no issue due to his stamina. Like, my cat cuts the shit out of me and it hurts a lot, so I'm stunned for a moment, but that doesn't immobilize me of course and moving fine afterwards is possible.
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All I am hearing is that Baki pages are ass and that I feel for the fool who tries to unass them.
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Literally no human in earth can dodge attacks with the eyes closed the moment it lands, it literally has never happened. Go and fight with someone with the eyes closed and tell me how it went, I assure you that not well. And dismissing Baki's feat as dodging due to that is pretty much appealing to definition, as there is no practical difference between what Baki is doing and dodging besides that limited understanding of what dodging means, do you get what I mean?
How can he counter Baki's IR.
I mean that he can literally change his stance into ones that make it harder for Yu to reach into his heart or head.
He can know his style AND the course of action you plan to take with a glance.
Yu is not resisting info analysis on a DNA level. He used it on featless fodder, but the form he used quite obviously isn't.
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azontr
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Firstly, literally what are you talking about?? Do you even what the term appealing to definition means? To appeal to definition is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone's argument is based, in a problematic manner, on the definition of a certain term as it appears in a dictionary or a similar source. Keyword, PROBLEMATIC MANNER. It's not problematic for me to say if Baki got HIT by something, he didn't DODGE it, because to dodge means to AVOID, aka, NOT GET HIT BY IT? If he got hit by it then attacked once he'd been hit that is a COUNTER, not a DODGE. It's not a ******* appeal to definition to use the basic definitions of words to justify a basic point, like literally what.
Secondly, Baki wasnt fighting with his eyes closed. In every. Single. Instance. You showed, Baki only counters a single attack with his eyes closed via instincts then one shots his opponent with a kick. It's not shown that he fights entire battles with his eyes closed via instincts at all. You're correct that a human can't fight an ENTIRE battle with their eyes closed but it's very much possible for a human to counter a single attack with their eyes closed. If someone attacks you from behind you're going to instinctively react when it makes contact with you, that's just how your body works. Baki is basically just doing that but seemingly on steroids.
By just moving out of the way of his counter?? Again, Baki didn't dodge anything. If the attack hit you, its NOT dodging lmao.
These are two entirely separate things. Baki knowing your style comes from DNA reading, his ability to predict your movements from said information is an entirely different skill in of itself. Knowing their style wouldn't allow him to know what technique in said style they'd use without an entirely isolated form of prediction, which Yu resists.
He's not predicting your moves on the DNA level or smth.
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Yeah I know it's a logical fallacy, I'm saying that the understanding of dodging as "Avoiding getting hitted" is limited, and that depending in the context, other definitions might work better like for example "avoiding receiving external damage" might work, which is exactly what Baki is doing here. That's why I'm saying that appealing to that definition or understanding falls under an appeal to definition, do you get what I mean?
The thing is that even if it is a single hit, a normal human will get the full force straight up to the face without being capable of reacting, and probably get insta KOd, because the most important organ for perceiving the outer world is inactive. If you get hit from behind you will also react only after you receive the full force of the hit, you and everyone else, cause it's something that isn't possible in the first place. There is no singular example of a human doing something even close to what Baki did, which is avoiding the force of the hit immediately once it makes contact.
He is dodging as in he is avoiding the force of the hit. Also how will he dodge an attack to the blindspots if he doesn't have the reaction speed advantage that allows him to do these kind of feats in the first place?
No, but knowing the style, his general movesets, his habits and all of that shit does give him a general idea of where Yu will most likely attack, which will make it much easier for Baki to block and use Aiki. Do you get what I mean?
Nah, no problem. I mean, I'm the same guy who spams racial slurs in the chats of the poor beings I call friends, so who am I to get mad?
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Also, hypothetically what would I have to do to change a lil bit certain profiles, hypothetically ofc.
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CRT
azontr
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(Quoting both these at the same time cause they encompass a few of the same points)
If by "dodging" you mean to "circumvent" the force, then yes, that is what Baki is doing, but if you agree that Baki isn't actually cleanly dodging these attacks but instead simply circumventing the force upon contact to then lead into an attack, that still falls under a counter, which again, Yu can just avoid and then attack by shifting his blow mid-movement.
Baki only has a reaction speed advantage with certain techniques that he has to consciously use. If he doesn't start with those amps the very moment Yu starts attacking Yu will still have the advantage and be able to avoid Baki's attacks to get hits in faster than him. Yu by this point has also been trained to avoid attacks from basically all directions, from varying heights and angles, so he basically does not have blind spots.
I understand that yes, but again, that's already a form of prediction that people an unfathomable amount less skilled than Yu resists. So Yu won't resist the Info Analysis yes, but the prediction that stems from that analysis isn't something that will work on Yu.
Also, just bringing this up because its actually very important when it comes to the argument of Baki's prediction since this is being brought up now... Baki's "resistance to analytical prediction" is listed as a "resistance to telepathy via Instinctive Action". I hadn't actually looked at Baki's profile so I just realized that, only looked at Gaia's profile to see if Rumination was weak to IR, and apparently I was right all along that Baki just exploited a weakness in Rumination to resist it- My intention wasn't to restart an argument but this is actually extremely important, so I figured I'd bring it to your attention.
ANOTHER also, Yu's resistance was also accepted in a CRT, just never applied to profiles. So no I am not being a hypocrite when bringing up what is and isn't on Baki's profile, Yu's stuff is accepted just people are to lazy to list it.
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K, thank you very much
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Well, circumvent does work as a way to describe it. I could agree that Yu could avoid the counter part of the IR, but the dodging element is still an effective way for Baki to avoid the dura neg.
It's in-character for Baki to use his amps as soon as he recognizes his enemies as a threat, like for exapmle, when fighting the Yasha Ape he activated his endorphins and Death Concentration amps as soon as he got slightly pushed. Taking into account that Baki can pretty much instantly gauge him, he would most likely use the amps quickly after the match begins. Also, the thing about the no blindspots is fair.
And that brings us back at the analytical prediction argument. Do you really want to rediscuss this again? If you really want to I could try to make a chain without including Gaia's analytical prediction.
That's more a thing about Baki profiles being ass, if you ask me. I really been looking at the profiles, you have SOO Baki's most potent form of analytical prediction completely missing, Doppo's one being scanless and a lot of the characters who are relevant for the chain not even having a proper profile. Like honestly, I kinda want to do some crts for the verse.
I get it.
azontr
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Yes, but you have to consider that Baki isn't constantly in a state of IR. He has to consciously focus to utilize his instincts on attacks he knew he couldn't have dodged or avoided without it, or to get an instant counter against an opponent. So unless he makes the decision to constantly rely on his instincts against Yu (which, unless he's done that before for an entire fight, seems unlikely) the IR seems to be only a momentary advantage for when Baki DECIDES he needs to use it, in which case that still leaves plenty of opportunities for Yu to successfully dura neg.
If he decides to use his amps straight off the bat against Yu then that would make them mostly equal in reactions at best. Are these amps permanent reaction amps, or do they eventually wear off?
I don't WANT to, but I can't NOT discuss it if Baki's prediction is an argument you're bringing up for him winning. I can't like, not address an argument, if you bring it up.
I mean I don't necessarily disagree with how it's rated rn but yeah it's really best saved for a CRT, so I won't argue that unless it's in an official thread.
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That doesn't seem to be the case honestly, since we have seen him to dodge attacks through instinctive reactions while off guard before, which he did more than once, and it also seems like off guard IR is not uncommon in the verse either. And he was capable of using his IR during the majority of his fight against Gaia, so it's not really unlikely.
Like it depends on the amp. Death Concentration, Endorphins and such don't have any max timeframe and can be used for as long as Baki wants. Mach Punch and Goutaijutsu are individual techniques that don't bring a permanent amp, although they can be spammed.
Yeah, I get that, but ofc the idea is not to pointlessly discuss points that we can not get to an agreement about.
Alright, I will maybe do a crt or something later. Is there anything I have to keep in mind before doing so?
azontr
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That doesn't seem like IR that just seems like Enhanced Senses- On Baki's profile it's already listed that he can basically recognize shit not in his field of view (knew Hanayama was following him despite Hanayama being sneaky and even was able to note him getting closer as time went on) so it's more likely to be an extension of this ability. Not to mention the majority of times he uses IR he has his eyes closed as shown in your own scans, so for him to suddenly utilize it with his eyes open when the norm seems to be his eyes closed would be a weird inconsistency in how the ability is portrayed.
Gaia is fair but Baki's IR via countering and his IR via turning off his thoughts seem to be two separate extensions of the same ability. The fatal difference is that his countering IR is something he's shown he has to actively focus for- Keeping his eyes closed and waiting for the attack to touch his body so that he can then avoid the damage via physical sensory information. The IR that he portrays against Gaia is him moving without thought, and acts without him needing Gaia to touch him, so it seems that while both are IR, the fact they both have different properties that wouldn't equate to each other. It's also noted that the IR portrayed against Gaia is simply muscle memory from extensive training, and it doesn't allow him to instant counter like other times.
So even if, hypothetically you consider the other examples IR, that's still a different extension of the ability than the one Baki uses for counters.
I suppose it depends on what amp he chooses to use. If he uses a technique then it's likely Yu will have the advantage because it's something that needs to be used over and over, but a permanent amp like DC or endorphins would make them even.
Does he opt for technique-based amps or reaction-amps more often?
No, not really. Just try and keep it concise and have scans, and you'll be fine.
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The firt feat is most definitely the same IR as before, as it followed the exact same mechanics (He received the slash of the blade, which he couldn't see, and as soon as he felt it, he circumvented the damage). And you have to take into account that Baki's enhanced senses work by sensing the aura of powerful fighters, which is what allowed Baki to sense Hanayama following him. Another important thing is that Baki, when performing those IR feats was literally training his senses, and that's why he had his eyes closed. It's not like it's necessary for him to have his eyes closed to use IR.
Like, just cause Baki can use his IR for two different things or purposes doesn't mean they are a different technique. Like, to give a dumb example, Goku can use the Kamehameha as an attack, like he normally does, or to propell himself like a rocket in some pretty goofy way. They are two very distinct uses, but that doesn't mean they are not the same ability, nor that they don't share some general characteristics of the technique. Also, iirc that last scan was from before Baki showcased his IR, in which, at that point, he was mentally nerfed because Gaia made him believe that his body was literally against himself.
He usually uses permanent amps first and then utilizes his technique amps when fighting tough opponents. When fighting enemies he knows are fodder he tends to go for only technique amps, like mach punch, or cockroach tackle later on the series, which he doesn't have here.
Alr, thank you very much.
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azontr
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First part is kinda fair, but I don't really see how the Aura part makes sense, because you can be able to both have good general senses (which would have allowed him to sense Hanayama from afar) but also be able to sense the Aura of powerful fighters. They don't necessarily have to be the same thing. And to begin with, if he can sense the Aura of powerful fighters shouldn't he have been able to sense the Aura of the guy behind him as well?
And where does it say he was training his senses specifically? In the part with the sword guy it was painted as though it was a requirement for him to avoid the attack, as that level of focus was required to do so since the attack was so fast.
Either you misinterpreted what I said, or I didn't communicate what I meant properly. I didn't say it was a different technique. I, word for word, said this:
I already know that they are the same ability. I am saying that there are two extensions of said ability, as in, two different forms of it. Like, on the IR page, it lists several ways through which IR can be achieved:
So yes, it can be the same ability but also be used in ways that require different stimuli to take action. One can rely on muscle memory (like the one displayed in Gaia's fight), and another can rely on physical stimuli. Baki has two forms of this, one that relies on muscle memory and one that relies on physical stimuli and focus. The one that relies on physical stimuli is what initiates counterattacks.
The last scan is actually directly after Baki showcases IR. Baki showcases it in chapter 147 of Grappler Baki, where he had regained confidence that his body would never betray him like Gaia said it would, the last panel comes from 148.
Then that should put them equal in reactions, I suppose.
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azontr
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The OP can basically count my vote for Yu High-Diff, at this point. I feel like I have made my stance on who takes the fight abundantly clear over the past posts, though I would like to put immense emphasis on High-Diff in that I think it's an extremely tough fight for Yu.
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So, I read through pretty much the entire thread. Not familiar with either character/verse that much, but I think I'm leaning toward Yu. I think his options are narrowly more reliable. Narrowly. Like 6/10 for Yu, imho.
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It seems more like it's only the latter, cause literally every feat of enhanced senses in the verse is based on sensing the aura of strong fighters as far as I remember. Ofc, he could have sensed Yanagi with that, but reacting to his attack would require instinctive action cause he is not sensing that.
Baki was fighting with several martial artists in this way as a form of training before his fight with Yujiro, who told him that they would fight just a few chapters before, that's how we know that he was doing that as a form of training.
Then we agree on that. What I was trying to argue is that since it's the same ability it should share some general characteristics, like how much time it can be used, which if it is the same then it should be a very significant amount of time.
Then my memory must be betraying me.
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I will vote for Baki Mid-High diff here. It's significantly easier for Baki to block and use Aiki here, than for Yu to use his Dura neg in a vital part like the heart, since Baki has some solid counters for that like his IR. It is not an easy fight tho.
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