The Black Swordsman vs. Yang (Rematch)

[KingNanaya]

Yep, as expected, FRAing arguments that have been thoroughly debunked

I don't feel as though they have been debunked sufficiently

 

[MrKerf]

So again, to sum the arguments up here:

Yang's advantages:

• Possibly higher AP and Durability (4 tons vs above 2 Tons)
• A full body forcefield that can withstand dozens of 4 ton attacks before going down, and would also protect Yang from Kirito's stun attack
• An AP and Dura amp well beyond anything Kirito can withstand
• Possibly significantly more skill and experience (10+ years of formal combat training and fights against people on her skill level)
• Greater physical strength (Class M vs Class 5)
• Experience fighting and beating opponents faster than herself
• Analytical prediction on par with or better than what Kirito has shown
• Better ranged options

Kirito's advantages:

• Healing items and slightly better regen
• Attack speed advantage through skills
• Possibly better practical skill and experience (2 years of almost non-stop fighting against monsters and players alike)
• Analytical prediction on par with or better than what Yang has shown
• Reality Warping

That should be more accurate. ^

It's actually a great argument that some of the things we discussed he significantly upscales from.

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I don't feel as though they have been debunked sufficiently

What arguments for Kirito need to be debunked? No one has presented an argument for him other then 'Hes really super skilled I swear' (despite the clear and massive combat experience disadvantage for him) and 'but he has regen' (despite this not being an issue due to the AP difference) 'but he has AP' (except Yang has AP as well)


All of Kiritos stated win conditions are things Yang has and then some.

 

[KingNanaya]

What arguments for Kirito need to be debunked? No one has presented an argument for him other then 'Hes really super skilled I swear' (despite the clear and massive combat disadvantage for him) and 'but he has regen' (despite this not being an issue due to the AP difference) 'but he has AP' (except Yang has AP as well)


All of Kiritos stated win conditions are things Yang has and then some.

That should be more accurate. ^

It's actually a great argument that some of the things we discussed he significantly upscales from.

 

[azontr]

The REAL Black Swordsman clowns on both these fodder.

 

[Fezzih_007]

That should be more accurate. ^

It's actually a great argument that some of the things we discussed he significantly upscales from.

Lmao, is contraditecd yourself trought.

 

[KingNanaya]

The REAL Black Swordsman clowns on both these fodder.

Agree

 

[CurrySenpai]

The REAL Black Swordsman clowns on both these fodder.

True! Guts solos all of fiction.

 

[Mickey1940]

They already explained his Win Cons to you, twice. They just don't exactly agree with the points you're bringing up but I'll add that Kirito has a way to deal with projectiles with Spinning Shield.

Also, all this mention about Kirito being vastly underskilled or having worse analytical prediction is just vast downplay, it doesn't matter if the enemies he fought were NPCs, and your argument of "they're from a game that means they have to be less skilled by default!" holds no water whatsoever, especially when most of these enemies were unknown past floor 7 or 10.

I don't know how many times I have to say it but in normal PVP skills were not commonly used, I get that you (likely) only watched the anime but the source material which is widely agreed upon takes precedence over the anime rarely showcases Sword Skills in combat as the post motion delay made it a very hefty risk despite granting great Damage Buffs. Kirito just doesn't throw these out willy-nilly he assesses his opponent and their movements, especially if said opponent is human.

Also, I'd like to add that Kirito should be stronger than Yang in AP and speed ironically enough, not enough for a one-shot but Floor 75 Kirito at the end of the game was Level 96 and the boss they currently scale to for High 8-C was Floor 56 and we know that the level margin for bosses was 10 levels higher. So not only is Kirito 40 levels higher than that boss and 30 higher than the margin he's able to survive and block attacks from the 75th floor boss that one-shot some of the Clearers in its boss fight which keep in mind are also vastly higher than the Geocrawler.

1. Having a way to deal with projectiles doesn't mean Kirito can respond in return when he is attacked with projectiles. He STILL gets camped out and he STILLL can't fight back at that range due to lacking projectiles of his own
2. You completely missed our point. He might have fought a large variety of enemies, but 1. Yang has as well, and 2. All of these enemies repeat the same few moves over and over since everything in this game uses a Skill. That's not analytical prediction, that's called being a pro gamer, which doesn't help him against an actual combatant outside of the game
3. The problem with this is that 1. All of the profiles referencing anime feats, 2. Sword Skills are Kirito's only method of dealing damage due to being stronger than regular attacks by default, and even WITH Sword Skills he can't even dent Yang's aura, and 3. Every enemy Kirito has ever fought is either a literal telegraphed computer program or is another player equally as unskilled as he is, considering how every SAO player is literally just a random ass modern-day civilian of Japan. Yang can counter Kirito's dogshit swordplay with her actual martial arts skill, and any Sword Skills he uses will just get him killed from the endlag
4. The issue is that we don't know how the leveling or stats system works in SAO. The literal only stat in the game we have is when Kirito was with Silica, and he had an HP stat of 14500. This doesn't help us. In most RPGs, even though bosses might be lower level, they still have vastly superior stats compared to even max level players. Take Genshin for example. The average built Xiao or Ayaka have about 2k ATK, 800 DEF, and about 14-18k HP at Level 90/90 (I know this cuz I own them both in the game and those are my strongest characters and they both have those stats). Bosses at their same level have over 3000 ATK if not more and millions of HP, but the game is still beatable since every boss is telegraphed and you can memorize their attack patterns plus perfect dodging is a thing. Who's to say that SAO isn't the same way? Maybe SAO players are truly superior to bosses at the same level, or maybe Bosses just have naturally stronger stats. We don't know any of this. Thus, we scale Kirito to be somewhat lower or higher compared to the Floor 56 Boss since, unless we know exactly how the game works, we don't have any other feats to put him at. Not to mention all of this is moot anyways since Yang can just absorb his attacks and outgrow him with Burn

 

[WeeklyBattles]

I don't feel as though they have been debunked sufficiently

Aight, lets go over the points youre FRAing then:

Dawg, this is exactly what I’m talking about. Kirito is much more tactical than this. He was one of the best clearers in Aincrad who helped out with its clearing. He had to be tactical and smart in order to prevent as many casualties as possible, especially given the unknown nature of bosses. He doesn’t run in screaming he tries his best to develop plans and be cunning.

Cool, Kirito has a tactical mindset. So does Yang. Problem is Yang has a decade more experience in the field than Kirito does as well as a decade more of actual combat training, as well as experience fighting people on her own level of skill, something Kirito rarely ever did.

Not even temporary, it’s as long as he has dual blades and since we take characters when they’re at their peak this Kirito would have it the entire battle.

Due to Dual Blades being his default state of speed in this key it would fall under speed equalization, not a speed amping technique, and thus would be a non-factor

and you also provided basically no evidence for your case either stop

Evidence has in fact been provided for the arguments made in favor of Yang. The opposite cannot be said for Kirito as not a single scan for the arguments in his favor have been presented.

its literally not on the profiles, you cannot use this

Yang Xiao Long

Yang Xiao Long is one of the main characters and the fifth character introduced in RWBY. A yellow-haired girl and Ruby Rose's older half-sister, she wields twin shotgun gauntlets called Ember Celica. Easily the most hotheaded member of the group, when she gets very angry or if her hair is...

vsbattles.fandom.com

The evidence is in fact on her profile

 

[Mickey1940]

But It already hitted Grace, you don't need more votes.

except most of the votes for Kirito were blind FRA trains that have been addressed with no rebuttal, so they don't count

 

[WeeklyBattles]

The REAL Black Swordsman clowns on both these fodder.

Reminder that Blake stalemated him in the past

 

[Robo432343]

YANG IS THICC ASF
yang fra

 

[Blackcurrant91]

I still cannot see a single way that Kirito can actually put her down permenantly. Even if you think Kirito doesn't get absolutely stomped here (Which he does) all of Kiritos stated 'win conditions' merely keep him in the match and barely at that. Nothing he has is putting her down permenantly like...anyway this is probably my last comment cause this is just clownworld shit.

 

[azontr]

Reminder that Blake stalemated him in the past

Didn't beat him

 

[Mickey1940]

So again, to sum the arguments up here:

Yang's advantages:

• Higher AP and Durability (4 tons vs above 2 Tons)
• A full body forcefield that can withstand dozens of 4 ton attacks before going down, and would also protect Yang from Kirito's stun attack
• An AP and Dura amp well beyond anything Kirito can withstand
• Significantly more skill and experience (10+ years of formal combat training and fights against people on her skill level vs 2 years of fighting against amateurs while being severely overpowered in his own verse)
• Greater physical strength (Class M vs Class 5)
• Experience fighting and beating opponents faster than herself
• Analytical prediction on par with or better than what Kirito has shown
• Better ranged options

Kirito's advantages:

• Healing items and slightly better regen
• Possible slight speed advantage, though under speed equalization rules it would likely be equalized as it is his base speed in this key

you're forgetting that Kirito gets more chicks

Yang only has Blake, meanwhile Kirito has several people his age plus a 12 year old, the latter of which concerns me wildly

obviously this should be one of Kirito's viable wincons via social influencing

 

[Mickey1940]

True!
This is the part of the thread we have a word from our sponsors anyways… me!

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You just earned a subscriber

 

[MrKerf]

you're forgetting that Kirito gets more chicks

Yang only has Blake, meanwhile Kirito has several people his age plus a 12 year old, the latter of which concerns me wildly

obviously this should be one of Kirito's viable wincons via social influencing

Bruuuuh, that's why I don't like him. Hate harems.

 

[Fezzih_007]

except most of the votes for Kirito were blind FRA trains that have been addressed with no rebuttal, so they don't count

They actually count, yeah, is up to people decide If Yang does really have this advantages, and vote based on that.

My vote still count atleast, since i vote for other reasons.

 

[Mickey1940]

Bruuuuh, that's why I don't like him. Hate harems.

to be fair, Kirito didn't do this on purpose. He's entirely loyal to Asuna. The others kinda just went to him and he has to deal with the consequences

 

[MrKerf]

I still cannot see a single way that Kirito can actually put her down permenantly. Even if you think Kirito doesn't get absolutely stomped here (Which he does) all of Kiritos stated 'win conditions' merely keep him in the match and barely at that. Nothing he has is putting her down permenantly like...anyway this is probably my last comment cause this is just clownworld shit.

Well, he still has Proto-Incarnation should bypass even Aura.

 

[CurrySenpai]

obviously this should be one of Kirito's viable wincons via social influencing

 

[KingNanaya]

except most of the votes for Kirito were blind FRA trains that have been addressed with no rebuttal, so they don't count

kindly don't. I read the arguments, I just don't agree with you.

Aight, lets go over the points youre FRAing then:

if you want to lil bro

Cool, Kirito has a tactical mindset. So does Yang. Problem is Yang has a decade more experience in the field than Kirito does as well as a decade more of actual combat training, as well as experience fighting people on her own level of skill, something Kirito rarely ever did.

opinion

Due to Dual Blades being his default state of speed in this key it would fall under speed equalization, not a speed amping technique, and thus would be a non-factor

someone else will have to confirm this, and if he has no other speed buffs

Evidence has in fact been provided for the arguments made in favor of Yang. The opposite cannot be said for Kirito as not a single scan for the arguments in his favor have been presented.

I never said there weren't arguments. I just said I don't agree with your arguments, thus voting Kirito.

The evidence is in fact on her profile

please point it out to me, as I don't have my glasses with me

 

[WeeklyBattles]

They actually count, yeah, is up to people decide If Yang does really have this advantages, and vote based on that.

My vote still count atleast, since i vote for other reasons.

It really doesnt. Arguments mtter more than votes and blind FRAs based on debunked arguments are allowed to be discounted

 

[Mickey1940]

They actually count, yeah, is up to people decide If Yang does really have this advantages, and vote based on that.

My vote still count atleast, since i vote for other reasons.

you mean you're still voting for Kirito?

List those other reasons then.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Well, he still has Proto-Incarnation should bypass even Aura.

I don't wanna get into this because it would require me explaining the big ass can of worms that incarnation is.

 

[MrKerf]

Oh, that reminds me that I haven't voted yet. I vote Kirito for reasons:

Yang's advantages:

• Possibly higher AP and Durability (4 tons vs above 2 Tons)
• A full body forcefield that can withstand dozens of 4 ton attacks before going down, and would also protect Yang from Kirito's stun attack
• An AP and Dura amp well beyond anything Kirito can withstand
• Possibly significantly more skill and experience (10+ years of formal combat training and fights against people on her skill level)
• Greater physical strength (Class M vs Class 5)
• Experience fighting and beating opponents faster than herself
• Analytical prediction on par with or better than what Kirito has shown
• Better ranged options

Kirito's advantages:

• Healing items and slightly better regen
• Attack speed advantage through skills
• Possibly better practical skill and experience (2 years of almost non-stop fighting against monsters and players alike)
• Possibly higher AP and Durability (Significantly upscales from known values)
• Analytical prediction on par with or better than what Yang has shown
• Reality Warping

And mainly for Reality Warping, since everything else can go either way it seems.

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Well, he still has Proto-Incarnation should bypass even Aura.

"Limited [[Reality Warping]] (via Proto-Incarnation. In times of extreme brain activity reaching to one's Fluctlight, or soul, the user can temporarily enact change on the world to an extent via their willpower or imagination. Usually, it has been displayed to [[Probability Manipulation|enact improbable feats]], such as delaying death, breaking out of system paralysis, bypassing system-enacted rules, and more that can be described as "surpassing the system")"

I dont see how this would let him bypass Aura

 

[CurrySenpai]

It really doesnt. Arguments mtter more than votes and blind FRAs based on debunked arguments are allowed to be discounted

This is literally just a case of you "debunked" the arguments but people simply don't agree or believe your debunks. That's not against the rules, there is no rule that says "People must agree with the opposition if they make a debunk or change their vote if a debunk happens". Stop it with this nonsense.

 

[Mickey1940]

kindly don't. I read the arguments, I just don't agree with you.

if you want to lil bro

opinion

someone else will have to confirm this, and if he has no other speed buffs

I never said there weren't arguments. I just said I don't agree with your arguments, thus voting Kirito.

please point it out to me, as I don't have my glasses with me

1. If someone says something, and then we say things that directly address what the first person says, you can't just say "No" and move on. You need to explain why you disagree. Is there additional information we missed? Is there a flaw in our logic? If you don't tell us any of that, how are we supposed to take you seriously?
2. We've addressed this multiple times. It's not an opinion. Read their profiles
3. Kirito in this key actively uses dual blades all the time, therefore it should be considered his base speed. Even if the speed boost was accepted, I've explained why this wouldn't even matter. Kirito's speed buffs don't boost his movement or reaction speeds, only his attack speed. Meaning Yang can just sit there and take it with her Aura without struggling with striking back. Kirito's AP isn't strong enough for him to take advantage of the speed against Yang
4. Read point 1
5. That's literally not our problem. If you don't have your glasses, even if we point it out you wouldn't be able to see it. Get your glasses or move your face closer to the screen

 

[MrKerf]

I don't wanna get into this because it would require me explaining the big ass can of worms that incarnation is.

I mean, it mostly is self-explanatory even to anime-viewers. It was the thing that helped him win against Heathcliff.

 

[KingNanaya]

It really doesnt. Arguments mtter more than votes and blind FRAs based on debunked arguments are allowed to be discounted

no one is blindly FRA'ing. please don't accuse people of not reading when they have a different opinion

 

[CurrySenpai]

"Limited [[Reality Warping]] (via Proto-Incarnation. In times of extreme brain activity reaching to one's Fluctlight, or soul, the user can temporarily enact change on the world to an extent via their willpower or imagination. Usually, it has been displayed to [[Probability Manipulation|enact improbable feats]], such as delaying death, breaking out of system paralysis, bypassing system-enacted rules, and more that can be described as "surpassing the system")"

I dont see how this would let him bypass Aura

It would, but once again, I'm not explaining Incarnation unless you really really really really want me to.

 

[Mickey1940]

"Limited [[Reality Warping]] (via Proto-Incarnation. In times of extreme brain activity reaching to one's Fluctlight, or soul, the user can temporarily enact change on the world to an extent via their willpower or imagination. Usually, it has been displayed to [[Probability Manipulation|enact improbable feats]], such as delaying death, breaking out of system paralysis, bypassing system-enacted rules, and more that can be described as "surpassing the system")"

I dont see how this would let him bypass Aura

Kirito literally doesn't even have this in Aincrad, he only has this in Alicization

 

[Mickey1940]

This is literally just a case of you "debunked" the arguments but people simply don't agree or believe your debunks. That's not against the rules, there is no rule that says "People must agree with the opposition if they make a debunk or change their vote if a debunk happens". Stop it with this nonsense.

You can't simply not agree with debunks. You need to EXPLAIN why you don't agree in order for the vote to count

 

[CurrySenpai]

Kirito literally doesn't even have this in Aincrad, he only has this in Alicization

He does, Incarnation exists in all VR Worlds it's a constant of them. It's just not as potent if you're not in Alicization or using an STL/Connected the main visualizer.

 

[Mickey1940]

no one is blindly FRA'ing. please don't accuse people of not reading when they have a different opinion

Several other people in this thread are indeed blindly FRAing, hence our arguments

 

[Mickey1940]

He does, Incarnation exists in all VR Worlds it's a constant of them. It's just not as potent if you're not in Alicization or using an STL/Connected the main visualizer.

except Kirito doesn't actively actively abuse it in this key and has never used it until he fights Heathcliff for the second time

 

[WeeklyBattles]

Oh, that reminds me that I haven't voted yet. I vote Kirito for reasons:

And mainly for Reality Warping, since everything else can go either way it seems.

• Attack speed advantage through skills

Which falls under speed equalization as it is his base speed in this key.

• Possibly better practical skill and experience (2 years of almost non-stop fighting against monsters and players alike)

Hell to the **** no. This has already been explained dozens of times in this thread. Kirito is nowhere near Yang in terms of skill or experience.

• Possibly higher AP and Durability (Significantly upscales from known values)

Kirito is currently 2 tons, Yang is 4.34. If you want to argue he has higher AP and Dura then make a calc.

• Analytical prediction on par with or better than what Yang has shown

Bruv really arguing that predicting a plant monster is somehow more impressive than outpredicting the tandem fighting of two of the best assassins on the planet lmao

• Reality Warping

Which wouldnt help him here

 

[Artorimachi_Meteoraft]

Even if we believe the arguments to be thoroughly wrong that doesn't mean nobody can vote based off of them

And that's coming from someone who thinks Yang clowns on Kirito in these keys

we should put yang against some haxless Warhammer characters