The Big Bleach Speed CRT

[AppleLord]

I've offered an alternative explanation. Maybe one of the assassins figured his attack would be faster and tried it out. Maybe he didn't grasp that Tokinada could also reflect his attack. Maybe he just wasn't that clever.

I don't care for this "word association fallacy", you're also associating the phrase "lightning strike" to mean some kind of physical attack. Nothing of the sort concretely happened.

I have a third alternative explanation. The assassin was out of ideas because the target couldn't be dealt with ”fast and smooth.” He couldn't be caught by surprised. (They already tried that and Hikone killed them) And neither did big fire ball explosions worked.

 

[AppleLord]

The guy might just be good at predicting the opponent's attacks, or the opponent might just have straight and easy to predict patterns. If the statement clearly says that is a possibility, you can't just dismiss it because there can be thousands of explanations for it. Anyway that doesn't seem to be the main issue here so I'll digress.

The aristocrat put the bounty on himself. He wouldn't risk his life against people who could use ”faster-than-him attacks against those who trained for assassination missions.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I'm about to get busy here soon so I'll summarize my arguments and counter-arguments for all to see real easy.

Premise: Assassins/Onmitsukido corps are lightning speed.

Argument:

• CFYOW states that the attack is lightning speed.

Counter-Arguments:

• The attack could be ranged.
  • The assassin just witnessed a ranged attack prove ineffective, Soifon comments on how there was already known information that Tokinada can reflect ranged attacks, part of being an assassin is gathering info on your target, meaning they likely tried the range attack to confirm that info. This would make it most likely that the assassin attack with a physical strike.
• Tokinada aim dodged so he isn't necessarily lightning speed.
  • Uhhhhh, my argument doesn't care about how fast Tokinada is, only the assassin's speed. Regardless Tokinada has FTL scaling already so this feat doesn't mean anything for him.
• The author says bounced back.
  • Word association fallacy, this doesn't prove it was a ranged attack. Even if you want to grant the "bounced back" statement, Tokinada could have simply bounced back the lightning as soon as he parried the physical strike.
• The assassins don't know how fast Tokinada is.
  • In verse we have Lieutenants react to beams of light. Which while they aren't inherently light speed, the passive onlooker (like these assassins) would just see someone react to light and think "oh shit they're comparable to light" even if the light isn't actually 3e10cm/s. Out of verse, Tokinada scales to FTL and can move at FTL speeds so it should be obvious to see that he is moving faster than lightning. We also have Tokinada matching Soifon and Yoruichi who logically are faster than the Onmitsukido as they have feats displaying such and are the superiors to the assassins.
• Edit: The assassins can't back scale.
  • We generalize fodder all the time on this site. These assassins are nobodies who stole other nobodies' zanpakutos. Not allowing them to backscale would mean randos were able to surpass Captains in speed, which makes no narrative sense.

Ramifications:

• https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:USklaverei/Yoruichi_oppressing_Onmitsukidō this calc would become valid.

 

[00potato]

Seems good.

 

[Schnee_One]

I agree with Jvando and Damage

 

[Damage3245]

@Arc7Kuroi; there are other issues beyond that like trying to equate this feat to the reaction speed of every member of the Onmitsukido corps and trying to backscale this to some other members of the Onmitsukido corps from 2.5 years ago.

But the big issue is simply that the attack is never suggested to be a physical strike. Sure, you can deduce that maybe it is a physical strike, but trying to use this assumption as the foundation for a bunch of other assumptions to justify the calc is just the flimsiest premise.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Arc7Kuroi; there are other issues beyond that like trying to equate this feat to the reaction speed of every member of the Onmitsukido corps and trying to backscale this to some other members of the Onmitsukido corps from 2.5 years ago.

But the big issue is simply that the attack is never suggested to be a physical strike. Sure, you can deduce that maybe it is a physical strike, but trying to use this assumption as the foundation for a bunch of other assumptions to justify the calc is just the flimsiest premise.

Maybe that's where our disconnect is, here I'm thinking we can go for the most logical assumption when we are presented a gray area, but you're making it sound like if something must be assumed we should reject it. If that's the case, while I disagree with that mindset, site policy is site policy.

 

[AppleLord]

@Arc7Kuroi; there are other issues beyond that like trying to equate this feat to the reaction speed of every member of the Onmitsukido corps and trying to backscale this to some other members of the Onmitsukido corps from 2.5 years ago.

But the big issue is simply that the attack is never suggested to be a physical strike. Sure, you can deduce that maybe it is a physical strike, but trying to use this assumption as the foundation for a bunch of other assumptions to justify the calc is just the flimsiest premise.

Can't we just get the raw version to see if it confirms range or close combat?

 

[AKM sama]

The attack could be ranged.

• The assassin just witnessed a ranged attack prove ineffective, Soifon comments on how there was already known information that Tokinada can reflect ranged attacks, part of being an assassin is gathering info on your target, meaning they likely tried the range attack to confirm that info. This would make it most likely that the assassin attack with a physical strike.

The text says "he of course bounced it back" which is exactly what you're describing here that Tokinada is known for. He is known for bouncing back or reflecting ranged attacks. It is perfectly normal for someone to try a faster ranged attack if one doesn't work. How many times do characters repeat the same things in fiction and fail? This happens all the time. Going by what the text explicitly says, what Tokinada's main shtick is, and how the text frames if as something rather obvious, it appears to me that assuming it as a physical strike involves far more mental gymnastics.

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

Idk why y’all still wasting your time lol. This thread is already decided and so will the next one. Our arguments have gotten us nowhere.

I just wished I didn’t waste like a year of my time revising the verse.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

Btw on what basis is it proved that Assassins are slower than their attack speed ? or does not have the same speed as their attacks ?

 

[Damage3245]

@CloudStrife00T; I'm pretty sure that isn't the default assumption when it comes to cases like this.

If somebody has the ability to create a lightspeed laser for example. Without any other context we can't just assume that character has equal speed to their attack.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

So Madara created the laser. Naruto dodged it. and relatively both fought. So they are light speed. Is that right ?

 

[Damage3245]

So Madara created the laser. Naruto dodged it. and relatively both fought. So they are light speed. Is that right ?

I don't even know what you're trying to say here. You seem to be talking about additional feats that are connected to creating a laser - but I'm just telling you that creating the laser itself without other context does not make your speed equal to that of a laser.

 

[BlackeJan]

So who are the Mods that agree and disagree?

 

[TOAAPRESENCE1]

Idk why y’all still wasting your time lol. This thread is already decided and so will the next one. Our arguments have gotten us nowhere.

I just wished I didn’t waste like a year of my time revising the verse.

Is like I said, the CTR is just being done due to the rules, basically a courtesy.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

I am saying if X (with Lightning speed attacks) attacks Y.

Y gets Lightning speed for dodging it ?

and then if Y attacks X and both are equal in speed they are both lightning timers right ?

 

[CloudStrife00T]

I think before moving forward with these there is something we should be clear about.

I am interested in cosmology since that would help a lot with the calcs and statement.

............

Lets start with.

Physical world and Spiritual world are two parallels from the same source.
Such that Kishi and reishi follow the same principles.

So speed of sound in SS is same as speed of sound in World of living.

Speed of lightning is same in SS and Wol.

Speed of light is same in SS and Wol.

So now that we have a statement for lightning that proves that lightning based on Kido or in SS is same as lightning in Wol or Physical world.

Would it be safe to assume that Light in both worlds travel at the same speed ?

Lets get this out of the way and then we can use kido based calcs and feats to get a speed rating for bleach.

 

[Damage3245]

@CloudStrife; by all means, please open a CRT on this after this topic has been concluded. Right now we're just trying to determine if the speed ratings are fine to update as they currently stand.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

Won't the whole upgrade depend on that ? Since most calcs would change if we know what is what ?

The whole upgrade would be a 100 times easier since there would be quite a few instance based on how many times these kido have been used. Those can be then easily calculated to get a speed.

Or we can just leave this open and first do the CRT. When we have some established and accepted facts and statement then we can continue.

On top of my head I can give an example of Byakurai that Byakuya used. He had to pin a much slower Ichigo to even attack him.

Seeing how that Byakurai would be lightning speed. It shows that Byakuya believes that even a slower and injured ichigo could dodge it. Which would put make him faster than lightning.

So in terms of importance. The new statement effects the whole bleach and how we see it. We can get that over with and then move forward to distinguish the speed.

 

[Damage3245]

If there's a calc that could be made, calc it.

For now though I'd like for us to stay on topic.

 

[BlackeJan]

So since the Mods agree with Damage, what is there left to do?

 

[Tyri456]

Only damage is a calc member, all the staffs seems to agree with him just because yes.

Beside that there are 4 topics that need to be discussed:

1. the calc that are discussed are also accepted by other calc member, damage is actually one calc member against them. I would really like an opinion from other calc group member regarding the Ulquiorra calc, otherwise is better removing the reaction page if we can't use that without a proper explanation given. If another calc member actually disagree, then it can be discarded since it was accepted by a calc member, and I explained how it is correct.

2. We Also have an accepted Ishida calc that is ignored, when he scales a lot under Ichigo. So it need to be discussed.

3. We have the limiter argument, since that Orihime feat would scale to the 20% captains, the most fodder reacted to Mach 7. And the limiter removal increase also the speed As already proved.

4. And we have the lightning speed argument, since lightning speed isnt' enough, the narrator repeated lightning 2 times, in a context of speed, he said that was fast enough to react to lightning meaning that he was highlithing the speed of the lightning, otherwise what is the point to invole lightning in first place.

Our lightning standard are pretty low, it is not light speed, also lightning in bleach flow trough conduct material and shock people (properties from lightning speed page). The name itself include lightning of that Kido, that is more than enough, there is literally nothing to prove it does not move at that speed, when he act like that and it is called like that.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

To listen to people who are not mods. Or are you saying that only mods have the right to speak ?

 

[Damage3245]

@Tyri456;

1) Sure, invite other calc group members if you'd like.

2) I have some reasons for why that Uryu calc may not be suitable for use. I'll get to them once we reach that topic.

3) This would need to be elaborated on to decide who exactly would scale.

4) I'm not sure what you mean by this. I don't think anyone was arguing specifically against the attack being lightning speed or Tokinada possibly reacting to the speed of lightning.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

Fine then lets start with the first one.

 

[Damage3245]

Fine then lets start with the first one.

We should resolve the Yoruichi calc first since that's what we're currently discussing - unless it has been rejected now, and we can move on?

 

[Tyri456]

I would like to start with point 3. It is the easiest, hopefully.


You are against ichigo scaling to mach 36?

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

We should resolve the Yoruichi calc first since that's what we're currently discussing - unless it has been rejected now, and we can move on?

Myself, Zoro, Cloud, TOAA, Apple, Yar, Potato, Sigurd, Tyri, and USklaverei support the Yoruichi calc. Two other calc members commented on the original calc blog post that the calc was fine, noting that as long as the interpretation holds.

Damage, DDM, AKM, Jvando, Duedate, Shadow, Schnee, Rocker, and Matthew do not. Albeit all Schnee and Matthew have contributed was "I agree with Damage" and I don't remember what DDM has contributed. Also, Shadow and Matthew have not weighed in on the novel statement but I'll assume they'd side with Damage.

Also, should be noted that the side for the calc has presented a higher preponderance of evidence and as attacked every claim of the opposing side. Meanwhile, the opposing side cannot say the same.

So that's majority in favor of the calc, but all staff are not in favor. The supporting calc side has overwhelming support from non-staff and the opposing calc side has overwhelming support from staff. So is it resolved, technically no, do you have staff support to resolve and disregard, yes.

I've begun to stop caring, so I say pop off Staff Member Damage.

 

[Rocker1189]

Also, should be noted that the side for the calc has presented a higher preponderance of evidence and as attacked every claim of the opposing side. Meanwhile, the opposing side cannot say the same.

Well that is very clearly a non biased outlook on this.

As for what I agree with I dont personally mind whether we go with the lighting speed for tokinada. The only issue is whather we should accept for all the ninja attacks. Because I dont think that is very clear.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Well that is very clearly a non biased outlook on this.

I speak for the totality of the thread, it's not an opinion, I've provided more raw evidence in terms of scans, quotes, etc etc, than anyone else.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

As for what I agree with I dont personally mind whether we go with the lighting speed for tokinada. The only issue is whather we should accept for all the ninja attacks. Because I dont think that is very clear.

Tokinada already scales to FTL, so the only argument is if the assassins are all lightning speed.

 

[AppleLord]

@Damage can you post a link to the sandbox calcs again? I want to check something.

 

[Damage3245]

@Damage can you post a link to the sandbox calcs again? I want to check something.

Here is the link.

 

[AppleLord]

Here is the link.

Where did the Hypersonic calc came from? The profiles have this one.

 

[Damage3245]

Where did the Hypersonic calc came from? The profiles have this one.

This re-calc.

 

[AppleLord]

This re-calc.

Orihime "moving" backwards in responds to Uryu calling out to her is kind of "aim-dodge" mechanic and can't be used to scale her reaction speed. Mmm. What other calcs are you currently working on?

 

[Damage3245]

Orihime "moving" backwards in responds to Uryu calling out to her is kind of "aim-dodge" mechanic and can't be used to scale her reaction speed. Mmm. What other calcs are you currently working on?

I'll be doing a re-read of Post-Timeskip Bleach soon to look for any potential speed calcs, but for the moment I've got nothing else in the works for Pre-Timeskip.

 

[USklaverei]

Everyone above Renji must be High Hypersonic because of Gentei Kaijo

The thread has dragged on for so long because it is a controversial topic affecting the entire verse (almost).

I've put together a blog post listing all of what the current ratings and justifications should be using the accepted calcs we have to work with.

I think we should update the profiles and verse page to match what we currently have listed there.

 

[AppleLord]

I'll be doing a re-read of Post-Timeskip Bleach soon to look for any potential speed calcs, but for the moment I've got nothing else in the works for Pre-Timeskip.

What about the accepted multipliers? What are you going to do about that scaling?