The Big Bleach Speed CRT

[Rocker1189]

Awesome so you concede to the Negacion argument. I agree there's no need for us to talk anymore.

I am not conceding but if you want to think that sure.

 

[Damage3245]

If this has been discussed and rejected, I don't see why this is being discussed again if there is no new info about it.

Anyway, why is this thread so long? What is going on? Is the stuff in the OP not resolved yet?

The thread has dragged on for so long because it is a controversial topic affecting the entire verse (almost).

I've put together a blog post listing all of what the current ratings and justifications should be using the accepted calcs we have to work with.

I think we should update the profiles and verse page to match what we currently have listed there.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

If this has been discussed and rejected, I don't see why this is being discussed again if there is no new info about it.

I'm not debating if we should treat Negacion as lightspeed on this site

can you read?

I am not conceding but if you want to think that sure.

Yeah you are.

The thread has dragged on for so long because it is a controversial topic affecting the entire verse (almost).

I'd say it's dragged on due to staff opposition, as there isn't much opposition from the normal members who have been frequently participating in this thread.

 

[Rocker1189]

True. I highly doubt anyone is serious about cero and negacion being LS.

Our argument was debunked based on that Author might think differently.
So we are saying if we are going to accept what author thinks then these things should be light speed.

Again you are not understanding me.

I am saying you dont use the calcs on the wiki to prove a point. You use the verse to put stuff on the wiki. You dont use an FTL calc to prove someone is FTL, you use the verse and its feats to show FTL.

 

[AppleLord]

Guys - Negacion has already been discussed to death and rejected in the past. Let's leave that whole thing for another CRT in the future if we must and get back on topic.

We didn't have the novels information that confirmed ”magical” and ”real” come from the same source. ”Magical” spiritrons even existed before atoms of kishi were created by the Soul King.

 

[AKM sama]

I've put together a blog post listing all of what the current ratings and justifications should be using the accepted calcs we have to work with.

I think we should update the profiles and verse page to match what we currently have listed there.

That seems fair to me. Thanks for the help.

 

[Rocker1189]

Yeah you are.

Again I am not. I am just not going to continue a constantly argued and rejected point. If you want to argue negacion being lightspeed in another thread, be my guest I really do not care.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

you use the verse and its feats to show FTL.

Yoruichi is comparable to "in verse" beams of light.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Again I am not. I am just not going to continue a constantly argued and rejected point. If you want to argue negacion being lightspeed in another thread, be my guest I really do not care.

Mans can't read, I specifically said that I'm not arguing for a LS Negacion on this site, but in verse as you like to say Yoruichi is comparable to light.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

Statement for lightspeed doesn't come from wiki. It comes from verse. Wiki doesn't accept that.
So if you are asking for a proof then according to the verse vice cap are light speed and Yoruichi is faster then them.

So she is FTL.
Is that enough of the proof ? Not touching wiki at all ?

 

[BlackeJan]

Imma be honest, but u guys are just wasting each others time. This have been going for how long? get the other MODS in and see what they say. If more Mods disagree then agree or vice versa, then accept what happens and close this thread

 

[Rocker1189]

Yoruichi is comparable to "in verse" beams of light.

If those beams of light have enough lightspeed showings then argue for it I dont care.

 

[Rocker1189]

Mans can't read, I specifically said that I'm not arguing for a LS Negacion on this site, but in verse as you like to say Yoruichi is comparable to light.

You say you are not arguing for it yet say I am conceding that they are light speed, do one or the other not both. And you seem to think that I care about negacion being light speed or not. I really dont, do the thread and if it is accepted cool.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

We are not arguing for them to begin with. You are the one who want to argue for them by saying that what the verse says matter.

 

[Damage3245]

If nobody is arguing for them, then drop the topic and stop derailing the thread.

 

[AKM sama]

>claims of not debating the topic that has been already debated
>topic keeps getting debated back and forth

Can you guys just take a step back and relax. I think we should focus on the main issue here. Damage's blog of calculated feats looks fine to use and the changes should be made according to that. Or is there some issue with any calc in that blog?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I been following the thread the whole time, and I still 100% agree with what damaging is saying. He is quite knowledgeable on our calculation policies. Also, we have asked multiple staff members with each and every single one of them agreeing with him. Also, it should be evaluated by people who are neutral on topics first and foremost. Because most verse supporters it's often expected that they agree with upgrades or disagree with downgrades out of preference rather than out of the balance of the wiki's system. That's why we often ask level headed staff members who don't really participate much in HST threads for input so we can have some level headed and unbiased evaluations. Above all, @Soldier_Blue is probably the most reasonable and unbiased Bleach supporter here, so you could ask him for input.

Anyway, I agree with Damage about the "Lightning speed" statements or assuming all assassins shoot arrows at those speeds. Same with feats happening off panel. And how we just assume a combination of two things just to highball results as much as possible.

 

[AKM sama]

No derailing from now on. Let's get back on track please.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

I am fine with asking and voting for calcs. Both side present the case and everyone can vote for it. But everyone gets the vote. Mod or not.
Other than Mods only those who have commented and contributed anything meaningful gets the vote.

 

[Damage3245]

@CloudStrife; I don't think this needs to turn into a simple majority ruling because I think you're aware that Bleach is a popular verse with a lot of supporters. As DDM said, it should be reviewed by people who are primarily neutral first and foremost.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

Then it shouldn't turn into something that the Mods would decide. Since that would turn into a whole different kind of issue.

 

[AKM sama]

What exactly in the calcs need voting?

 

[BlackeJan]

Imma be honest but I hate that everyone vote has to count. This would be like supporters grouping together so they can get the upgrade they want with the same way it is for the opposition.

Just ask the Mods to join and give their opinion and just wait till tomorrow

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I am fine with asking and voting for calcs. Both side present the case and everyone can vote for it. But everyone gets the vote. Mod or not.
Other than Mods only those who have commented and contributed anything meaningful gets the vote.

Staff opinion is all that matters. Damage is sugar coating it here, but Ant did just say staff opinion is all that matters in a DB thread. So what this boils down to is this: the wiki scaling is what the staff thinks characters are at, regardless of if they're debunked or not.

 

[Damage3245]

@AKM sama; there are two statements from the novel:

"Tokinada laughed loudly as he, of course, bounced back a lightning strike dealt by an enemy with a swing of his sword." pg305

"He was either moving fast enough to react to lightning or he was predicting his enemy's behavior--either way, it was evidence Tokinada possessed abilities in battle that were not to be disregarded." pg306

Arc wants to use these statements as justification for this calc: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:USklaverei/Yoruichi_oppressing_Onmitsukidō

I've explained that the statements don't necessarily support those assumptions.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

Calcs and statements need voting.

Like Will Fodders be Lightning timers.

Like Tokinada who can deflect lightning will be faster than lightning or slower than lightning
and so on.

Basically all the calcs and statement that have been argued for in last 10 pages.

None of them were accepted.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Imma be honest but I hate that everyone vote has to count. This would be like supporters grouping together so they can get the upgrade they want with the same way it is for the opposition.

Just ask the Mods to join and give their opinion and just wait till tomorrow

The reason people don't like this is because staff for the most part are an echo chamber.

I've explained that the statements don't necessarily support those assumptions.

I've explained otherwise but pop off.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

For the sake of ease of access, I'll compile my argument into a single post, @Damage3245 would you care to do the same and then staff can vote via likes.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

@Arc7Kuroi Lol, looks like you are about to give up

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@Arc7Kuroi Lol, looks like you are about to give up

I don't use this wiki for scaling lol, I've got my discord in my about section under my profile so if you genuinely want to discuss how I scale Bleach go for it. I'm on this site because I like to argue, but sadly I can't argue forever lol I've got to prioritize other work.

I've got like a 13 page doc that argues High 3-A to 2-C Bleach that I might drop as a CRT for ***** and giggles some time in the future.

 

[CloudStrife00T]

I get it. I know 4 mods that would unconditionally support Damage. So unless you are inviting 5 others then you barely have a chance to get your argument accepted. That's why I said people who have contributed to these 10 pages should get a vote.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

I get it. I know 4 mods that would unconditionally support Damage. So unless you are inviting 5 others then you barely have a chance to get your argument accepted. That's why I said people who have contributed to these 10 pages should get a vote.

Yeah but then you have to define what a meaningful contribution is, and that seems like a lot of work to still fight an uphill battle against staff.

 

[AKM sama]

"Tokinada laughed loudly as he, of course, bounced back a lightning strike dealt by an enemy with a swing of his sword." pg305

"He was either moving fast enough to react to lightning or he was predicting his enemy's behavior--either way, it was evidence Tokinada possessed abilities in battle that were not to be disregarded." pg306

Not sure about how it effects the calc, but the first statement about "lightning strike" can easily be flowery language.

The second statement is more clear where it states he might be moving fast enough to react to lightning (we consider lightning to be Mach 1294). But it also says that he might just be predicting.

I don't think that is sufficient enough information for the character in question to scale to lightning speed. But the "enemy" seems to have lightning fast attacks based on the second statement. Again, not sure how it effects the calc, neither am I well informed about the entire context.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

Not sure about how it effects the calc, but the first statement about "lightning strike" can easily be flowery language.

The second statement is more clear where it states he might be moving fast enough to react to lightning (we consider lightning to be Mach 1294). But it also says that he might just be predicting.

I don't think that is sufficient enough information for the character in question to scale to lightning speed. But the "enemy" seems to be lightning fast based on the second statement. Again, not sure how it effects the calc.

The enemy being lightning fast is all that matters for the calc, as Tokinada already has FTL scaling. Because the people Yoruichi blitzes are the so called "enemies" as you put it.

 

[AppleLord]

Not sure about how it effects the calc, but the first statement about "lightning strike" can easily be flowery language.

The second statement is more clear where it states he might be moving fast enough to react to lightning (we consider lightning to be Mach 1294). But it also says that he might just be predicting.

I don't think that is sufficient enough information for the character in question to scale to lightning speed. But the "enemy" seems to be lightning fast based on the second statement. Again, not sure how it effects the calc, neither am I well informed about the entire context.

The guy is stated to be casually laughing while reacting to the lightning strike. Someone predicting the attack would be focus or at least worried that he may get hit.

 

[Damage3245]

@AKM sama; part of the issue is that while Arc7 is assuming that the enemy Tokinada is facing is lightning speed (and scaling this to get lightning speed reactions for every assassin), the context of the fight suggests that it is a lightning projectile.

Tokinada's ability that he is using allows him to reflect abilities with a swing of his sword - which he demonstrated earlier in the fight - and in that quote is described as "bouncing back a lightning strike".

I believe that Soi-Fon also notes that you'd need physical strikes to deal with him, so him reflecting a physical strike doesn't make a lot of sense.

 

[Arc7Kuroi]

@AKM sama; part of the issue is that while Arc7 is assuming that the enemy Tokinada is facing is lightning speed (and scaling this to get lightning speed reactions for every assassin), the context of the fight suggests that it is a lightning projectile.

Tokinada's ability that he is using allows him to reflect abilities with a swing of his sword - which he demonstrated earlier in the fight - and in that quote is described as "bouncing back a lightning strike".

I believe that Soi-Fon also notes that you'd need physical strikes to deal with him, so him reflecting a physical strike doesn't make a lot of sense.

The enemy just witnessed that ranged attacks are ineffective so a physical strike makes most sense.

Tokinada can still reflect the lightning from the strike even if it's physical. Also you're using a word association fallacy here.

When Soifon is talking about physical strikes she's referencing Kenpachi like strikes, not elemental physical strikes.

 

[AppleLord]

@AKM sama; part of the issue is that while Arc7 is assuming that the enemy Tokinada is facing is lightning speed (and scaling this to get lightning speed reactions for every assassin), the context of the fight suggests that it is a lightning projectile.

Tokinada's ability that he is using allows him to reflect abilities with a swing of his sword - which he demonstrated earlier in the fight - and in that quote is described as "bouncing back a lightning strike".

I believe that Soi-Fon also notes that you'd need physical strikes to deal with him, so him reflecting a physical strike doesn't make a lot of sense.

If the sword reflection was a power than made it faster than Tokinada, his eyes and body wouldn't move a lighting strike speeds to intercept.

 

[Damage3245]

The enemy just witnessed that ranged attacks are ineffective so a physical strike makes most sense.

Tokinada can still reflect the lightning from the strike even if it's physical. Also you're using a word association fallacy here.

When Soifon is talking about physical strikes she's referencing Kenpachi like strikes, not elemental physical strikes.

I've offered an alternative explanation. Maybe one of the assassins figured his attack would be faster and tried it out. Maybe he didn't grasp that Tokinada could also reflect his attack. Maybe he just wasn't that clever.

I don't care for this "word association fallacy", you're also associating the phrase "lightning strike" to mean some kind of physical attack. Nothing of the sort concretely happened.

 

[AKM sama]

The guy is stated to be casually laughing while reacting to the lightning strike. Someone predicting the attack would be focus or at least worried that he may get hit.

The guy might just be good at predicting the opponent's attacks, or the opponent might just have straight and easy to predict patterns. If the statement clearly says that is a possibility, you can't just dismiss it because there can be thousands of explanations for it. Anyway that doesn't seem to be the main issue here so I'll digress.

I've offered an alternative explanation. Maybe one of the assassins figured his attack would be faster and tried it out.

I guess that is also a possibility. When your opponent is able to easily reflect your projectiles, you can either try attacking physically, or just try with a faster projectile believing your opponent won't be able to react and reflect it.