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The Big Bleach Speed CRT

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Damage3245 said:
Calc it that way. I'm curious to see what the result is and how consistent it is.
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It comes out to .14c, which wouldn't scale to anyone in SS Arc, but it would scale to Grimmjow who's > Aaroniero.

Aaroniero has a .1c calc that's backed by his narrative.

So, it's actually decently consistent narratively within the story.

Plus it would mean that relativistic is like super impressive in SS Arc, and Yama says it's useless to try and get the traitors once the Negacion light comes down. Which blah blah isn't light according to the site, going by the narrative Yama is saying at this instance lightspeed is out of SS Arc characters league, so it would be consistent.

If you seriously want me to calc it in blog format I will.
 
CloudStrife00T said:
We assume based on statement, context, subtext, info. Which should be more that enough to assume something.
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That's exactly what's being done on the other side.
Arc7Kuroi said:
Ichigo only says I can go faster.

The only valid assumption is that he sped up.

Assuming Ichigo got stronger or anything else is unfounded.
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It's not even ichigo getting stronger, it would just be Ichigo using more of his own strength. Which is how speed works and once again, and unless bleach has shown time and time again that speed is completely unrelated to one's phsyical strength there is no reason to entirely dismiss it like it's impossible or call it unfounded.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
It comes out to .14c, which wouldn't scale to anyone in SS Arc, but it would scale to Grimmjow who's > Aaroniero.

Aaroniero has a .1c calc that's backed by his narrative.

So, it's actually decently consistent narratively within the story.

If you seriously want me to calc it in blog format I will.
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I want you to calc it as how you percieve the feat. No "lowballing it massively for the sake of the site".
 
I've been asked to look at this thread, so can someone give me a Tl;DR on the arguments that have happened since I left?
 
Warren_Valion said:
I've been asked to look at this thread, so can someone give me a Tl;DR on the arguments that have happened since I left?
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I'd just wait and see for the calcs to be finished. Then we'll have two clear things to compare against.
 
I mean, in the novel is literally stated that Assassin can attack at the speed of lightning, and the narrator stated that who saw the attack, need to react at the speed of lightning. And Yourichi was calced at Sub-Relativistic for bllitzing them, so the consistecies is definitely not a problem.
There are 6 lightning based kido, which some of them shown properties like flowing into conducting material as electricity (hado 11).
 
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I'm going offline soon but I'll resume this in the morning. I've got some ideas for how we could proceed with this.
 
Dangai_Ichigo said:
Did we arrive at any agreements?
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Not yet lol.

Damage3245 said:
I'm going offline soon but I'll resume this in the morning. I've got some ideas for how we could proceed with this.
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Look forward to hearing them.

Warren_Valion said:
I've been asked to look at this thread, so can someone give me a Tl;DR on the arguments that have happened since I left?
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Would you still like me to summarize my argument, among with my interpretation of the opposing argument.
 
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Just to clarify, I did not say Ichigo can take out large chunks of petals with a single swing, just that the petals taken out by him can also take out petals that are coming right behind it. I don't see how the scan of Ichigo taking out some petals, or failing to take out a huge wall of petals proves otherwise. Those scans do not really effect the argument.
 
I think AKM makes a good point.

Even if you disagree with the idea that Ichigo is swatting aside cross-sections of blades from the pillars of Senbonzakura heading his way - the idea that he is only shaving off a tiny amount at a time isn't one that is rooted in hard evidence.

The page of Ichigo and around 69 visible petals doesn't mean that those petals are the only ones he has deflected - if they were then you'd still see the remaining pillars of Senbonzakura in close proximity to him. It is far more likely that Ichigo has just deflected the mass of Senbonzakura out of frame and those visible ones are the remnants.

Byakuya stating that Ichigo "swatted them all away" is not proof of what happened. It is just a description which Shadow and I have pointed out has multiple interpretations. The bowling analogy really is the best metaphor for this. If you score a strike it is fair to say that you "knocked all the pins down" but nobody interprets that as meaning that you had to knock each one down with the bowling ball itself.

Ichigo swatting back a mass of petals - and those petals hitting the ones behind them (since as Arc pointed out they can't phase through each other and there is only limited space for each one to occupy) - is just as plausible if not more so due to the nature of physics.

Claiming that Ichigo knocks back more than just what he could hit with his sword is an impossibility doesn't work as a counterargument. You can think it is an unlikely feat but as Byakuya has described it, Ichigo's feat is "impossible" anyway.

Something else that is being ignored if that the sheer difference in number of strikes between Ichigo being blocked by Senbonzakura and Ichigo swatting away Senbonzakura. Ichigo simply hitting harder & faster is one explanation for him swatting them away, but the other is the fact that he used hundreds / thousands / tens of thousands of strikes in rapid succession.... I don't see how you can "Ichigo was blocked by Senonzakura when he struck it once, therefore he can't deflect all of Senbonzakura with thousands of faster strikes!"

As for where we go from here? My best idea right now is for some Calc Group members to judge what interpretation of the feat may be more viable for calcing, and to see if higher members of staff like DDM and AKM has anything else to say about the feat.

The other, other alternative is for the feat to be rejected altogether due to too much disagreement on it.
 
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Damage3245 said:
I don't see how you can "Ichigo was blocked by Senonzakura when he struck it once, therefore he can't deflect all of Senbonzakura with thousands of faster strikes!"
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No what we are saying is he can't knock away large amounts because he couldn't knocked away large amounts earlier. Again you cannot definitively say his deflecting strikes were more powerful, idk how many times I need debunk this.

Damage3245 said:
the idea that he is only shaving off a tiny amount at a time isn't one that is rooted in hard evidence.
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It's rooted in the only visible evidence that we have, meanwhile assuming he knocked away huge amounts via "bowling pin chain reactions" like you suggest is nothing but an assumption.

Damage3245 said:
if they were then you'd still see the remaining pillars of Senbonzakura in close proximity to him.
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That white space around Ichigo are the pillars yes. If you look close to Ichigo (bottom right) you can see jagged outlines of the pillars.

Damage3245 said:
Byakuya stating that Ichigo "swatted them all away" is not proof of what happened.
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You're right, but when you combine it contextually with how he thought it impossible, how we only see bits and pieces flying away, and how Ichigo's sword can be effectively blocked by a high amount of petals, assuming he swatted away at most thin layers at a time is the most likely assumption.
 
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AKM sama said:
I don't see how the scan of Ichigo taking out some petals, or failing to take out a huge wall of petals proves otherwise.
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Then you're blind. Ichigo cannot strike through large amount of petals at once, so why would a petal flying away (would have much less energy behind it than a full on strike from Ichigo) be able to knock away petals. Again if you go by the visuals he doesn't knock away huge swathes either.
 
Let me nip this swinging faster = more AP for Ichigo in the bud.

Ichigo is Island level in Bankai, the AP associated with an average katana moving at Mach 320 (as the original calc suggests) is less than 0.00000005% of his actual AP. So no swinging faster does not significantly increase Ichigo's AP here it doesn't even contribute to a single percent of Ichigo's AP. This would mean that even if Ichigo was moving his sword at 1m/s for the 2-handed strike the increase in speed wouldn't provide a noticeable increase to AP.
 
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>Sees there is a bleach CRT.
>Realizes that I missed 6 pages.

Anyone kind enough to give me a quick summary of what is currently being debated or do I have to read all 6 pages?
 
I mean this page 6 recent posts summarizes what is currently being argued, but when I get time I'll post a summary, it's just debunking and responding takes priority for me rn.
 
Where did you get those measurements for the petal? I wanted to make that calc way back in the day, but never did because I was missing that value. I only ever found regular leaves or the entire flower.
 
RatherClueless said:
Where did you get those measurements for the petal? I wanted to make that calc way back in the day, but never did because I was missing that value. I only ever found regular leaves or the entire flower.
Click to expand...
I had to do some digging, I'll try and find the website again, but there was this link to a pdf of graphs of flower petal size data that included means and standard deviations for different versions of the same flower and it averaged out to about 1 millimeter.

I guess alternatively you could go to your local flower shop and buy some cherry blossoms lol. I'm also sure you could find an image where the petal is perpendicular with the panel and pixel scale it off something (probably Byakuya's face).
 
Allow me to summarize my arguments and debunks to the common counter-arguments I'm seeing, @Warren_Valion I didn't forget lol:


My claim: Ichigo shaved off at most enough petals to line the blade of Tensa Zangetsu per swing while swinging through every petal in Senbonzakura Kageyoshi (assuming stacked like paper for the sake of lowball).

Why only enough petals to line the blade?
  • In the first image we see that Tensa Zangetsu cannot cleave through multiple layers of Senbonzakura Kageyoshi.
  • In the second image we see that the petal pillars being sent to surround and attack Ichigo are thicker than the petal pillars used to previously block Tensa Zangetsu.
  • In the third image we can actually see individual petals being swatted away, rather than large chunks, supporting the notion that each swing from Ichigo was not swatting away a large chunk of petals.
  • In the fourth image Byakuya comments that "[Ichigo] swatted all of [the petals] away." The conclusion reached from this statement that follows the least amount of assumptions is that Ichigo hit every/the entire amount of/the whole quantity of Senbonzakura's petals, as that's what Byakuya directly states. Since, swatting implies direct contact, that would mean Ichigo's blade comes into contact with all of the petals.
Relevant Counter 1: Ichigo swung faster so it means he had a substantial AP increase, meaning he could cleave through large chunks.
  • Ichigo's Pseudo Bankai AP in this fight is Island level (on the order of magnitude of 10^19 joules), Ichigo's sword being a katana on average would weigh 1.4 kg, so the energy associated with swinging Tensa Zangetsu at Mach 320, as the calc suggests, is .5mv^2 (which ends up being on the order of magnitude of 10^10 joules). The percent of AP energy Ichigo gets from the KE of his swing is on the order of magnitude of 10^-7 percent of his total AP, it is negligible and does not even show up in the amount of decimal places the AP chart shows for Island level AP. So, no Ichigo swinging that fast does not make his attacks significantly stronger to the point where can go from being blocked by a pillar of petals' cross-section to no-selling an entire pillar's cross section.
Relevant Counter 2: Ichigo doesn't have to hit all the petals to deflect the attack, and if he was hitting all the petals why don't we see the pillars still in the panel of the feat.
  • If you look at the bottom right side of the third image, you are able to see an outline of the pillars moving in towards Ichigo. This means that the majority of the white space you see surrounding Ichigo are petals. When Kubo draws the sky in this chapter, it isn't stark white it is shaded light gray, meanwhile the background of Ichigo is stark white like the petals.
  • Ichigo doesn't have to hit all the petals; however, the only justification for such is that in bowling you can knock adjacent pins over with other pins. No argumentation from the manga is used to support this, just a faulty real world analogy equating moving petals with Island level AP to stationary bowling pins, quite the false equivalence. This "maybe Ichigo didn't hit all the petals" argument is entirely hypothetical only backed by false equivocal analogies. To assume such also requires one to make additional assumption regarding Byakuya's quote. Meanwhile, Byakuya saying Ichigo hit all the petals (as stated above) in the simplest sense/with the least assumptions means the blade of Tensa Zangetsu hit all of the petals. Also, as additional supporting evidence, we only see bits and pieces of petals flying away with each of Ichigo's swings, further supporting that only thin layers of petals are being deflected at a time.
Conclusion:
The safest way to calc this feat without blatantly getting a value less than what is accurate: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User:USklaverei/sandbox

I believe I am winning/won this debate due to my much higher preponderance of evidence compared to my opponents, as well as my consistent refutation of their counter-claims; meanwhile, the opposing side often fails to address my claims (flat out ignoring them at times) or derails to the conversation to topics unrelated to the premise being argued. While, I cannot directly confirm this, I'm pretty sure I also have the majority support as of the last time people weighed in. It's worth noting, that a good bit of the opposing support is just echo-chambering "I agree" rather than providing reasoning as to why; while my supporters provide evidence and reasoning.
 
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> In the first image we see that Tensa Zangetsu cannot cleave through multiple layers of Senbonzakura Kageyoshi. In the second image we see that the petal pillars being sent to surround and attack Ichigo are thicker than the petal pillars used to previously block Tensa Zangetsu.

Even if we accepted he could not do that, that doesn't mean he only stacks as many petals as a single layer on his sword.

> In the third image we can actually see individual petals being swatted away, rather than large chunks, supporting the notion that each swing from Ichigo was not swatting away a large chunk of petals.

Those aren't necessarily just the petals that are being swatted away.

> In the fourth image Byakuya comments that "[Ichigo] swatted all of [the petals] away." The conclusion reached from this statement that follows the least amount of assumptions is that Ichigo hit every/the entire amount of/the whole quantity of Senbonzakura's petals, as that's what Byakuya directly states. Since, swatting implies direct contact, that would mean Ichigo's blade comes into contact with all of the petals.

You don't have to hit every single petal in order for the entire amount of Senbonzakura's petals to be swatted away.

> If you look at the bottom right side of the third image, you are able to see an outline of the pillars moving in towards Ichigo. This means that the majority of the white space you see surrounding Ichigo are petals.

That could just be an outline of a petal, not a pillar. I don't see any reason for the whole rest of the white space to be pillars too.

And even if they were - look at it like this; if Ichigo is surrounded by petals in every direction, where are the petals he is deflecting going? Back into the rest of the petals.

> Ichigo doesn't have to hit all the petals; however, the only justification for such is that in bowling you can knock adjacent pins over with other pins. No argumentation from the manga is used to support this, just a faulty real world analogy equating moving petals with Island level AP to stationary bowling pins, quite the false equivalence.

Oh yeah, because every single petal totally has Island level AP.

It's not a false equivalence, it's just an analogy trying to explain to you how the physics of the feat works.

> To assume such also requires one to make additional assumption regarding Byakuya's quote.

The same thing you're doing.

You cannot pretend your interpretation is the default interpretation.


@Matthew Schroeder; thank you for responding.
 
Arc7Kuroi said:
I had to do some digging, I'll try and find the website again, but there was this link to a pdf of graphs of flower petal size data that included means and standard deviations for different versions of the same flower and it averaged out to about 1 millimeter.

I guess alternatively you could go to your local flower shop and buy some cherry blossoms lol. I'm also sure you could find an image where the petal is perpendicular with the panel and pixel scale it off something (probably Byakuya's face).
Click to expand...
Wouldn't you need all 3 sizes and not just one? I doubt it's 1mmX1mmX1mm

Idk where you live, but cherries currently don't blossom here, kek. Otherwise I could take the measurements in our garden.
 
Damage3245 said:
Even if we accepted he could not do that, that doesn't mean he only stacks as many petals as a single layer on his sword.
Click to expand...
Going by how the petals are aimed towards Ichigo they are likely stacked long ways and not paper style. You don't have to except it, Ichigo displayed that he cannot cleave through multiple layers it's what happened. Being that Ichigo can't cleave through multiple layers it likely does mean only that.

Damage3245 said:
Those aren't necessarily just the petals that are being swatted away.
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You cannot prove anything else is being swatted away indirectly, meanwhile I can prove that those petals are being swatted away.

Damage3245 said:
You don't have to hit every single petal in order for the entire amount of Senbonzakura's petals to be swatted away.
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If you read my post I go over this. You have yet to prove this (and no the bowling analogy is not proof).

Damage3245 said:
That could just be an outline of a petal, not a pillar. I don't see any reason for the whole rest of the white space to be pillars too.

And even if they were - look at it like this; if Ichigo is surrounded by petals in every direction, where are the petals he is deflecting going? Back into the rest of the petals.
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It's very clearly the pillar, the sky isn't drawn stark white in the chapter but the petals are, reread the chapter. You'd still have to prove Ichigo is knocking petals away with enough force to knock away petals in a chain reaction, which you cannot do. As for where the petals are going, they are going backwards as the other petals behind them fly towards Ichigo.

Damage3245 said:
Oh yeah, because every single petal totally has Island level AP.

It's not a false equivalence, it's just an analogy trying to explain to you how the physics of the feat works.
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Byakuya's petals do not function like bowling pins, thus the analogy falls apart. I don't need physics explained to me by pseudo-scientists.

Damage3245 said:
The same thing you're doing.

You cannot pretend your interpretation is the default interpretation.
Click to expand...
My interpretation is the one of least assumptions, thus it should be the default. Since when did interpretations with more assumptions become the more acceptable ones on this site?

Damage3245 said:
@Matthew Schroeder; thank you for responding
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"I agree with damage" does not refute my points.
 
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RatherClueless said:
Urgh, no. You need ta least 2 measurements
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You only need multiple measurements if Ichigo is cleaving through cross-sections. Which is currently being debated about atm. For damage's version of the calc I pixel scaled the two lengths of the petals.

My calc was accepted, nothings wrong with it, this CRT is for debating it's validity in usage for scaling.
 
Damage3245 said:
As for where we go from here? My best idea right now is for some Calc Group members to judge what interpretation of the feat may be more viable for calcing, and to see if higher members of staff like DDM and AKM has anything else to say about the feat.

The other, other alternative is for the feat to be rejected altogether due to too much disagreement on it.
Click to expand...
I think this is the best option by the way.
 
Arc7
If Ichigo is surrounded by the petals, and he "swats them", but there are more petals coming behind those and you agree the petals aren't immaterial and they can't push through the others, then where is Ichigo swatting them to?
Unless by Ichigo swatting them they push the one's behind them, he would've never managed to do the feat in the first place.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Arc7
If Ichigo is surrounded by the petals, and he "swats them", but there are more petals coming behind those and you agree the petals aren't immaterial and they can't push through the others, then where is Ichigo swatting them to?
Unless by Ichigo swatting them they push the one's behind them, he would've never managed to do the feat in the first place.
Click to expand...
The problem is that ichigo could not swats layer of them, because he is not physically able to do that, he can only bypass the layer of petal hitting them in the most isolated way, and that is the point of the feat itself, showning his speed.
 
LephyrTheRevanchist said:
Arc7
If Ichigo is surrounded by the petals, and he "swats them", but there are more petals coming behind those and you agree the petals aren't immaterial and they can't push through the others, then where is Ichigo swatting them to?
Unless by Ichigo swatting them they push the one's behind them, he would've never managed to do the feat in the first place.
Click to expand...
The petals are moving, they are not a rigid wall. When Ichigo swats a petal, the petals behind it move in front of the petal that was swatted. Nothing indicates or shows that Ichigo chain reaction knocks away the petals.

This also relies on the assumption that Ichigo is able to knock away petals with enough force to knock away adjacent petals, which is a baseless assumption.
 
Tyri456 said:
The problem is that ichigo could not swats layer of them, because he is not physically able to do that, he can only bypass the layer of petal hitting them in the most isolated way.
Click to expand...

That's just an assumption. There is no written law stating Ichigo cannot physically do that.

> The petals are moving, they are not a rigid wall. When Ichigo swats a petal, the petals behind it move in front of the petal that was swatted. Nothing indicates or shows that Ichigo chain reaction knocks away the petals.

If these petals are somehow fine-tuned enough to weave out of the way of Ichigo's sword that has petals on it... how did Ichigo manage to hit any of them in the first place? Wouldn't they just move around his sword?
 
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