The best Pikachu

[Theformofacast]

Idk if the this thread is a bit redundant because there is already an Ash vs Red thread, but I think that this battle may be interesting.

Generation 2 Game Red vs Ash Ketchum.

Both trainers only have their respective Pikachu.

Battle takes place in Mt. Silver. Win via KO.

Ash can't use any Z-Move.

Ash: 4 (Mickey1940, CryoTheMayo, DragonEmperor23, Dargoo Faust)

Red:

Inconclusive: 1 (TheArsenal1212)

 

[Theformofacast]

Bump

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Ash's Pikachu curbstomps via superior feats and superior skill regarding it defeating a Latios as well as both a Tyranitar and Metagross in a row. Not to mention it's technical superiority with attacks such as Iron Tail, Electro Web and Thunderbolt.

 

[Dziga]

Ash's Pikachu curbstomps via superior feats and superior skill regarding it defeating a Latios as well as both a Tyranitar and Metagross in a row. Not to mention it's technical superiority with attacks such as Iron Tail, Electro Web and Thunderbolt.

1- Pikachu defeating Latios is obviously PSI / Outlier, otherwise it would mean Ash's Pikachu scales to Legendary Pokémon.

2- Red's Pikachu should be more than capable of taking out Pseudo-Legendary Pokémon, given he is Red's ace Pokémkon and Red is a champion, who had to defeat trainers with Pseudo-Legendary Pokémon like Lance and Rematch Blue.

3- Your moves don't present any "technical superiority" (whatever that's supposed to mean) at all. Red's Pikachu himself has Iron Tail and Thunderbolt, and Electro Web is far from being a game changer.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

1 - No it isn't. Pikachu has defeated Regice, Latios, Tyranitar and Metagross all by the end of (or after) a regional journey. It is accepted that Pikachu's powers vary based on the progress within the region to my memory and Pikachu scaling to this level is very consistent.

2. No, that's not how the logic works. The only Pseudo-Legendary that Red has beaten at this point (to our knowledge) would be Dragonite which he could have easily achieved with any of his stronger pokemon. There is zero evidence to Red's Pikachu being that powerful or having such a feat.

3. Yes, they do. Ash's Pikachu has utilised Iron Tail to great effect to slice apart attacks, splash the opponent with water to conduct electricity and to build momentum to bounce platform-to-platform. Its electro web has also been used to easily catch another Pikachu that was using Volt Tackle and defeat it. Its Thunderbolt is so advanced that it can destroy several projectiles with a single use of the move and is generally depicted as advanced.

You are effectively comparing a featless, strong, Pikachu to a Pikachu with feats consisting of taking out legendaries, pseudo-legendaries and buttloads of mastery over its techniques. There is zero contest here.

Besides Ash already beat SM Red in another matchup. Comparing his god-tier Pikachu to an ???-tier Pikachu is ridiculous. The only thing we can go on would be game mechanics and last I checked his Pikachu is pretty weak compared to any fully evolved pokemon.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

To add further this is SM Pikachu (considering OP mentioned no Z-Moves). If this is the case then there really is no argument. SM Pikachu has fought multiple legendaries and a mega in just this series alone.

• Tapu Koko (Has stalemated multiple times)

• Mega Gyarados (Defeated it)

• Nihelgo (Defeated with Z-Move)

• Zeraora (Capable of matching)

• Guzzlord (Defeated with Zeraora)

Even with its Z-Moves not included Pikachu could still clash with and match these various extremely powerful pokemon with its own raw physicals.

 

[Dziga]

So Pikachu scales to legendaries / UB's but is still tier 7-A+ instead of 6-B+ / 5-B. Yeh no.

 

[Genericstickman]

Tier 2 Pikachu for harming Arceus

 

[Theformofacast]

Yeah, Ash's Pikachu strenght is very inconsistent. It's preferable to use the data from his Wiki page. Red's Pikachu also scales to 3rd stage well-trained Pokémon, so both may be pretty even in AP.

 

[Dziga]

If you legit want to scale legendary Pokémon to trainers now, you get this.

 

[Theformofacast]

Even thinking it's a joke profile, it's very well done.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

@Dziga

Do you people think all legendaries are the same? This is like claiming ALL DARKRAI ARE 2-C BECAUSE TWO DARKRAI DID SOME 2-C FEATS LMAO.

Pikachu has always scaled above Psuedo Legends and around the level of 'low-tier' legendaries like Latios, Tapu Koko, etc. There has never been a contradiction to this outside of early region outliers.

OP even specifically mentioned Z-Moves...an SM only thing. If this is Pikachu from the latest series then, as I already stated, Pikachu has SEVERAL battles against pokemon of this calibre. It's not an outlier and it's not something to disregard.

How do you argue against scaling that has occurred several times in a singular series?

@Theformofacast

I have never seen this claim before. Game Pikachu is only 8-A. I have never seen a profile or scaling for Red's Pikachu to be 7-A.

 

[Dziga]

So Pikachu scales to legendaries, but they're "low level" so they are not much stronger than fully-evolved Pokémon, but for some reason fighting them puts you so far above champion level Pokémon. Ok sure, go there pal.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

So Pikachu scales to legendaries, but they're "low level" so they are not much stronger than fully-evolved Pokémon, but for some reason fighting them puts you so far above champion level Pokémon. Ok sure, go there pal.

No? Dude what are you even talking about? In the anime champion-level pokemon consistently manage to fight legendaries. Alain's Mega Charizard could go toe-to-toe with 50% Zygarde. Diantha scales above that with her Mega Gardevoir. Steven's Metagross stomped Alain's Charizard (which was capable of even tussling briefly with Primal Groudon, Kyogre and Mega Rayquaza albeit ineffectively).

It's pretty damn consistent for Champion-level pokemon to go against legendaries, powerful legendaries with Mega Evolution.

Ash's Pikachu and his Greninja both scale to this level in XY and his Pikachu has consistently defeated low-tier legendaries by the end of each journey. By 'low-tier' I am referring to legendaries that don't literally shift continents. Legendaries that are above or around the level of a Champion-level psuedo-legend.

Any 'outliers' presented on this wiki regarding these feats are simply due to people scaling ALL legendary species members to one particular level of power for no apparent reason other than. maybe, profile clutter (which could be fixed via keys). It's an apparent flaw in the design of the pokemon profiles.

 

[Dziga]

Ever heard of Content Revisions Threads? There is generally the place you dump posts like that, not Versus Threads.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Ever heard of Content Revisions Threads? There is generally the place you dump posts like that, not Versus Threads.

I don't care about making a CRT. You can even look at Pikachu's profile rn to see that he scales to being on the same tier as the Pseudo-Legends (and every other fully evolved pokemon) which is exactly where he should be. I am simply stating that his feats aren't outliers based on the rationale that they aren't the same level as the other members of their species.

Again, Pikachu has consistently scaled to this level in SM. It's akin to any Champion-level pokemon which can handle any of these lesser legendaries that seemingly scale to any especially powerful pokemon.

What I would like is some evidence that this isn't a curbstomp when Games Pikachu is only 8-A and Anime Pikachu is 7-A.

 

[Dziga]

So you criticize the current profiles but doesn't want to make a CTR but wants people to follow them the way you think they should be in versus threads. Bravo.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

So you criticize the current profiles but doesn't to make CTR but wants people to follow the way you think they should be in versus threads. Bravo.

You can stop trying to stir up an argument and actually look at what I am saying. Anime Pikachu is At least 7-A. Games (or ordinary) Pikachu are 8-A.

I am literally stating that most of the legendaries that Pikachu battles are depicted as being on that level of power and scale to that level. You don't need any revisions to look at every battle with legendaries and go "Oh yeah these are weaker than the outliers of its species".

Tapu Koko is, also, holding back against Pikachu to train him and Ash but it's shown that they manage to push it harder and harder with each rematch.

Now, unless you make an actual response I'm not going to reply.

 

[Dziga]

There really is nothing to reply, you're trying to argue that Red's ace Pokémon is fodder and that Anime Pikachu somehow scales to legendaries but don't at the same time because they're weaker than their normal counterparts, but at the same time that puts him above Red. This has practically become a meme.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

There really is nothing to reply, you're trying to argue that Red's ace Pokémon is fodder and that Anime Pikachu somehow scales to legendaries but don't at the same time because they're weaker than their normal counterparts, but at the same time that puts him above Red. This has practically become a meme.

Well you could actually...you know...provide some evidence that Red's Pikachu is that strong outside of "His ace pokemon" which is questionable in-itself.

If you take a look at the scaling in SM you would see it's all questionable anyways.

• Tapu Koko scales to 5-B for battling an Ultra Beast that has no feats outside of "The Ultra Beasts threaten all of Alola and maybe the world"

• Zeraora scales to Guzzlord for fighting it toe-to-toe in the anime...making Zeraora 5-B....EVEN THOUGH PIKACHU DOES THE SAME THING

• Mega Gyarados is only 'at least 7-A'

• Nihelgo and Guzzlord have the same issues as Tapu Koko

The SM scaling in-itself is all screwed up and nonsensical. The reason why Pikachu 'scales to legendaries' for its feats, even though those legendaries are low-tier ones that are weaker than the stronger members, is due to those weak legendaries still scaling to or above the level of any fully evolved pokemon. A singular weak Darkrai can stomp most of Ash's party with Ash's own Pikachu managing to tie with a weak Latios on its own.

This obviously has exceptions...like Zygarde, Mewtwo, etc who are depicted as only having 2 or 1 members of its species which means this argument doesn't work for them. But lesser legendaries like the Latios, Darkrai, Zeraora and so on? We have no reason to believe they all scale to the same level.

Essentially what I am stating is that the legendaries that Pikachu defeats are often much stronger than any fully-evolved pokemon but are much weaker than their strongest outliers.

Hell isn't it canon that Poke Balls restrict the power of pokemon? Meaning a captured Darkrai would be much weaker than a free Darkrai.

 

[Dziga]

Again, do a CTR or cope if you have a problem with the scaling here.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Okay, well. I'm done with this debate if there are no actual responses to my question.

There seems to be nothing to indicate Red's Pikachu is anything above 8-A whereas Ash's Pikachu is at least 7-A due to its numerous feats being supported as scaling to that level (which is where all of the mega pokemon scale to which is where many of the lesser legendary in the anime are depicted as being).

Unless somebody has an actual argument for Red's I'm going to reiterate that Ash's Pikachu stomps.

 

[Dziga]

Nah fam you're 100% right, Red's Pikachu is just there as decoration, he clearly would get stomped by a wild Raticate since Pikachu is only 8-A+ and Raticate is Low 7-B. Anyone who thinks that a champion's ace Pokémon would be at least suitable to fight against an average fully-evolved Pokémon must be an idiot.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Low 7-B

Over 15x difference between high-end Low 7-B and minimal 7-A

When Ash's Pikachu is at least 7-A

Sure. Let's scale it to Low 7-B with no feats to support it.

 

[Dziga]

The trolling is strong in this one.

 

[Jasonsith]

The trolling is strong in this one.

Move it to Fun and Games to legalise the trolling here then.

 

[The_Calaca]

I... you... No, no. I won't.

 

[Theformofacast]

Please, this is getting incredibly off-topic, let's focus on what the thread is about.

 

[ABoogieYesSir]

Yeah penguin

 

[Theformofacast]

Bump

 

[Theformofacast]

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[Theformofacast]

Bump

 

[Theformofacast]

Bump

 

[Theformofacast]

Bump

 

[TheArsenal1212]

They're pretty even tbh. Ash's Pikachu has crazier move sets while Red is arguably the better trainer and therefore his Pikachu has had better training but that's not 100% accurate either. Ash's Pikachu has better experience but Red's helped defeat an elite four and champion. Unless one is proven to be statistically better than the other, I may go inconclusive

 

[Theformofacast]

That's one for inconclusive.

 

[Theformofacast]

Bump

 

[Theformofacast]

Bump

 

[Mickey1940]

I have to agree with CryoTheMayo to a degree. Ash's Pikachu has many feats that put him on an at least pseudo-legendary level, as shown that he was still able to keep up with a Mega Gyarados BEFORE finishing it off with his Z-Move. So it's safe to say that Ash's Pikachu has better feats, considering this is like Gen 2 Pikachu

Assuming Red's Pikachu can know more than 4 moves, the only thing I can think of that will give Pikachu trouble is the TM moves that Red's Pikachu can learn, most notably his stat amp moves, but Pikachu's Agility can help him dodge literally everything Red's Pikachu has. In Gen 2 Red's Pikachu has Curse, Defence Curl and Double Team, which can very easily be dealt with by Ash's Pikachu. Curse will make Red's Pikachu slower, which isn't good, defence Curl is rendered useless with Curse and can be bypassed with any of Ash's Pikachu's Special Attacks + Thunder Armor, and Double Team is rendered useless with Curse, since Double Team relies on the user's ability to "create illusionary copies", which appears to be made through rapid side-to-side movement. This won't work since Ash's Pikachu has Agility, which will make him many times faster than Red's Pikachu, butalso Curse slows down Red's Pikachu even more.

Plus Ash's pikachu has 2 methods of immobilization: Counter Shield and Electroweb which makes it even MORE unfortunate for Red's Pikachu

Also, if I remember correctly, didn't Ash's Pikachu beat a Raichu by absorbing it's electricity, even though the Raichu was vastly superior to him? There's nothing stopping Ash's Pikachu from doing the same thing, which Red's Pikachu cannot do in-game.


All in all, I can't see Red's Pikachu winning at all

 

[Theformofacast]

That's a good analysis overall. Vote counted.