The 3-A Triforce

[TriforcePower1]

Matt stating something about basically every pocket dimension being country sized, it was debunked (I mean, it's not even much his fault as it is NoA's), outliers claim (either at 3-A TF or at Link defeating Ganon), and me responding to Azzy and giving more feats to support this.

 

[Antvasima]

If the original Japanese states outright that the Triforce is universal, that is obviously much stronger evidence.

 

[Konaguna]

I mean there's still lorule, which is most likely it's own timeline, given that it a literate copy of the light world, having it's own compensation for everything that the light world has. and the triforce pretty much keeps Lorule and it's sacred realm together.

I'm honestly in favor of making TF 3-A and discarding 3-A Link from ALTTP. As I said, he should not be that strong, even if he had the MS. Regardless of the Triforce's tier, No One should be able to defeat someone with the whole thing. As for Vaati, well his canonicity is already questionable and he did lose so...

 

[Antvasima]

If we consider Link defeating the full Triforce as an outlier, that would likely solve our problems.

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

I'll restate the three assumptions we're discussing, though at this moment we seem to be discussing earlier ones previously agreed upon. It's fine to make sure our foundations are sturdy, but allow me to make sure we're on the same page as to what we are talking about and what we think of it. Again, here are the three assumptions taken by us supporters of the upgrade:

1.) The Dark World is a parallel universe. [Apparently this is a point of contention because the gameplay and such take place in the Hyrule/Lorule kingdoms. I don't see how you can take away anything but that the Light and Dark World are different universes based on the statements and the scenario itself. Since the Dark World has its own sun and is, as the quotes show, constantly compared as a mirror to the Light World, not just Hyrule, the burden of proof is on anyone claiming otherwise.]

2.) Triforce-Amped Ganon can manipulate the whole of the Dark World, not just the Hyrule region-equivalent. [You can argue what it implies when we get statements of the Triforce having the power to warp the Dark World. I think this assumption is reasonable based on the arguements posted by supporters above. At least this has much more to work with than downplaying the size of the realm.]

3.) ALttP Link scales by defeating Triforce-Amped Ganon. [This is the point that we should be discussing. I think I'm ok with this, but lemme ask the experts: Does the Master Sword vary in power from game to game? In ALttP, it's directly stated to be equal to the Triforce, so it should be that powerful here if in no other game. Plus, there's the Wind Fish dream realm with stars and such feat in Link's Awakening, although let's take that as secondary evidence at most.]

I've stated my opinions and addressed rebuttals (or at least supported others people's addresses to rebuttals), so the ball is in the non-supporter court. As much as I enjoy a good-natured thought excercise like this thread as been providing, however, the weather outside is wonderful, so I'd better appreciate it before the cold sets in. I'lll try to get back later today to help us keep on the same page and to addres counter-arguements; have a good one till then and keep the thread open, please. I really like a chill but challenging content revision like this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Triforce is never described as universal no offense.

 

[Konaguna]

@Freeman

Master sword was always treated as a sword that repels evil, magic and things alike, it is basically Ganon's Cryptonite, plus the Silver Arrows are what really kills Ganon in the frist place.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Matt. None taken. Discounting what TfP posted above, the Triforce is described as omnipotent more times than I can count. Obviously means nothing, but like, with the goddesses on the table, you can't claim outlier.

 

[Antvasima]

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Their purpose was for the one...the goddess-sama who protected the universal power

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The universal power...that was

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A legacy come from the gods, it fulfills all wishes and all desires

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The ancient goddess-sama received the ultimate power...

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The goddess-sama protected the universal power from the evil ones.

@Matthew

What about this?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Cal

The Goddesses are Low 2-C.

The Triforce never demonstrated such power, simply because they were created by the goddesses doesn't make them omnipotent.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Ant

That's just the same thing as saying it's omnipotent. Useless without feats.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

That's not the point (Goddesses are 2-C, not Low 2-C). The point is that if we're right and that the Triforce did warp the entirety of the Dark World (which the Triforce itself, which in that game is said to be omniscient, said that Ganon's wish did) and that the Dark World is a parallel universe to the Light World (not Hyrule, the Light World), it's not an outlier like you said it'd be even if we were right. This isn't the case of Kaguya for example.

 

[Konaguna]

Can y'all calm down please, idk if it's just me but I feel a tension growing?

This isn't about Low 2-C TF, the triforce can not have the same power as the goddesses who poured a portion of their power into it.

3-A is different thing however, and it does have feats to go by

 

[TriforcePower1]

@Matt *2-C, not that it matters.

Cal simply means that the TF has too many statements about being >>>>>>>>>> basically everything in the verse+ plus being considered "the symbol of power" of 2-C goddesses for something like tier 3 feats being outliers. Especially when there are supportive statements and feats.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

They are Low 2-C, lol. They just created one universe with a timeline that split.

The Dark World isn't the size of a universe. There's literally no single evidence of that. You're just assuming that it should be because it parallels the Light World which isn't a defined size either.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The Triforce has no Tier 3 feats and it being called Omnipotent is irrelevant.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

One, their tier is 2-C. Two, the only timeline that split was the Child/Adult. Downfall logically has to be a separate universe. Three, they created Termina too, which is ridiculous to assume is just some alternate planet.

Btw, my insistence for TLoZ being Tier 3 doesn't impact how you see me, right?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

One, their tier is 2-C. Two, the only timeline that split was the Child/Adult. Downfall logically has to be a separate universe. Three, they created Termina too, which is ridiculous to assume is just some alternate planet.

Nope. Link could just have lost, done, leading to a temporal split. Pure headcanon to say that they created it.

Also creating Termina is just a 4-A feat at the highest. All of these feats are 4-A at best.

Also, since when is it said that they did it instantly when that's clearly not the case. It took a combined effort to create the world with each creating specific things.

 

[TriforcePower1]

"You're just assuming that it should be because it parallels the Light World which isn't a defined size either."

World can mean civilization, planet or universe. The Light World is already at least 1/2 UA already.

 

[Konaguna]

The light world is like the main timeline where all the main events happen, and Lorule is an exact copy-paste of it.

Dark World Mirrors it, and there have been loads of statements supporting this.

It literally holds both of those worlds in balance, DW was about to disappear after ganon kicked the bucket lmao

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

99% of the statements in Zelda are limited to Hyrule. Even the Light World is used as a synonym for Hyrule quite often. Assuming that it is a Universe is the highest end interpretation.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It literally holds both of those worlds in balance, DW was about to disappear after ganon kicked the bucket lmao

The Light World is the world where Zelda and Hyrule take place. It's not proven to be a universe and much less the Dark World.

Also the translations was just saying that the Triforce has "cosmic power". That's it.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Snip

That's poor logic. There's nothing supporting that claim when in order to create a new timeline split, time travel needed to be done.

Can you give me one other example of a parallel dimension that's clearly larger than just a planet not being assumed to be a parallel universe? Because at this point, this looks like nothing more than a double standard here.

 

[Konaguna]

Bruh, Light world is a timeline, the statements for DW being it's equal are like everywhere you look at.

Also I looked up the Knaji and it really does say "universal" power chyest

 

[Konaguna]

if we assumed something needs to be explicitly stated to be a universe then a lot fo verses would get downgraded for that reason.

 

[TriforcePower1]

99% of the statements in Zelda are limited to Hyrule. Even the Light World is used as a synonym for Hyrule quite often. Assuming that it is a Universe is the highest end interpretation.

I mean, and...?

Light World = Dark World. I think we can both agree up till here, right? You've already seen the scans.

Dark World is already 1 or 2 UA, due to having a sun. Okay?

So that means that the Light World is 1 UA at bare minimum. Now, if you look at a dictionary, you'll see that, between all of the meanings of "World", nothing fits this size except for universe. "Sekai", the equivalent Japanese, also has the same meanings (you could say this is an "universal" word due to the fact that its translation nearly always carries the same meaning ovo I know, my jokes suck)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Cal

Literally every single dimension created in Castlevania. Most dimension creation feats in fiction.

Zelda is one of the few - very few verses - where literally every other realm fans go "OMG, PARALLEL UNIVERSE 3-A TRIFORCE".

 

[Konaguna]

Calm down Mang, no need to get upset, we can talk this out but we must not lose our nerves

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I can guarantee you every dimension creation feat in Castlevania doesn't have one-to-one existence down to the people. Note how no one claims that the Realm of the Ocean King is a parallel universe. If something is a mirror world, it's going to be a mirror world.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Also the translations was just saying that the Triforce has "cosmic power". That's it.

Which translation?

 

[TriforcePower1]

Note how no one claims that the Realm of the Ocean King is a parallel universe.

Don't tempt fate, Cal ovo

 

[Antvasima]

I agree that everybody need to try to be polite and respectful here.

 

[AshenCrow777]

ALTTP. Isn't really an outlier since if you remember correctly link used ALL 3 PIECES of the triforce and infuse them in his sword making it its equal since the MS nullifies all types of magic and only the true master sword and the golden master sword are stated to be the strongest version of it since all of the other one's are extremely weakened versions of it

 

[AshenCrow777]

And really people should really stop trying to downplay the size of hyrule, light world and etc the fact loz have more statements about actual consistent feats compared to other verses but each time someone brings up 3-A TF they are magically more critical and more nitpicky just ugh but anyways you all know im down for a 3-A triforce unless anyone aa actual counter arguments with scans then by all means if not welll you know....

 

[TartaChocholate]

Sooo, here's my opinion:

-Zelda: Lord father! The King of All Evil, Ganondorf is threatening Hyrule once again!

-King of Hyrule: Wait, the kingdom, the planet or me?

-Zelda: ...yes. *gets a boat thrown at her*

Ok, that sucked. I apologize to the forum and TFS fans. -_-;

But seriously, I for the most part agree with the Triforce Being 3-A due to the evidence provided, even if it is rather featless in itself, it still well interwined in the lore of the games. Also, given its the power of three 2-C goddesses who do have the feat of creating timelines, it does manage to escape being an outlier.

That said, I agree with Konaguna and Antavisma and Toscanito that Triforce-less Link being universal is an outlier. Mainly, because with Link it does happen it leaps enormously from all his feats and other scalings from all the games to be consistent with pretty much anything he's done or come against, making this an isolated case of him going against such power. As Konaguna said it could be argued that it was due to using the right gear against Ganon, but I agree with Ant that it's more of an inconsistency for the sake of the story (I mean, how could mortal create tools to fight a divine power so above them or did they have divine help from the goddesses? I can't recall.)

I do believe this could be fixed by making two keys; a 4-B for Triforce-less, his current tier, Link and a 3-A exclusively for Triforce-wielding Link.

 

[TriforcePower1]

"(I mean, how could mortal create tools to fight a divine power so above them or did they have divine help from the goddesses? I can't recall.)"

Well, the Master Sword was bathed into the three goddesses' flames.

 

[TartaChocholate]

That was Skyward Sword?

 

[TriforcePower1]

Yep

 

[TartaChocholate]

Figures, I missed that game because my Wii broke down just when I was starting.

Eh, ramblings aside.

Just to be concise, I am in for 3-A Triforce, but I don't think Link scales to it by himself, he does make the jump to 3-A once he gets the hands on it though. Those are my thoughts.

How much of the power of the godesses was poured in the Master Sword was clarified? Kinda like: "With the flames of the goddesses the Master Sword has their power" or something like that. And another issue is that a 3-A Master Sword (even weakened versions) should annihilate everything in the Zelda verse that Link fights except the Triforce users, which doesn't happen as monsters, bosses, Ganondorf and other big names without the Triforce nor its fragments do put a fight against Link where he visibly has to try, which creates its own inconsistency and all.

Then again, the powers given to the Master Sword could translate into the haxes it posseses rather than destructive raw power, like nope-ing Ganondorf's regen and such.

 

[TriforcePower1]

"And another issue is that a 3-A Master Sword should annihilate everything in the Zelda verse that Link fights except the Triforce users, which doesn't happen as monsters do put a fight against Link (even if he was using a very weakened version), which creates its own inconsistency and all."

That's textbook game mechanics.