The 3-A Triforce

[Eficiente]

Instead of repeating what I said, I invite you to re-read what I said about how those things aren't prove of it being the size of a universe. Argue that instead of repeating the same thing over and over again.

I can even see you doing it again, so I'm going to quote this part to that if someone does it.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I really don't want to partecipate, but I guess I can still help a bit.

There are two overworlds in A Link to the Past. The Light World that Link calls home is a colorful and abundant place, with green forests, arid bluffs, and crystal-blue waters. In the Dark World that mirrors the Light World, the terrain is much the same, but everything is cast in a somber hue.
	~ Hyrule Historia​

This world is like a darkened mirror of your own... It looks familiar, but in truth it is very different. Much like you four...
	~ Mage in FSA​

 

[Eficiente]

"In the Dark World that mirrors the Light World"

Now that's more reliable and clear.

 

[AshenCrow777]

So now can we get our 3-A triforce

 

[Konaguna]

Damn, Triforce you da real MVP

 

[Eficiente]

I personally agree with it now.

 

[Konaguna]

Now we just need Azzathoth to evaluate this, hopefully he will spare us some time soon enough

 

[Antvasima]

Would any other characters scale from this, or should we consider that as too great outliers?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Any True Force holder (several Links, Ganon in ALTTP, and Cia) as well as Anniversary!Vaati.

Triforce can show anything Low 2-C and under and not be an outlier with the amount of hype it got over thirty years. Thing has more omnipotent statements than actual omnipotents, zero anti-feats, and the magnum opus of tier 2s.

 

[Warren_Valion]

What is the proof that the Light World is the entire universe and not just the planet that Zelda takes place on?

 

[Antvasima]

@Cal

Has Link ever defeated a full Triforce Ganon? If so, that would probably mess up the power scaling.

Also, can somebody summarise why the Triforce should be 3-A specifically, and not, for example, Low 2-C?

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

ALTTP Link did. Granted, he's even now considered the strongest Link (which is why he's 4-B), and he did so with the strongest the Master Sword's ever been.

 

[Phoenix821]

Hyrule Warriors Link as well.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, we would likely have to consider that as outliers then. A 3-A Link seems like too much.

Also, what about my second question?

 

[Eficiente]

Also, can somebody summarise why the Triforce should be 3-A specifically, and not, for example, Low 2-C?

It turned the Light World into the Dark World, and supports its existence (in a sense). The Dark World mirrors the Light World, which is the universe.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Ant. You mean a 3-A Link without a Triforce, anyway.

Anyway, if I had an answer, I would give it to you. Given how much time is a factor in the Zelda universe, the fact that the Dark World is part of a separate space-time, and how the Triforce supports the reasons of the world, one of the reasons being time, imo it should be Low 2-C. But like, I'm pretty sure I'd get ostracized if I said that.

Or because it didn't destroy the Sacred Realm. Only reality warp'd it and sustains its existence.

@Warren. Because Light World has never been used as synonymous with the planet? Like, ever? Hyrule has, they've even just said "the planet/the world", but Light World has always, and I do mean always, been established as the dimension that the Golden Goddesses created.

@Everyone. I can't like, actually give my opinion on this. Not because I don't agree (you literally can't get more straight-forward than saying that the Dark World is a mirror to the Light World), but because well...you saw my previous attempt.

 

[Antvasima]

I am not sure if supporting the existence of a universe is Low 2-C, although creating an entire universal spacetime continuum from scratch would be.

 

[Wokistan]

If 3-A is only for the one specific iteration of link (and composite), and we already consider him beating a full triforce as legit, I don't see why 3-A for that link would be bad.

 

[Antvasima]

@Wokistan

Well, it is enormously beyond all other incarnations of the character. Perhaps we should consider if as plot-induced stupidity, or as that the Zelda writers had not yet defined the full scope of the Triforce's power when this happened?

 

[Wokistan]

Beating the complete triforce, when usually he has one piece and ganondorf has one piece, is already way stronger than every other link. Some links don't even leave tier 6 iirc. I'm not super knowledgeable on LoZ though, so take this with a grain of salt, but if we already accept the high end feat as a high end, it being a high end to a greater degree shouldn't end up altering much.

 

[Antvasima]

Maybe. I am not sure.

 

[Konaguna]

Tbh I always considered ALTTP Link beating Ganon to be PIS, Link should not be that strong without the Triforce at all

 

[Follow_Doctor_Freeman]

Let's wait before jumping to conclusions. Give Azzy and other reliable authorities a chance to voice thoughts, unless you've new information to share. I'll restate the pertinent matters for the sake of discussion.

1.) That the Dark World is equal in size to the Light Realm. [We all agree that this is the case.]

2.) That Triforce-powered Ganon can manipulate the enitrety of the Dark World, not just the planet. [I think we all agree that this is the case.]

3.) That AlltP Link scales to this power. [This seems to be the point of contention at the moment. 3-A vs Low 2-C can wait.]

Our options are that this is all legit and Link does scale or that this is an outlier for the complete Triforce or that the Triforce is this powerful but Link winning is PIS. I agree with the first case, myself; as Wokistan observed, the Links all vary widely in power, anyway, so the strongest one being of a considerable gap from direct feats done by others -- scaling is another matter -- isn't something that bothers me in particular, but it may others. Incidentally, I believe this is the same Link who was in Link's Awakening and defeated the Nightmare that almost overwhelmed the Wind Fish, which dreamed a realm with stars in it, so take that as you will. There are feats like the Skyword Sword one that may make this more consistent; I will deign authority on these matters (especially scaling) to Cal and Azathoth and such, though.

And don't worry, Cal; even your wrong arguements are politely and thoughtfully presented, so if people beat you down for that sort of thing, that's a problem with them, not you. This is just some silly entertainment website for nerds, after all.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Even if defeating Full TF Ganon is considered an outlier (which shouldn't given that the Master Sword is considered a counter to the TF in that game), Link gets the Triforce right after defeating Ganon, so he still remains at whatever tier the Triforce ends up.

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

"There are two overworlds in A Link to the Past. The Light World that Link calls home is a colorful and abundant place, with green forests, arid bluffs, and crystal-blue waters. In the Dark World that mirrors the Light World, the terrain is much the same, but everything is cast in a somber hue."

Just wanted to ask why stuff like this is considered proof of universal size.

I haven't been following these for a while, but hasn't the issue always been that TLoZ has never really been clear about the whole universe being warped or not?

This particular quote says "the Dark World that mirrors the Light World", but the context of the quote would imply "Light World" is referring to the actual overworld (the very first sentence is "There are two overworlds in A Link to the Past"), or planet if you want to make a relatively logical jump. Even in the "Light World" section right below this quote, the Light World is referred to as a country.

I guess I'm just not seeing what's been brought up here that really strongly supports 3-A/Low 2-C. In most other popular franchises with scenarios like this, don't we almost always wait for pretty explicit confirmation/very heavy suggestion before accepting something this vague, especially when the thing we're accepting is leaps and bounds above absolutely anything else in the entire franchise that aren't the beings who created the entire setting?

But idk, it's past 2am for me and I've just skimmed the more important replies, so you guys do what you want, I guess.

 

[Konaguna]

i'll reply to this when I get home im in school atm

 

[Azathoth_the_Abyssal_Idiot]

That's fine.

I won't be able to reply anyway for multiple hours because I'm seriously about to pass out.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Two things before I fully reply to Azzy's post.


Hyrule Historia stating again that they mirror each other (this is directly translated from Japanese)

First, even without all the scans stating that, it's pretty obvious that the reason they're called LIGHT and DARK World, is exactly to show that they're the same and opposite thing, as shown again by the geography and the overall concept of the two overworlds. Scans are obviously needed, but I think that what has been brought up is more than enough to prove this already implied connection.

Second, if it says that the Triforce warped the Sacred Realm/ Dark World, it means just that. If I say that I painted my room, it means that I painted the walls of my room, not just one or two. If a character is stated to be capable of destroying a wall, we don't say he can only destroy some bricks, if there's nothing else implying otherwise, obviously. So if the TF is stated to warp the Sacred Realm, we don't need to post things stating that it warped the whole thing, that's already implied in the first sentence.

@Konaguna Please, post on the OP the scan and the statements I made above.

 

[ToscanitoHarsh]

Wall of text ahead, my two cents:

To be fair, Antavisma does have a point here. This does feel a bit outlier-ish in a way at least regarding the cast itself. Please don't take it wrong and I don't want to step on Konaguna's and Triforcepower's admirable work and effort (just in case, I am being sincere on this, such dedication and research is truly commendable).

As Ant mentioned the jump with this potential upgrade is just massive, especially when explicit showings of power in the verse are nowhere near Universe level. Kinda give me the similar vibes to the whole deal of Mundus creating an universe in Devil May Cry; while the backup for the Triforce is much, much more well founded than that, the issue comes on how the scale of the feat just is way too above everything else the entire verse has displayed so far (then again, this may be a bad analogy, so my apologies if that's the case).

While Triforce having universal reach can be interpreted as universal and evidence and proof has been shown that it indeed said reach is most likely universal... it's not quite and explicit display of Universal Creation or warping in the way we see a whole universe right away, not an outright explicit feat, cinematic, in game event nor anything of that scale. How to put it....? Everything is by interpretations of the lore, breadcrumbs scattered over the history of the franchise put together to shape an explanation. IIRC even mentions of universe weren't explicit (if this has changed please correct me). So even if Universal Triforce is correct in that regard... are there any other things in the franchise that come close to that level? Something that supports that the Zelda games are capable of that outside this particular instance?

I really hate the outlier accusation, but ever since the 3-A debate began something has been bugging me, like... it seemed off regarding everything the games have displayed? I dunno, it's not incorrect, it's not means headcannon, it's actually very well founded and explained in official material as Konaguna and TriforcePower have provided, but the jump, the sudden leap in contrast with has been explicitely shown in games felt off to me... so I am just expressing my doubts. >_>;

Even if we do get 3-A/Low 2-C Triforce, Link defeating Ganondorf has its own issues, like how being universal by himself is way too above everything in the franchise, or how it has been argued the Master Sword is the key for his victory (such as why Ganon can't just use the Triforce's hax to defeat Link or such), or PIS (though I don't like that accusation, but we still need to be careful). And as far as I know, this is the only case where a Link beats a full triforce wielder, making it an isolated case of an universal defeat that could easily fall on inconsistency with the rest of the games. Hyrule Warriors has been confirmed to not be part of the main timeline verse, so I wouldn't say that counts in this regard.

Tbh, I think it's possible to have a 4-B Link without Triforce and a 3-A Link with Triforce as different keys. This would also give him more interesting matchup potentials. He can use his own strength and tools for Solar System busting duels and test his mettle and ultrahax against higher tiers.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I don't understand either. 99% of Zelda isn't even limited to a planet, but rather the country of Hyrule, with parallel realities being outright clarified as parallel version of Hyrule, and not the planet much less the universe.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I don't understand either. 99% of Zelda isn't even limited to a planet, but rather the country of Hyrule, with parallel realities being outright clarified as parallel version of Hyrule, and not the planet much less the universe.

Hyrule isn't just the name of the country.

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It was another world, the antithesis of Hyrule where the sunlight shines.

-Midna

An entire world here, for example, is called "the antithesis of Hyrule".

To think that this entire misconception is just because NoA can't stay consistent with the terms they use is incredible to say the least. Hyrule is kind of like how the word "America" is used today, used both to indicate the continent and the US. Just that in the Zelda verse, there's no "US", just "the KINGDOM of Hyrule". Again, Japanese is pretty consistent when separating the two.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

When talking about Demise, they literally go. "His power threatens all of Hyrule - No, the whole world!"

Meaning that world > Hyrule.

 

[TriforcePower1]

@Toscanito

The Zelda verse already has 2-C god tiers.

Di, Nayru and Farore, which directly created the Triforce.

 

[TriforcePower1]

When talking about Demise, they literally go. "His power threatens all of Hyrule - No, the whole world!"

Meaning that world > Hyrule.

Again, it can mean both. Also, where was this? I can bet the Japanese doesn't say the same thing.

 

[Dust_Collector]

While I'm not gonna join in on whether or not Hyrule means the world or whatever I do want to address one point.

"with parallel realities being outright clarified as parallel version of Hyrule, and not the planet much less the universe."

While the exact size of the various parallel realities is...debatable to say the least, the Sacred Realm/Dark World is absolutely larger than just the country of Hyrule as it contains a sun, it's just the main overworld you traverse in ALTTP that's the mirror of Hyrule. I'm not saying I 100% agree with the Sacred Realm being universal in size (Personally I'm neutral about it), but I just wanted to point out it's not just a country sized realm.

 

[Antvasima]

I think that Azathoth makes sense.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

@Matt. If Termina for example was simply an alternate version of Hyrule, it wouldn't have the moon that was about to wipe out the planet, a starry sky, and aliens coming down from who knows where in outer space.

 

[TriforcePower1]

I haven't been following these for a while, but hasn't the issue always been that TLoZ has never really been clear about the whole universe being warped or not?

No, the problem was mainly proving that the Dark World is universe sized, more than proving that the TF warped the whole thing.

This particular quote says "the Dark World that mirrors the Light World", but the context of the quote would imply "Light World" is referring to the actual overworld (the very first sentence is "There are two overworlds in A Link to the Past"), or planet if you want to make a relatively logical jump. Even in the "Light World" section right below this quote, the Light World is referred to as a country.

I can finally use the "Hyrule Encyclopedia is non-canon" argument without it backfiring. I thought the quote I found was from Hyrule Historia, but I was wrong. The scan still is.

I guess I'm just not seeing what's been brought up here that really strongly supports 3-A/Low 2-C. In most other popular franchises with scenarios like this, don't we almost always wait for pretty explicit confirmation/very heavy suggestion before accepting something this vague, especially when the thing we're accepting is leaps and bounds above absolutely anything else in the entire franchise that aren't the beings who created the entire setting?

IMO in other franchises people don't have to prove that literally anything in the verse is universe sized. I'd like to make a couple of examples, but let's not derail.

Btw, I'm going to post more supportive feats soon.

 

[TriforcePower1]

Supporting statement from the other thread:

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...This is a story you humans have passed down by word of mouth...

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...it was an unprecedented violently horrible battle...

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Suddenly, the ground broke open and there appeared evil figures

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They removed the smiles from the those in the land

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The evil ones burnt the forests, dried the springs, and killed the people

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Their purpose was for the one...the goddess-sama who protected the universal power

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The universal power...that was

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A legacy come from the gods, it fulfills all wishes and all desires

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The ancient goddess-sama received the ultimate power...

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The goddess-sama protected the universal power from the evil ones.

Plus, about Lorule, this is Hilda's speech at the end of the game:

"Let's talk about this country for a bit. Long ago, there was a triangle that if touched, grants any wishes in Lorule. It's called Triforce. People fought over for this power, resulting in kingdom's collapse. The kingdom of Lorule, to stop this, destroyed the Triforce. But it backfired..... Triforce is a power of God. It's existence is the pillar of the world, holding it. With Lorule, not having the pillar, is destined to collapse. This land needs Triforce."

If you look closely, you can see how the different terms are used in a way that makes perfect sense with what I said before, that Japanese (this is directly translated) is very consistent when using the terms "Hyrule/Lorule", "Kingdom" etc.

She says she wants to talk about the country of Lorule, so she starts telling about the Triforce, which was in Lorule (not kingdom), as it was in Lorule's Sacred Realm. The people of the country fought over it, and their fight caused the ruin of the kingdom. Again, she states that the kingdom (more exactly, the royals) destroyed it. The word "World" is used very loosely in the Zelda verse, that much I'll admit, but it can be easily understood by context. For example, here it refers to Lorule, made obvious by the whole "pillar" thing. Lastly she says that "Lorule" would collapse. Do I need to explain what does she mean with "Lorule" after this long explanation?

Btw, I can even show to you the rather inconsistent NoA translation, if you want.

EDIT: This isn't really a point, but I'm researching a bit on what "the reason of the world" mentioned by the Deku Tree means. Seems like a reference to Buddhism, with the reason being "the order that sustains the world" or something like that. It could be a support for 3-A Triforce, but I need to search a bit more.

 

[Konaguna]

Alright I had a pretty busy day, and I came back to a mountain of text, So I am just asking because I've kinda lost track, where are we standing?