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Terraria: Pervasive Speed and AP Issues

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@Keeweed It straight-up says that they are souls... so I can't imagine why not.

Minor nitpick regarding Fallen Stars? They fall from higher up than even the Floating Islands, which as far as I can tell from the fact the backdrop is actually at the threshold of space would be towards the edge of our atmosphere... which at least going by this would be a good 55 kilometers or so, if not more. Garen's Demacian Justice and The Last Dragonborn's Solar Flare arrows used similar values and wound up in the MHS-ish range, you could maybe take the speed of a "star" thrown by Starfury and pixel scale it to the Terrarian to get a speed value for the guy himself? I remember there being a cloud-to-ground lightning calc for Terraria at one point that turned up Massively Hypersonic, it'd probably be consistent with that.

I'll get back to the rest of this later hopefully?
 
I'm willing to contribute to this discussion.

Rawrxdfunny


Regarding lightning projectiles, I personally feel that the Vortex Pillar's lightning should only be considered as real lightning due to being able to summon what appears to be cloud-to-ground lightning in the background and summoning lightning bolts to attack the players via generating them from various vortexes. Then again, that sounds iffy considering that there appear to be no clouds in the background and the lightning bolts are generated randomly in thin air, so this is definitely subject to change.

Otherwise, I think that speed should be scaled from the Meteor Staff due to it summoning meteors that rain down from the sky. This could most likely range from ablative speeds at the very least (2,000-4,000 M/S) from a glance, to the atmospheric entry velocity for meteorites (11,000-72,000 M/S) if we take into account how the meteors in Terraria would work. If we factor in vortex Lightning as actually lightning and that it can move faster than these projectiles, then that could potentially make the MHS stuff consistent (If we're treating the meteors summoned from said staff as moving at 11-72 KM/S)

Likewise, relating to the currently speeds (MFTL+), I agree with removing it. It seems a bit outlandish to assume that the fallen stars and other identical projectiles are actually of that speed due to a statement regarding them (The starfury stars) coming from the heavens.

Anywho, if the 6-C feat is going to be purged at all, I calculated the mass of the destroyer at one point (2,187,051.73766 kilograms) but didn't apply hollowness to it yet (Given that the destroyer is a robot), so I'll just do it now:

I'll do 90% hollowness (Multiply by 0.1), and 80% hollowness (Multiply by 0.2):

90% hollow
0.1 x 2,187,051.73766 = 218705.173766 kilograms, which is larger than the king slime's mass.

80% hollowness
0.2 x 2,187,051.73766 = 437410.348 kilograms, still larger than the king slime's mass.

Likewise, the mass is most likely a lot heaver given that it's constructed in such a way that it casually bores through materials including stone and metal without harming itself in the process. The kinetic energy calculation should not be accepted due to guessing on the behalf of the velocity as well as not factoring in hollowness.

For the Dwarf Star level tiering (Via moving the moon closer to the Earth), I don't see anything wrong with its statistic placement. Pulverizing a cubic kilometer of solid stone can be City level in spite of not being the size of a city. If that analogy was not good at all, rotating the Earth fast enough can be Large Planet level (and even Dwarf Star level if it's fast enough) at times. But I can see your point (That the moon appears to be in its original position while the transition happens), but another person can argue that it implies such. Otherwise, I don't really care that much if it gets reverted to 5-C, but I'm just pointing that out.

On the topic for the "At least" rating due to 'being able to move the moon at a fraction of their power', I can disagree with that easily. There isn't really much supporting that aside from it happening while the player fights against them. Saying that the Terrarian is superior to them is also pretty iffy if we consider how they can get heavily they can get harmed (and even killed) by the pillars and their attacks. I think they should only be rated "At least (Insert rating here)" due to being able to fight with the moon lord, who is superior to all of the towers (Which, as from my knowledge, is being used on the profile right now)
 
@Saikou

6. Completely depends on the type of warp. If warping means completely messing up its geological structure, then sure. But if warping means corrupting/hallowing it and changing the inhabitants, then no, it isn't 5-B, it is whatever powers are being used on a planetary scale. Being able to effect things at a planetary range =/= destroying the planet.

7. It is not directly caused by the mechanical bosses. They do not contain Plantera like the Wall of Flesh does. Plantera does not contain to Golem. The Golem does not contain the Lunatic Cultist. If this was true, all the progression bosses are stronger than the one they contained, which isn't correct.

8. OK, bad analogy. Plantera is stronger, but to an undefinable margin. But that margin is exclusively undefinable.

9. It being a scene transition implies no real timeframe though. Using the timeframe of a scene transition is completely dubious and not a valid feat.

10. If you deny hyperbole, why isn't Terraria 3-A then? "Fury of the universe" is just as valid as a the Its a Wonderful Life quote assuming they aren't hyperbole, which they clearly are.

1. This was covered more after you posted.

2. That's fine that it is speeding up time. However, if the NPCs (down to literally everything, including worms) don't resist it to avoid showing them at super-speed, the same applies to the Terrarian and is equally invalid.

5. It isn't combat applicable because it clearly doesn't do damage. If it was supposed to be usable in combat, it would do damage. It is just a mining tool.

@Zainy

The Vortex's background is real lightning. Do you notice anything different about it from the portal-summoned lightning? It is instant.

Meteor Staff looks legit. We can probably calc and use that.

I honestly think 80% hollowness for the Destroyer is a lowball. It is a robot, not a mech, so it has no pilot or need for excessively hollowness. I personally think 50% could be fine.
 
Assaltwaffle said:
@Zainy

The Vortex's background is real lightning. Do you notice anything different about it from the portal-summoned lightning? It is instant.

Meteor Staff looks legit. We can probably calc and use that.

I honestly think 80% hollowness for the Destroyer is a lowball. It is a robot, not a mech, so it has no pilot or need for excessively hollowness. I personally think 50% could be fine.
Click to expand...
So we're on the same page for speed.

IIRC, from my knowledge, the meteors are actually summoned not far above the screen, hence why I'm going with a few preset velocities. Likewise, if we use the top of the stratosphere (50,000 meters off of the ground) for the top of the map, 11-17 km/s (The velocities listed on the calculations page for the meteors) would work well with this, as they still both reach within the MHS range.
 
I haven't played super recently, but I've got some 400 hours on the game (mostly on Xbox and more recently PS4).

I am definitely against 3-C, even if it weren't hyperbole we see nothing anywhere near that scale of power. The moon moving feat looks fine but I've never looked at those sorts of feats (aside from Bloodborne's) and I haven't got a clue for them.

SoL makes sense considering the presence of the Prism Stone, as it is literally a light-based attack and doesn't move hugely faster than most attacks.

Island level should stay. Wall of Flesh restrains two beings that can alter the entire Terrarian island, which as said above holds mountain ranges on it (and this alteration affects the areas below ground as well). This is my main issue with the debunking of the verse. 6-C very much makes sense. Bosses who scale should be considered 6-C.

I can accept 5-C God Tiers, 6-C high tiers (At least in the case of mechanical bosses, if another feat cannot be found), 7-C mid tiers (King Slime and stuff) and leave low tiers as is. Out of curiosity, since the Terrarian can use items to summon celestial events (Solar Eclipse and all that), would that support new ratings? I'm iffy on mechanical bosses halting the Solar Eclipse, but the Terrarian can definitely CAUSE it via equipment.
 
@Mr Bambu

SoL doesn't make sense outside of attack speed or dodging speed with the Last Prism and Black Belt, respectively. Last Prism's attacks are instant in-game.

"Altering" something doesn't not equal destroy. Island level for corrupting an area, even if it is the size of an island, is NOT valid. Turning things good or evil and changing the area isn't anywhere close to 6-C; it is hax with a several hundred kilometer range.

7-C to 7-B would not currently stay, as the Meteor Staff is the fastest legit projectile so far and is vastly slower than legit lightning. 6-C is still crazy to me, and I guess 5-C for the God Tiers isn't too absurd considering the Moon-moving they do, the Moon Lord's implications, and the original developer plans (yeah I know, author intent, but it is only supportive here).

The Summoning items don't scale to the Terrarian, as they are never used to attack or do literally anything but trigger the event.
 
Currently, D&D has Wish at 5-B for being able to cause global changes. I don't see this as being any different. Wall of Flesh restrains the beings who do this. SoL dodging and combat speed makes sense to me.

What is the lowest rating ever dished out for moon moving, out of curiosity? I've seen a lot of 5-As for it, but what could we give as a baseline?

Alright, I suppose I can accept that, though again that statement brings me to question a lot of feats on this wiki (creation feats don't scale to attack but are treated as such). Still, I'll call you the expert and drop it.
 
The bare minimum for moving the moon is 3.8522968e+28 joules, High 6-A+, though this is the bare minumum as its moving the moon literally 1 m/s faster than it naturally moves
 
@Drag It comes from math

Mass of the moon = 7.34767309 × 1022 kilograms

Speed of the moon = 1023.056 m/s

1 m/s faster would put it at (Round figures) 1024 m/s

KE = 1/2M x V^2 = 3.6738365e+22 x 1048576 = 3.8522968e+28 Joules

As this is literally the absolute lowest end possible and would only need to be slightly faster to be 5-C, 5-C is completely acceptable for moving the moon
 
Alright. So 5-C for moon moving seems fine considering it moved a noticeable amount.
 
Assaltwaffle said:
@Mr Bambu
SoL doesn't make sense outside of attack speed or dodging speed with the Last Prism and Black Belt, respectively. Last Prism's attacks are instant in-game.
Click to expand...
there's also the Raimbow cristal staff that has SoL attacks
 
I'm currently uploading videos on YouTube of a player fighting various bosses (Eye of Cthulhu, the Destroyer, and Spazmatism) with a meteor staff, so I can possibly do kinetic energy calculations later.

Anyhow, I think it could also be possible to do a KE calculation for the Wall of Flesh under the assumption that its width (Not its height or length, the two things you see on the screen) is identical to that of the radius of the island that the player is on (Assuming it is a circular island). Only problem is that it would definitely yield higher results than the kinetic energy of the destroyer.
 
Another minor nitpick, but @Mr. Bambu, Wish is probably getting turned into Unquantifiable soon, seeing as it's more or less literally just getting the Dungeon Master to make plot stuff happen, which is too screwy as far as fiction-reality interaction is concerned to properly quantify (that, and I can't find the original source for the rating.) So there's probably better examples to use for what you're referring to here.
 
I would disagree with the Dungeon Master thing, but alright. Just turns the high-tiers into 5-C to Low 5-B for the Demonweave thing. OFF TOPIC THOUGH, but my point still does stand despite the fact that my example is once again being reevaluated coz nothing on this wiki lasts that long. World altering affects have been considered to be AP equivalent in the past, this one is only being changed due to being reclassified as a plot device.
 
No, it isn't because it's a plot device, it is because it just isn't destruction. Things change on the Wiki because we constantly aim to improve, and this is not a negative thing. Not sure why you mentioned that at all tbh.
 
...referring to me, or to Mr. Bambu? I was never arguing that the Wall of Flesh's death "warping" the island equated to Attack Potency, just that there are instances where that correlation does exist.

My argument against counting it as an AP feat is that it "releases the ancient spirits of light and dark", i.e. the Hallow and the Corrupt, which are both independent of the Wall of Flesh, very gradually over time as opposed to in a single "attack". Even if it were still legitimate it doesn't scale to anything, as it only can happen specifically upon the WoF's death. It'd be a similar situation to say, SCP-682's death causing a universal collapse, I think, insofar as it shouldn't be used for their physical AP.
 
"Another minor nitpick, but @Mr. Bambu, Wish is probably getting turned into Unquantifiable soon, seeing as it's more or less literally just getting the Dungeon Master to make plot stuff happen, which is too screwy as far as fiction-reality interaction is concerned to properly quantify"


"No, it isn't because it's a plot device"


You whot. In all seriousness, I mentioned it because it is relevant. The wiki has precedents in treating alteration as AP. Furthermore, this alteration is a clearly physical thing- it changes physical properties about the world, such as corruption making the stone harder to break.
 
Here are some videos of the Terrarian fighting some bosses with the meteor staff for use in calculations or whatever.

Spazmatism:

Fireeye
Fireeye


Eye of Cthulhu:

Eyescary
Eyescary


The Destroyer:

Spookuworrm
Spookuworrm


I can probably make a kinetic energy calculation for the EoC right now, given that it - near the end of the video - charges about as fast as some of the meteors summoned from the staff.


Overlord775 said:
@Zany Actually, we know the width of the Wall of Fesh

it was shown in a trailerand it's not very large
Click to expand...
Then that makes it all the more consistent, I can probably apply that to a KE calculation after finding its mass (Which should be larger than the Eye of Cthulhu's) and velocity and probably get something within the tier 7 ranger higher than it. I can probably angscale to find its width (Or use the eye of cthulhu's width in this calculatio - which is 15 feet - given that its eyes are essentially the same size as it). I can then find its height and length after doing so and apply it to something like a cylinder formula and multiply it by 5 (Given that there are five of them). If I can't use the EoC's width, I can just as easily pixel scale to find the size of the WoF's eyes or mouth ingame and do that.
 
actually summoning meteors from the top of the atmposphere in 1 second is Sub-Relativistic. And the fury of the Universe=/=The power of the universe. Regardless, I agree with resistance to timehax being hakai'd
 
There's one more question I had. What is the reasoning for the selective intangibility durability ignoring that gets brought up in many Terrarian matches?
 
An attack that can hit multiple enemies in a line is not selective intangibility or durability negation
 
I'm pretty sure durability ignoring comes from the lightning aura staff (also selective intangible comes from it hitting through walls, which I believe other maces don't do)
 
There's also the golden shower and Ichor weapons which ignore enemy resists.
 
And solar eruption goes through walls, unlike every other mace in the game.
 
WeeklyBattles said:
An attack that can hit multiple enemies in a line is not selective intangibility or durability Negation
Click to expand...
the solar eruption can pass trough blocks, so it's intangible and intangible attacks ignore durability to an extent
 
There's still the lightning aura sentries you can spawn in with a staff that do ignore defense values on enemies not called Dungeon Guardian.
 
So are any of my points still in contention, or did Zany and I's back-and-forth sort this out?
 
Assaltwaffle said:
So are any of my points still in contention, or did Zany and I's back-and-forth sort this out?
Click to expand...
nah, the only thing left to sort out are the new stats for the Terrarian
 
I really agree things need to be changed. But maybe the Black Belt dodging stuff could be FTL?

I remember Saik doing a calc awhile ago using pixel-scaling about the Light Prism's attack being dodged which resulted in 11c...
 
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