Teon's 9-A Brackets, Round 4

[TheQuirkyBoy]

His stand, The Fool, is the one with Non-Corporeal

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Wait, is Iggy himself non-corporeal or what? His profile just lists non-corporeal.

His Stand is, that's how Stands are in JoJo.

 

[The_Wright_Way]

Okay, Gordon FRA then.

 

[Sixo_Bullets]

1. If he can't hurt The Fool he literally cannot overwhelm him. That makes literally no sense. He is invisible and non-corporeal, all of his attacks are going to just hit a wall that's not taking any damage. He can't even really aim at it to take advantage if it's invisible.

2. My guy. My ******* guy. That example you gave was against a character with Non-Physical Interaction after he had PUT HIS STAND OUT OF COMMISION. Gordon cannot do this as he lacks non-physical and nothing will make Iggy get overwhelmed. Your example is also contradicted by Pet Shop's fight where he stays strong the entire fight and even loses a limb, yet he's not overwhelmed.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

1. Yes he can, he can't hurt him, but the video with Jotaro clearly showed that Stands are easily capable of being overwhelmed in combat. Hurting someone =/= overwhelming them.Also, Gordon is an extremely intelligent guy, it wouldn't take long for him to figure out an invisible wall was trying to block his attacks.

2. Ok first off, you need to calm down. I'm getting a little peeved at your attitude. Again though, the Jotaro fights show they can get overwhelmed. Just because it didn't happen once vs. multiple examples of a much more adept Stand User getting overwhelmed does not mean it's impossible. Also, you say The Fool was out of commission, but the next scene shows him using The Fool again before he, I guess dies?

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Gordon: 2 (Cinnabar, Wright)

Iggy: 1 (Sixo)

I actually just finished watching the petshop fight. I was under the impression that Iggy was like Gaara in how he controlled his sand.

He's not. His stand is his source of sand, much like Gaara's gourd judging from his fights with Pet Shop and Vanilla Ice. So he doesn't actually seem like he can just create infinite sand. And he seems to attack by throwing his stand at things. Which won't really work here given the nature of Gordon's gun.

 

[Sixo_Bullets]

1. Can't overwhelm him if he's not doing any damage at all LOL. Most stands getting overwhelmed are them being hurt by characters with non-physical interaction too.

2. Sorry. And by out of comission I mean he put Iggy in a situation he didn't except as he countered a sneak attack that had literally no sign of being a sneak attack other than a detail of sunlight. He wouldn't be trying to surprise attack Gordan.

 

[Kiryu2012]

Giving this to Iggy for the Fool being able to protect him from a lot of Gordon's projectiles, as well as his smaller size making him a harder target.

 

[Psychomaster35]

Alright, best I use my scale here.

Attack:Gordon. See OP.

Durability:Gordon. That 809.3 megajoule feat of his is better than The Fools 46 kg.

Lifting Strength:Gordon. The Gravity Gun (Class 1) makes him have the advantage as he can simply throw around The Fool (Superhuman)

Stamina:Equal. Both are Superhuman.

Rangeossibly Gordon? His rating for some reason is Unknown. I mean, assuming he has guns, which in real life can usually travel 2200 meters compared to Fools 5.

Intelligence:Equal, I guess. Gordon is a gifted fighter, and Iggy is a good tactician.

Better Fighter:Equal. See intelligence.

Experience:Maybe Gordon, since he is older (27) while I can assume that Iggy is probably <15 years scaling to a real Boston Terrier.

Better arsenal:Gordon. His Gravity Gun can pretty much move Fool around, and the Poison Tranquilizer Crossbow? Count me in!

Conclusion:I think Gordon has this pretty easily. He can basically use his Gravity Gun to throw The Fool off then kill Iggy on the spot, and he is only 9-C physically. Winner:Gordon Freeman.

 

[TheQuirkyBoy]

Iggy FRA

 

[CinnabarManx421]

1. Again, damaging someone =/= overwhelming them. Look back at the Jotaro video, several times Jotaro gets attacked and his Stand is nowhere to be seen. Ex: The Gorilla shooting the fan at him, the guy hitting him with a rock, etc.

2. Okay, but I don't see how that helps him here, kinda just gives Gordon a more obvous target.

@Kiryu Gordon fights opponents smaller than himself all the time, Headcrabs, Bullsquids, Houndeyes, etc.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Gordon: 3 (Cinnabar, Wright, Psychomaster)

Iggy: 3 (Sixo, Kiryu, DaBigP)

 

[Sixo_Bullets]

"Iggy is 9-C physically"

But he's not?

Also you are using those categories and ignoring in every single one of them a lot of things and taking everything at face value. Gordon cannot touch The Fool or even manage to see him so how's he gonna do any of that. Iggy's not just like a Boston Terrior, he's the King of the Dogs and beat Pet Shop who is one of Dio's head men. See Dio's intel for scaling.

And uh, no. Not a better arsenal. His abilities are rendered moot by stand physics.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Any of Gordon's weapons would One-shot Iggy.

SAnd again, I've explained how Gordon can get around the Stand, and Iggy could never hit Gordon at that range.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

Actually, Psycho brings up good points with the range thing as well as the gravity gun.

Smaller size is also a variable as well.

 

[Sixo_Bullets]

1. Again, damaging someone =/= overwhelming them. Look back at the Jotaro video, several times Jotaro gets attacked and his Stand is nowhere to be seen. Ex: The Gorilla shooting the fan at him, the guy hitting him with a rock, etc.
2. Okay, but I don't see how that helps him here, kinda just gives Gordon a more obvous target.

@Kiryu Gordon fights opponents smaller than himself all the time, Headcrabs, Bullsquids, Houndeyes, etc.

-And these characters have non-physical interaction. Jotaro couldn't use his stand for specific reasons and he doesn't even use it to block attacks like that in every fight. If he used his stand against Steely Dan initially he would've killed his grandfather.

What. How on earth did you deduce this

 

[Sixo_Bullets]

Stop bringing up points that are completely moot. You have agreed that you know what non-corporeality is, have not proven that Gordon can even touch non-corporeals, and your reasons for Iggy being overwhelmed are incredibly situational.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

NPI doesn't matter here, they still show they can get around a Stand regardless.

Gordon fights small enemies constantly, and he'd be out in the open anyway so he could easily see him.

 

[Kiryu2012]

Iggy can also do what he tried doing to Vanilla Ice and hide while disguising the Fool as a random person, then attack Gordon when the latter's guard is down.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Stop bringing up points that are completely moot. You have agreed that you know what non-corporeality is, have not proven that Gordon can even touch non-corporeals, and your reasons for Iggy being overwhelmed are incredibly situational.

They're not though? You have yet to prove that The Fool could possibly block the barrage of attacks Gordon can send his way when his Sand defence is useless.

 

[Sixo_Bullets]

NPI doesn't matter here, they still show they can get around a Stand regardless.
Gordon fights small enemies constantly, and he'd be out in the open anyway so he could easily see him.

Lol, no you haven't. Your reasons for him getting around the stand are, again, situational. And the characters who do it in Jojo can interact with the stand so lol good luck with that.

His stand defense is not useless. Gordon cannot spam his gun to an unholy extent to the point of where he can break it, he has to charge it and he has limited ammo. Iggy has an unlimited amount of sand. Put two and two together.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Lit pointed out above that he does not have Infinite Sand and either way, it gets instantly destroyed by Gordon's weaponry. I still see no possible way teh Stand can block everything gordon can send at him.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

I mean, to be fair, Gordon's bullets have a better fire rate than Pet Shop's ice missiles, and Iggy was hard pressed to avoid those, stand or no. I think you're ignoring what Gordon legitimately brings to the table.

Iggy: Non Physical interaction paired with sand manip gives him great offense and support. And his stand being non-corporeal makes it so Gordan can't see any of his attacks coming.

Gordon: Has the legitimate versatility advantage with numerous guns, gravity manip, matter/anti-matter manip, and a likely range advantage. He also has the AP advantage.

Key points

• Non-physical interaction means Gordon can't see or harm the stand. He can't even sense it, and at best can guess where it is based upon the sand.

• Because the stand can physically interact through its sand with Gordon, basic physics says that Gordon should be able to interact with something tangible like sand that can harm him (Though, Jojo logic may be different, who knows, I'm not sure how SBA treats this)

• Matter manip bullets can cut right through physical sand, and Gordon likely has a range advantage

• Iggy's small size makes him a smaller target to hit. And his style of running and attacking makes landing a blow more difficult

• Gordon has a superior rate of fire to pet shop who gave Iggy trouble

Seems like a solid debate.

 

[Sixo_Bullets]

Lit was also a bit wrong in that instance. His stand can recreate itself infinitely and it has an infinite amount of sand to do that. Iggy's way of blocking is also non-corporeal so yeah Gordon's not shooting through that.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Well, Iggy's small size doesn't matter as much since Gordon's fought lots of smaller enemies before, Headcrabs, Bullsquids, Houndeyes, etc.

 

[Kiryu2012]

Well, Iggy's small size doesn't matter as much since Gordon's fought lots of smaller enemies before, Headcrabs, Bullsquids, Houndeyes, etc.

Those enemies don't really use Iggy's fighting style, though, and they typically have a more head-on approach in combat. Iggy doesn't really fight like that.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

If I'm comparing Iggy to Gaara, than Iggy has shown himself capable of using far less Sand than Gaara. Most I've seen him use is the amount he used to shield himself underwater when fighting petshop. I'm sure if Iggy could create an infinite amount of sand, he would've done so. He even notes that he couldn't escape Petshop's surprise ice attack explicitly because his stand was acting as a dome for him.

So no, Iggy doesn't have access to literal infinite amounts of sand. He has access to sand proportional to the size of his stand.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Basically, I see no way that The Fool is gonna be able to block the amount of AoE damage Gordon can dish out on Iggy. It would only be a matter of time before Iggy took a hit.

 

[Sixo_Bullets]

Why are you comparing Iggy to Gaara? That's an association fallacy. And uh, I know? I said his stand was an infinite source of recreating itself infinitely, not something like Gaara where he throws stand and all that. Gordan cannot put the stand down and get rid off of all the sand, it has the capability to recreate itself infinitely and will outlast his ammo and likely overcome his charging of the weapon at some point. Also, why are we assuming Iggy is going to just sit there and not do anything at a range? He always attempts to close a distance with his stand and he'd learn Gordan's style and just use the sand he has around that. He's not a random Boston Terrier.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Also, just found this on the JoJo wiki; "To use a Stand, the User has to consciously summon it. Likewise, to use its power, the User has to command their Stand. Thus, Stand Users are still vulnerable to sneak attacks. This does not apply to automatic Stands which act by themselves." So basically, if Iggy were to be caught off guard, as he would be due to Gordon's absolutely massive arsenal, The Fool wouldn't be able to block everything in time since Iggy has to command it to do an action.

 

[Sixo_Bullets]

Iggy's ability is thought based so uh no Gordan charging and shooting bullets at him isn't going to overwhelm his ability to block.

 

[Kiryu2012]

I feel like Iggy could try to close the distance while distracting Gordon with the Fool, then try overpowering and suffocating him with his sand.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Summoning it is thought based, and even then, it's easy for thoughts to get jumbled when you're under a constant barrage of attack. Point is, he can't defend everywhere at once, so no, he's not gonna be able to block Gordon forever.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

Also, Gordon heavily abuses range in character, and Iggy would only expose himself mor etrying to get close, so no, he can't get in range to Gordon.

 

[Sixo_Bullets]

Um, what? Gordan's abilites and actions of shooting register as thoughts in Iggy's mind and he instantly uses his stand to block it. How's he getting barraged? Also Gordan's win-con that you're claiming is a chargeable, less-spammable projectiles. Iggy easily deals with that. Also please, Gordan has limited ammo. He CAN block forever in that instance.

 

[CinnabarManx421]

He can't tell the Stand to block from every direction, so no, that doesn't work. Also, they take like 1-2 seconds to charge up, and then they fire a constant barrage that would be extremely dificult to block.

 

[Kiryu2012]

I doubt Gordon's gonna be able to deal with the Fool's sand once he starts running out of ammo and his suit takes excessive damage.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

I wasn't comparing him to Gaara in terms of, "Oh, he's just like Gaara." But more like how does their sand manipulation compare to each other as a point of reference, and I explicitly stated earlier that his sand manipulation does not work like Gaara's, hence such an association fallacy cannot apply here.

While Iggy can continuously recreate his stand, his actual supply of sand is limited. He can recreate it if it's destroyed or dispersed, but he can't go beyond that amount is the point. He can't manipulate as much sand as he ca muster like, say, Gaara can. A crucial difference, as his defense is far from impervious, as seen from petshop being able to pressure him with firing 3-6 ice missiles at once.

Also, speed is equalized. So can't Gordon also just run and shoot?

Iggy's main advantage seems to come from the fact that Gordon can't see or interact with his stand.

Also, since stands can affect physical people, how does that work under SBA?

 

[Sixo_Bullets]

Yeah it is an assocation fallacy if you say "It's like Gaara."

Why are we forgetting the stand is non-corporeal, he's not shooting it out. It's just covered in sand, not comprised of it in the actual form.

 

[Litentric_Teon]

That's literally false. Otherwise, any comparison someone makes is an association fallacy. "It's like Gaara" actually takes out of context the entirety of what I said, and is a false description of what I previously wrote.

That's why I'm asking about the SBA. Since stands can interact with physical objects (humans) how does that work with it being Non-corporeal?