Tensura LN revision: Possible Regeneration downgrade for rimuru tempest

[imZer0Null]

This was posted by @Thunderian as the 99th post of the thread. "Copy" is not past tense.

Uhmm... English is not my first language, so please correct me if I am wrong, but in the sentence, "...it won’t pose an issue since a copy of the skill has been made.", the word "copy" is a noun, not a verb, as indicated by the indefinite article "a", and therefore does not have any tense, while the word "made" is a verb and is in the past tense.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Summary so far:
Rimuru was given HGR based on this statement by Raphael

That even if I didn’t use “Gluttonous King Beelzebub” to cancel the attack, I wouldn’t be killed even when hit by “Melt Slash” head on?
<<Answer. Of course not. Speculate to consume massive amount of magicule, however, the physical body can be instantly revived through “Endless Regeneration”.>> (Volume 7)

As melt slash is able to erase cells, soul, skills and even information (the most fundamental aspect of existence in tensura).
However the statement says rimuru would regenerate from a skill (endless regeneration) and melt slash is supposed to be able to destroy skills and information. Therefore this statement doesn't qualify for HGR as stated by a staff in this comment in a separate thread, complete destruction and not partial destruction is needed to qualify.

Tensura supporters argue that rimuru is able to recreate his destroyed skills via this statement

Report. Relaunching the ultimate skill Belzebuth.
Just as the professor reported that to me, Belzebuth swallowed up all the droplets of murderous light raining down from above. In a moment, they were all gone. Yikes. Set this thing to full blast, and it was a real monster. Even the paladins stared wide-eyed at me, shocked at the sight of all those missile blasts disappearing before their eyes.
But…wait a second. Didn’t I “sacrifice” Belzebuth when I fought Hinata just now?

However this is further discredited by this

Understood. The ultimate skill Belzebuth, Lord of Gluttony, was indeed sacrificed, but a copy had been backed up, so it was not a problem to reactivate.
Huhhh? Backed up? And why was Raphael using the past tense there? You gotta tell me about this crap, man! I thought I had lost that thing forever.

Different translation provided by tensura supporters

Didn’t I just sacrifice “Gluttonous King Beelzebub” in order to deal with Hinata’s attack…
<<Answer. It indeed sacrificed Ultimate Skill “Gluttonous King Beelzebuth”, but it won’t pose an issue since a copy of the skill has been made.>>

These show that Raphael/rimuru don't directly recreate skills but rather create a copy before its destruction and reactivate..

There's then a burden of proof for tensura supporters that in the event Rimuru does recreate his skills, they have to provide proof of statements or feats that show he can recreate skills from non existence as assuming he can is NLF.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Regarding the " godly regeneration isn't immortality 4 but 3" arguments, this is what I found.

https://vsbattles.com/threads/specifying-immortality-resurrection-healing-capability-with-regeneration-level-staff-only.134804/post-4657712

https://vsbattles.com/threads/specifying-immortality-resurrection-healing-capability-with-regeneration-level-staff-only.134804/post-4657605

As seen from discussions going on in that thread with staff, depending on the context Godly regeneration qualifies for type 4 immortality.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

the "but with unknown time period" isnt needed, the scan which have been sent numerously in this thread stated that Endless Regeneration can regenerate instantly

So it was done via skill then even if it is instant Regeneration still only qualify for Mid Godly regeneration.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

What new arguments have been made since I last responded?

The arguments are like just so some character can slightly Regeneration from damaged concepts he can definitely Regeneration from complete eraser which still lacks the proof from Tensura supporters.

Well All I have to say is Regenerating from When a character is alive and regenerating from complete eraser (from nothingness) is different.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it seems like this is just going in circles.

Yeah it is. So i will just Give my take.

I am suggesting that it should be downgraded to Mid Godly regeneration as burden of proof from Tensura supporters to show Rimuru can Regenerate from nothing. Also Rapheal statement even backs up he needs endless regeneration skill to regenerate. Which contradictory with completely getting erased. Whatever the reason it's pretty much obvious Rimuru getting not erased completely but endless regeneration skill definitely will be alive even after taking direct hit from Melt Slash according to Rapheal statement.

Either way as OP states there is no other proof for Rimuru getting Regenerated from nothing and only statement found is he can Regenerating from direct hit from Melt Slash thanks to endless regeneration skill which would be still there ( which contradictory with HGR).

Also Claiming he can Regenerate that endless skill from nothing is NLF and lack of proof.

 

[Catpija]

So it was done via skill then even if it is instant Regeneration still only qualify for Mid Godly regeneration.

Mid Godly isnt strong enough to regenerate erased information, if that the case then Rimuru would die if he get struck by Melt Slash.

There is only 2 option here, either possibly High Godly, or just straight up High Godly. either way im fine with both but the justification for "unknown time period" should get removed

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Mid Godly isnt strong enough to regenerate erased information, if that the case then Rimuru would die if he get struck by Melt Slash.

Well there are few characters who can Regenerate theirs fundamental concepts Getting damages/ portions of information getting erased & still mid godly regeneration. I don't want to bring other verses into this.

There is only 2 option here, either possibly High Godly, or just straight up High Godly. either way im fine with both but the justification for "unknown time period" should get removed

Ok I won't be arguing for Unknown time period but definitely disagree with High godly.

The arguments are like just so some character can slightly Regeneration from damaged concepts he can definitely Regeneration from complete eraser which still lacks the proof from Tensura supporters.

Well All I have to say is Regenerating from When a character is alive and regenerating from complete eraser (from nothingness) is different.

Yeah it is. So i will just Give my take.

I am suggesting that it should be downgraded to Mid Godly regeneration as burden of proof from Tensura supporters to show Rimuru can Regenerate from nothing. Also Rapheal statement even backs up he needs endless regeneration skill to regenerate. Which contradictory with completely getting erased. Whatever the reason it's pretty much obvious Rimuru getting not erased completely but endless regeneration skill definitely will be alive even after taking direct hit from Melt Slash according to Rapheal statement.

Either way as OP states there is no other proof for Rimuru getting Regenerated from nothing and only statement found is he can Regenerating from direct hit from Melt Slash thanks to endless regeneration skill which would be still there ( which contradictory with HGR).

Also Claiming he can Regenerate that endless skill from nothing is NLF and lack of proof.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

What new arguments have been made since I last responded?

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it seems like this is just going in circles.

Rimuru is not a Primordial, period.

You can’t prove that Endless Regeneration is a contradiction, nor that it takes time to utilize.

Melt Slash destroys information, cells, and souls -> Rimuru recreates Beelzebub -> Raphael says Endless Regeneration could could’ve brought him back -> Endless Regenerate states it can bring someone back after the shattering of their spiritual body (information) -> Melt Slash destroys information, cells, and souls -> Ad-infinite.

There is no contradiction, there is no “missing context”, nor any other imaginary inconsistency. Every single thing that Raphael has said has lined up.

There’s a new argument that’s trying to be used to debunk Regeneration in saying that Raphael “backed up” Beelzebub, and that discredits it from being Regeneration, which subsequently ignores the fact that Ultimate Skills upscale Unique Skills, which are the shape of the mind and soul. In my view, that negates nothing. Here is my other summary:

Hinata hits Rimuru with Melt Slash, the sword-art version of Disintegration:

She casts “Disintegration”. This power begins to gather on the empty left hand of Hinata, giving off a bright shine.

The sparkling particles intertwine to create a fantasy-like scenery.

Then Hinata imbues that light onto the body of her Moonlight Rapier.

—Her left hand slowly caresses the body of her sword.

The preparation is done.

She has infused her strongest magic with her sword art.

This is the technique that shall slash through all things in the world.

“Come now, have you made your resolve?”

“Bring it on!”

“Then take this—Melt Slash!”

Hinata finishes her words and turns into a beam of light, quickly approaching Rimuru. (Volume 7)
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Disintegration targets the cells, and souls:

“Let me provide you a prayer to the divine. I hope and desire for the power of the holy spirits. Listen to my appeal and overcome all in your way! Disintegration!!” The request, delivered in Hinata’s beautiful voice, was granted. The resulting show of force was literally divine, enough to crush all physical and spiritual presences within its defined space. It was the ultimate in targeted, destructive magic, emitting flashes of white light as it poured from Hinata’s hands to the circle. It sped out at thousands of miles per hour, almost at light speed, as its holy power made cells and souls vanish without a trace. It was more than enough to make the Glutton disappear, not affecting the space around it at all. (Volume 5)
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This is important, because all physical matters in TenSura is composed of information:

An ‘information particle’ was a substance smaller than even ‘spirit particle,’ and was close to having no mass at all. All matter in the world had to contain ‘information particles.’ (Volume 11)

As well as the soul:

Whether it belongs to a human being or a monster, all souls have a set quality and quantity. It is composed of matter known as data particles, and through managing and applying certain forces to them, it’s possible to control life and death to some extent.
The souls of plants and animals house only a very tiny amount of energy. Human souls, meanwhile, have tons and tons. We’ve already confirmed that a certain amount is given to everyone equally, and the ability to fully hardness that soul energy leads to the manifestation of soul powers—or what we call special skills. This data, engraved in your soul since birth, is the source of those powers.
So is the data written directly onto this energy? Not exactly. First, there’s the ego, a set of amorphous wavelengths within the soul, and the group of data particles that surrounds it. This is known as the heart, and that’s where all the data is stored. The crystallized energy that covers this heart is what we call the soul. (Official Translation of volume 13)
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And mind:

Assuming that the mind and spirit are also information, it’s not impossible. (Volume 19)

This is stated recursively, as Unique Skills are the shape of the mind, created only by a strong soul, that are engraved within the soul:

There are times when the mold of one's mind and its powerful wishes give shape to skills. This is the nature of what we call "Unique Skills". The process is impossible without a mighty soul, but among such beings some can even have two or three of them. [...] A Unique Skill is the shape of the mind itself.

And once more, Skills themselves are information:

Skill Bank…information (data) of acquired skills is instantly reproduced. (Volume 16)

Important to note, the claim “was close to having no mass at all” doesn’t exist in the Japanese.

Rimuru uses his absorption skill, Beelzebub, in order to survive Melt Slash:

<<Report. Attack can be counteracted by sacrificing Ultimate Skill “Gluttonous King Beelzebub”, suggest adapting said strategy.>>
Even at this point, Wisdom King Raphael-sama is still reliable.
But honestly, it will be a huge loss to sacrifice “Gluttonous King Beelzebub”, but right now I can only follow this instruction. Since it is the solution suggested by Raphael that has the highest rate of success, I should not have any hesitation. (Volume 7)
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However, this was a ploy in order for Raphael to appraise the ability, and reveals that he would’ve survived, irregardless:

—That even if I didn’t use “Gluttonous King Beelzebub” to cancel the attack, I wouldn’t be killed even when hit by “Melt Slash” head on?
<<Answer. Of course not. Speculate to consume massive amount of magicule, however, the physical body can be instantly revived through “Endless Regeneration”.>> (Volume 7)

The key issue, and or supposed contradiction, is that op suggests this is an outlier, because if Skills [Endless Regeneration] are info, and Info is erased with Melt Slash, how would Rimuru survive? The assertion is that Rimuru cannot regenerate from being destroyed. Well, to start off, let’s look at the actual Skill, Endless Regeneration:

Enhanced version of Extra Skill Ultraspeed Regeneration. Works even quicker than its previous version and can now even regenerate from having the Spiritual Body shattered.

Very clear cut, he can survive from having his Spiritual Body “shattered”. At this point in the story, this would be the only move that could do so (along with Dead End Rainbow, but that’s a sword ability, and not a Skill, not to mention Hinata was not using that sword in the fight), and it’s blatant that Rimuru could recover from this, as cited by Raphael, and the fact that he immediately brought back Beelzebub.

We have established that Skills are information, and Endless Regeneration can revive the spiritual and physical body, even if they are “shattered”, which furthers the point it is Regeneration, not Resurrection.

 

[Antvasima]

I still roughly got the same opinions.

What new arguments have been made since I last responded?

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but it seems like this is just going in circles.

Okay. I suppose that we should apply your previous conclusions and then close this thread then.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Okay. I suppose that we should apply your previous conclusions and then close this thread then.

So is Rimuru Regeneration gonna change or not ?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

The point I was trying to make is that Rimuru being able to regenerate without his skill completely destroyed isn't farfetched, given the overall context.

No, Elizhaa disagrees with OP.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Elizha not really disagree with the OP she said it's not far fetched by comparing primordial demons Regeneration but after me clarifying both are different she never really refuted anything

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

I’m not going to argue with you, I’ll let them decide.

 

[Ruphas_Mafahl123]

Elizha not really disagree with the OP she said it's not far fetched by comparing primordial demons Regeneration but after me clarifying both are different she never really refuted anything

Please, stop, at this point you are going in circles.

If the staff and the majority of regular users disagree there is little you can do.
This how democracy works unfortunately

 

[Antvasima]

So should I close this thread, or should anything be applied here first?

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

So should I close this thread, or should anything be applied here first?

I would say close it, given more people disagree, but I have no issue waiting for Elizhaa, given their comment I left earlier, where they say our perspective is not farfetched, which is to keep HGR.

 

[Dereck03]

So should I close this thread, or should anything be applied here first?

The best thing would be to close it, Elizhaa clearly disagree with the OP and also and Elizhaa would like to add something else besides, then Elizhaa can reopen the thread and also most here disagree with the OP.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Please, stop, at this point you are going in circles.

If the staff and the majority of regular users disagree there is little you can do.
This how democracy works unfortunately

Hm I guess so can't do anything against numbers.

So should I close this thread, or should anything be applied here first?

Seems fine to me but ask the OP once i don't have any problem closing it.

 

[Antvasima]

@Elizhaa @Tatsumi504

Should we close this thread now?

 

[Tatsumi504]

@Elizhaa @Tatsumi504

Should we close this thread now?

Id like to see if elizhaa has anything else to add, if not I guess it can be closed

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. No problem.

 

[Elizhaa]

It seems fine to close.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I will do so. Thank you to everybody who helped out here.