Tensura LN revision: Possible Regeneration downgrade for rimuru tempest

[Tatsumi504]

You should have realized that if Rimuru died it would contradict regeneration instead. Because it will be more to Resurrection, than Regeneration.

In fact, Rimuru regenerated from the complete destruction of the physical body, soul, to information. Because this is regeneration, not resurrection.

And you will do well to know that all godly forms of regeneration = immortality type 4 (resurrection) with the regeneration tier denoting what level of resurrection it was. Lord! ‍♂‍♂

 

[Tatsumi504]

And the only reason said new thread was even allowed to stay up is because of the fact there was new arguments, so what is your point?

There is no point. It was simply a reference to what intrinsic skills are. You're the one trying to make a point out of me using the old thread, which I didn't.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

There is no point. It was simply a reference to what intrinsic skills are. You're the one trying to make a point out of me using the old thread, which I didn't.

Which are made of information. As the physical body is made of information. Which debunks nothing.

Rimuru or Raphael would have to be alive or in existence to recreate "endless regeneration"

Now, prove this positive claim, or your assertion falls in on itself.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Are you aware of what the word “intrinsic”, means? Inherent. There is no consciousness effort to preform. This is very clearly shown by Rimuru’s other skills, Multilayer Barrier & Demon Lord’s Haki, being passive.

Lemme propose this.
Drop all arguments surrounding intrinsic skills. It was simply mentioned as a reference to why the statement wouldn't qualify for low godly but you've cleared that up already.

Now concentrate on explaining why rimuru would regenerate with endless regeneration when it should be erased by melt slash without any context of recreating endless regeneration first.
Also drop feats off rimuru recreating a skill when he doesn't exist in the first place.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Now, prove this positive claim, or your assertion falls in on itself

prove that they are capable of this first

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

Drop all arguments surrounding intrinsic skills. It was simply mentioned as a reference to why the statement wouldn't qualify for low godly but you've cleared that up already.

Nope, because your argument now hinges on that, I will continue to grandstand it until you answer.

Now concentrate on explaining why rimuru would regenerate with endless regeneration when it should be erased by melt slash without any context of recreating endless regeneration first.

Intrinsic, as I have recurrently told you.

prove that they are capable of this first

No, I didn’t make a positive claim. I won’t prove a claim YOU made. I will not let this specific argument stop until you decide to answer, until you decide to prove your assertion that you made.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

And you will do well to know that all godly forms of regeneration = immortality type 4 (resurrection) with the regeneration tier denoting what level of resurrection it was. Lord! ‍♂‍♂

Regeneration = Immortality Type 3
Resurrection = Immortality Type 4

There is a difference where Immo type 4 must die to be able to be reincarnated or resurrected, not regenerate.

Resurrection is defined as coming back to life from death or being reborn after death (Reincarnation).

Whereas Regeneration is more like Regrowing or recreating a lost part. Like regrowing skin tissue after being injured, it regenerates. Means Low-Godly and above it regenerates or re-creates what has been lost, such as the soul, physical body, or fundamental aspects.

Please differentiate it.

 

[DaReaperMan]

@Tatsumi504 You cannot say things as jurassic as "but they still need to be alive to do it!" Without evidence. You said that Milly here needs to prove your claim, so you have put forward a Burden of Proof fallacy.

I also disagree with this thread but I don't intend to debate.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I guess calling some staff would be better it's circling back and forth.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Nope, because your argument now hinges on that, I will continue to grandstand it until you answer.

My argument doesn't hinge on that ‍♂. Intrinsic skills being mentioned was to discuss whether it qualifies as low godly.
Intrinsic skills being not just a part of the body has been clarified. It indeed qualifies for low godly but the main contradiction still exists. How can't you understand this?

 

[Tatsumi504]

You cannot say things as jurassic as "but they still need to be alive to do it!" Without evidence.

I fully understand this. But the context given in the statement insinuates the skill that'll revive him wouldn't even need to be recreated in the first place which is why I brought up that argument.

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

My argument doesn't hinge on that ‍♂. Intrinsic skills being mentioned was to discuss whether it qualifies as low godly.
Intrinsic skills being not just a part of the body has been clarified. It indeed qualifies for low godly but the main contradiction still exists. How can't you understand this?

Prove the claim you made, I don't care to answer what else you're referring to.

 

[Worthless]

Didn't it said in volume 13 that most intrinsic skill are etched to their physical body which mean destroying their physical body would also results of their intrinsic skill being destroyed so what I'm saying is it seems that Endless regeneration can revive itself.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Didn't it said in volume 13 that most intrinsic skill are etched to their physical body which mean destroying their physical body would also results of their intrinsic skill being destroyed so what I'm saying is it seems that Endless regeneration can revive itself.

The problem being "it seems". Its speculation but its the only line of thought that refutes the contradiction.

Unfortunately the others aren't following that line of thought and instead saying rimuru or ciel would recreate endless regeneration when they don't exist.

 

[Tatsumi504]

I'll just wait until staff show up to evaluate it

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

He’s incapable of proving his claim, because he knows it doesn’t exist, and would debunk his entire thread.

 

[Tatsumi504]

He’s incapable of proving his claim, because he knows it doesn’t exist, and would debunk his entire thread.

You are also incapable of proving that they can recreate skills while they aren't in existence

 

[Milly_Rocking_Bandit]

You are also incapable of proving that they can recreate skills while they aren't in existence

Burden of Proof fallacy; I won’t prove your claim, that you made. So, you’re at a disadvantage here.

Prove it, or your thread bares no structure.

 

[donegbe]

You are trying to ask whether <endless regeneration> could come back on it's own?? Well
The comment says intrisic skills are part of the body, the definition of the regeneration skill is to regenerate the body after the spiritual body(which is beyond the physical body) is shattered.
So you need to change your argument at this stage.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

You are trying to ask whether <endless regeneration> could come back on it's own?? Well
The comment says intrisic skills are part of the body, the definition of the regeneration skill is to regenerate the body after the spiritual body(which is beyond the physical body) is shattered.
So you need to change your argument at this stage.

He is saying endless regeneration is part of physical body* but how that skill will work if Rimuru completely gets erased from existence. If Rimuru is completely getting erased from Existence then physical body also gets erased so that skill gets erased along with it. So Regenerating from complete eraser of melt Slash doesn't make sense if skill itself doesn't exist because it's nowhere states even that skill gets Regenerated from nothing. It will be burden of proof from Tensura supporters show how that skill will be Regenerated from no information or concepts left when Rimuru completely wiped out of existence.

 

[DaReaperMan]

He is saying endless regeneration is part of physical body* but how that skill will work if Rimuru completely gets erased from existence. If Rimuru is completely getting erased from Existence then physical body also gets erased so that skill gets erased along with it. So Regenerating from complete eraser of melt Slash doesn't make sense if skill itself doesn't exist because it's nowhere states even that skill gets Regenerated from nothing. It will be burden of proof from Tensura supporters show how that skill will be Regenerated from no information or concepts left when Rimuru completely wiped out of existence.

You made the claim. So prove your own claim, or this CRT will be closed as one big Burden of Proof fallacy.

 

[DaReaperMan]

Seriously. That's all we ask. Prove your own claim, because if you don't, you'd be yeeting Sagan's standard right out the window. Extraordinary Claims require Extraordinary Evidence, of which you have given 0 scans to back up your claim on Endless Regeneration.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Seriously. That's all we ask. Prove your own claim, because if you don't, you'd be yeeting Sagan's standard right out the window. Extraordinary Claims require Extraordinary Evidence, of which you have given 0 scans to back up your claim on Endless Regeneration.

By the context of the statement endless regeneration wasn't erased. It's as simple as that, there's no claim to prove.
No context was given about reviving endless regeneration before rimuru regenerating.
Its an extraordinary claim on their part to assume rimuru can recreate skills when not existing without any fetus or statements of him being able to do so.

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

You made the claim. So prove your own claim, or this CRT will be closed as one big Burden of Proof fallacy.

Can you show me what positive claim I made. I am asking for proof. Also I am pretty sure wiki doesn't buy assumption especially for High godly regeneration.

The whole HGR comes from assumption that Rimuru can Regenerate from nothing left.

Physical body< soul+mind< information/concepts

This is pretty much how Regeneration tier works.

Ok so according to Rapheal Contradicting statement endless regeneration which embodied in physical body would Regenerate complete information how would physical body exist if completely wiped out of existence. Also how can a skill exist when a Rimuru information Completely erased from Existence. It's still not my burden of proof as I didn't made any positive claim. I am asking the opposition to prove he can Regenerate from nothing. Which. Basically required point for HGR.
Otherwise it will be just an assumption and burden of proof from them. The HGR listed in Rimuru profile because of an assumption

 

[DaReaperMan]

By the context of the statement endless regeneration wasn't erased. It's as simple as that, there's no claim to prove.
No context was given about reviving endless regeneration before rimuru regenerating.
Its an extraordinary claim on their part to assume rimuru can recreate skills when not existing without any fetus or statements of him being able to do so.

Even as someone who doesn't really know tensura, just reading this thread alone proves that assertion about rimuru being unable to regenerate or recreate skills utterly false.

So, if no context is provided, but we've seen the slime recreate skills(we have, Beezlebub of whatever it's spelled is a prime example), then we assume the slime can indeed regenerate its physical form as there's no evidence to the contrary, that is occam's razor

And @Nightmare_Bloodfallen's explanation can very easily be written away as "That wasn't the skill hit by Melt Slash"

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

And @Nightmare_Bloodfallen's explanation can very easily be written away as "That wasn't the skill hit by Melt Slash"

So already he/she explained why a skill remaining won't give HGR. HGR comes from complete eraser of fundamental information or concepts of a character.
So I am still agreeing with removal of HGR from Rimuru for the contradictions it has but I am fine with Rimuru keeping HGR if Rimuru supporters prove he can Regenerate from nothing. As it is essential for HGR. Well I am talking from wiki standards. It still requires proof for that.

Then that means intrinsic skill or whatever he does subsconciously to regenerate his skills/body exist as something different than abilities/skills that are type 2 information. Because even if it is an intrinsic skill. if its still falls as a type 2 information like beelzebub then melt slash would ultimately erase it alongside everything else then that intrinsic skill cannot function if erased or doesn't exist anymore that would be contradictory to the effect if melt slash description of erasing everything

If intrinsic skill is considered information 2 then and it wasnt erased then that would fall into partial destruction which disqualify it for high godly.

 

[DaReaperMan]

"High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying information (Type 2) or concept(s) (Type 1 or 2, but only very rarely 3, if there is strong evidence of being similar to the former types in terms of how hard it is to regenerate from them) needed for them to exist."

What your talking about, I believe, were the old standards for HGR, however, here, Rimuru can recreate and regenerate his underlying information along with his body, mind, and soul. This would qualify for High-Godly.

 

[Tatsumi504]

Even as someone who doesn't really know tensura, just reading this thread alone proves that assertion about rimuru being unable to regenerate or recreate skills utterly false.

So, if no context is provided, but we've seen the slime recreate skills(we have, Beezlebub of whatever it's spelled is a prime example), then we assume the slime can indeed regenerate its physical form as there's no evidence to the contrary, that is occam's razor

And @Nightmare_Bloodfallen's explanation can very easily be written away as "That wasn't the skill hit by Melt Slash"

We've seen Raphael not rimuru recreate a destroyed skill and he did it while alive. How then do we assume that he can do it while he doesn't exist when he doesn't have feats?
This would be like me blatantly stating Anos can regenerate his source with aggronemut after it has been wiped out.

 

[PrinceofPein]

They are asking for prove of Rimuru regenerating from nothing at all including regeneration of his skills that allows him to regenerate from nothing.
If he was never reduced to nothing and his skill were not erased then the entire HGR falls apart
So the burden of proof is not on the OP, there is just a contradiction that does not allow Rimuru to qualify. As the current rating will require him to be able to recreate skills even when he is nothing and even the skill that allows him to regenerate no longer exists, which well frankly he has no feat or statement of doing.

Anyway that’s all I have to say

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

"High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying information (Type 2) or concept(s) (Type 1 or 2, but only very rarely 3, if there is strong evidence of being similar to the former types in terms of how hard it is to regenerate from them) needed for them to exist."

What your talking about, I believe, were the old standards for HGR, however, here, Rimuru can recreate and regenerate his underlying information along with his body, mind, and soul. This would qualify for High-Godly.

His instinctive skill will still remain as for Raphael statement. Which means his information is not completely wiped out.

This is just example i am giving btw

High: The ability to regenerate from a few scattered or lone molecules, atoms, or sub-atomic particles.

See this doesn't qualify for Low godly regeneration even if you wiped out and regenerate from small scattered particals.

So same way The endless regeneration skill of Rimuru is not getting erased from Existence. Like it's still remains there. Also Rapheal never stated that skill won't be necessary to regenerate from complete existence eraser. What I am saying is there is a skill still remains as for Rapheal statement. Well I will leave it up to Tensura supporters to show Rimuru can Regenerate from no skill as skills are information type 2 as listed in Rimuru profile.

 

[DaReaperMan]

We've seen Raphael not rimuru recreate a destroyed skill and he did it while alive. How then do we assume that he can do it while he doesn't exist when he doesn't have feats?
This would be like me blatantly stating Anos can regenerate his source with aggronemut after it has been wiped out.

That's not an anti-feat. Regeneration is not type 4 immortality which only happens after death, and I explain better below.

They are asking for prove of Rimuru regenerating from nothing at all including regeneration of his skills that allows him to regenerate from nothing.
If he was never reduced to nothing and his skill were not erased then the entire HGR falls apart
So the burden of proof is not on the OP, there is just a contradiction that does not allow Rimuru to qualify. As the current rating will require him to be able to recreate skills even when he isnothing and not the skill no longer exists which well frankly he has no feat or statement of doing.

Anyway that’s all I have to say

Which doesn't fall in line with the current HGR Standards, in fact, him not being able to regen if <Endless Regeneration> was destroyed would only be a weakness of his regeneration, not a disqualifying factor for High-Godly.

"High-Godly: The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying information (Type 2) or concept(s) (Type 1 or 2, but only very rarely 3, if there is strong evidence of being similar to the former types in terms of how hard it is to regenerate from them) needed for them to exist."

What your talking about, I believe, were the old standards for HGR, however, here, Rimuru can recreate and regenerate his underlying information along with his body, mind, and soul. This would qualify for High-Godly.

 

[DaReaperMan]

His instinctive skill will still remain as for Raphael statement. Which means his information is not completely wiped out.

This is just example i am giving btw

High: The ability to regenerate from a few scattered or lone molecules, atoms, or sub-atomic particles.

See this doesn't qualify for Low godly regeneration even if you wiped out and regenerate from small scattered particals.

So same way The endless regeneration skill of Rimuru is not getting erased from Existence. Like it's still remains there. Also Rapheal never stated that skill won't be necessary to regenerate from complete existence eraser. What I am saying is there is a skill still remains as for Rapheal statement. Well I will leave it up to Tensura supporters to show Rimuru can Regenerate from no skill as skills are information type 2 as listed in Rimuru profile.

Tell me, do you believe that fire being a weakness of Regeneration would keep the character from that tier of Regeneration? I don't. The Greek Hydra has about Mid Regeneration, but fire can stop it from regenerating it's heads. It would still be Mid, or how about a more recent example with Warhammer Fantasy trolls, they have High-Mid regeneration but can be taken down by well placed fire attacks. Rimuru is much of the same, except its not fire, it's a skill he needs, if the information isn't type 2 then yes, you'd have grounds to downgrade him to Mid-Godly, however, the Raphael statement stops Rimuru from dipping below that as long as Endless Regeneration exists.

 

[Tatsumi504]

That's not an anti-feat. Regeneration is not type 4 immortality which only happens after death, and I explain better below.

Which doesn't fall in line with the current HGR Standards, in fact, him not being able to regen if <Endless Regeneration> was destroyed would only be a weakness of his regeneration, not a disqualifying factor for High-Godly.

Low godly
The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other nonphysical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else.

Mid godly
The ability to regenerate from the complete erasure of body, mind, and soul.

High godly
The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying information (Type 2) or concept(s) (Type 1 or 2, but only very rarely 3, if there is strong evidence of being similar to the former types in terms of how hard it is to regenerate from them) needed for them to exist.

It has to be complete erasure. Partial erasure doesn't qualify for any form of godly regeneration. All godly regeneration feats qualify for immortality type 4. How on earth do you not know the wiki standards

 

[Tatsumi504]

Tell me, do you believe that fire being a weakness of Regeneration would keep the character from that tier of Regeneration? I don't. The Greek Hydra has about Mid Regeneration, but fire can stop it from regenerating it's heads. It would still be Mid, or how about a more recent example with Warhammer Fantasy trolls, they have High-Mid regeneration but can be taken down by well placed fire attacks. Rimuru is much of the same, except its not fire, it's a skill he needs, if the information isn't type 2 then yes, you'd have grounds to downgrade him to Mid-Godly, however, the Raphael statement stops Rimuru from dipping below that as long as Endless Regeneration exists.

As long as endless regeneration wasn't wiped out then this doesn't even qualify for godly regeneration. Its low godly at best.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Which doesn't fall in line with the current HGR Standards, in fact, him not being able to regen if <Endless Regeneration> was destroyed would only be a weakness of his regeneration, not a disqualifying factor for High-Godly.

If his skill is a part of his body, then he is not regenerating from nothing and again skills are information according to Tensura

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

Tell me, do you believe that fire being a weakness of Regeneration would keep the character from that tier of Regeneration? I don't. The Greek Hydra has about Mid Regeneration, but fire can stop it from regenerating it's heads. It would still be Mid, or how about a more recent example with Warhammer Fantasy trolls, they have High-Mid regeneration but can be taken down by well placed fire attacks. Rimuru is much of the same, except its not fire, it's a skill he needs, if the information isn't type 2 then yes, you'd have grounds to downgrade him to Mid-Godly, however, the Raphael statement stops Rimuru from dipping below that as long as Endless Regeneration exists.

This endless regeneration is the whole point in this thread.

<<Answer. Of course not. Speculate to consume massive amount of magicule, however, the physical body can be instantly revived through “Endless Regeneration”.>> (Volume 7)

However you look at it Rimuru is not Regenerating from complete existence eraser. I don't see where it's stating Rimuru getting Regenerated from complete existence eraser. It's clear from Rapheal statement endless regeneration is still remains and it is nowhere stated that skill won't be necessary for Regenerating from nothing.

 

[Lesser_Goddess_Alexia]

They are asking for prove of Rimuru regenerating from nothing at all including regeneration of his skills that allows him to regenerate from nothing.

I seem to have answered this on CRT before.

If you ask, did Rimuru regenerate from nothingness? Then the answer is yes.

'Disintegration as the name would suggest, a magic spell that can obliterate all matter through spiritrons, the building blocks of magicules.

It is the ultimate form of sacred magic, powerful enough that, it is said, no living thing can withstand it. In fact, excluding certain beings like Charybdis that do not entirely fit within the framework of magic, I daresay it could defeat any target.

"Even spiritual lifeforms like us cannot withstand Disintegration. If Hinata can wield magic this powerful, then she has grown tremendously since the days I knew her..."

"I am safe from its effects, because of my great size. But for a humanoid opponent, the greatest of caution must be employed against her," I agreed.

Hinata was quite fearsome.

"But how is it that we are fine? Lord Rimuru was evaporated into nothingness just now, was he not?"

What?! Has Ifrit really not figured it out?' (Veldora's Observation Journal Volume 12)

Disintegration evaporated its target into nothingness and Rimuru was able to regenerate despite being hit by it.

—That even if I didn’t use “Gluttonous King Beelzebub” to cancel the attack, I wouldn’t be killed even when hit by “Melt Slash” head on?
<<Answer. Of course not. Speculate to consume massive amount of magicule, however, the physical body can be instantly revived through “Endless Regeneration”.>> (Volume 7)

 

[EldemadeDityjon]

I seem to have answered this on CRT before.

If you ask, did Rimuru regenerate from nothingness? Then the answer is yes.

Disintegration evaporated its target into nothingness and Rimuru was able to regenerate despite being hit by it.

Endless regeneration skill still remains. Scan for that skill also getting wiped out. Otherwise the Raphael statement contradictory with the melt Slash feat

 

[DaReaperMan]

Low godly
The ability to regenerate from the complete physical destruction of the user's body, instead restoring it from their disembodied consciousness, whether that be their soul, mind, some other nonphysical aspect of themself, esoteric or metaphysical energy, or something else.

Mid godly
The ability to regenerate from the complete erasure of body, mind, and soul.

High godly
The ability to regenerate after the erasure of body, mind, and soul, along with at least one even more fundamental aspect of a character's existence, such as their place in the narrative, their entire history, or the underlying information (Type 2) or concept(s) (Type 1 or 2, but only very rarely 3, if there is strong evidence of being similar to the former types in terms of how hard it is to regenerate from them) needed for them to exist.

It has to be complete erasure. Partial erasure doesn't qualify for any form of godly regeneration. All godly regeneration feats qualify for immortality type 4. How on earth do you not know the wiki standards

That is why I said the Raphael statement would stop him from dipping below Mid-Godly, as Endless Regeneration has a feat of regenerating most of it, and Rimuru taking a large amount of magicules to regenerate the physical body wouldn't be an anti-feat, like I said, it's a weakness of the regeneration, not a disqualifying factor.

Also please respond to me one at a time, I know you all have something to say, but it isn't good posture to zerg people with responses.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I seem to have answered this on CRT before.

If you ask, did Rimuru regenerate from nothingness? Then the answer is yes.

Disintegration evaporated its target into nothingness and Rimuru was able to regenerate despite being hit by it.

This was clearly different
What is been said now is that
The “endless regeneration” skill was not erased and which will be right and will be a contradiction to the HGR