Tekken CRT: Some Issues in Kazuya's Scaling

[CloverDragon03]

So the fighting game pipeline has led me here...

Basically, I was skimming some stuff, and saw that Kazuya's profile has a couple of issues. I'd like to go over them in this thread, so let's not waste any time.

Devil Kazuya's High 6-A Rating

The first of these comes from Devil Kazuya being given a High 6-A rating. The justification is as follows:

Multi-Continent level (Is stronger than before, fought Base Akuma)

However, there's a problem. Base Akuma is 7-A, and his scaling comes from Base Heihachi, who is also 7-A. In the event that there is no additional justification, Devil Kazuya should be downgraded to 7-A, though his Super Devil and True Devil forms will remain High 6-A

The Devil Gene Multiplier (Especially for Speed)

Currently, Super Devil Kazuya has a 10x multiplier tacked onto him via the Devil Gene. There are two problems with this:

1. The scan merely states that his cellular compounds are 10x stronger than those of a normal human. That doesn't say anything about him being 10x stronger than his previous form.
2. Even if you wanted to take the most generous interpretation that this means he's 10x stronger than his previous form, this says nothing about his speed, making the FTL rating completely bunk

In short, my proposals are:

1. Downgrade Devil Kazuya to 7-A if no additional evidence for High 6-A scaling is provided
2. Remove the Devil Gene multiplier, at minimum for speed (but really, it should be removed for AP as well). Naturally, anyone who scales to FTL through this would be downgraded to Relativistic

That's about it as far as my proposals go, so now I'll open the floor to discussion! Let's keep things civil, yeah?

Agree: SamanPatou (change justification for Devil Kazuya), Planck69, Theglassman12, Catzlaflame
Disagree: SamanPatou (multiplier removal)
Neutral:

 

[CloverDragon03]

@SamanPatou You're like the only staff member that's a Tekken supporter so what are your thoughts?

 

[Nierre]

Agree with the scaling (and the speed multiplier). I'm neutral leaning towards "possibly" 10x multiplier for AP. It reads to me that the implication is that the gene had made him 10x stronger, however I'm aware it doesn't outright say that, so that's why I think possibly makes sense here.

 

[Theglassman12]

The only High 6-A arguments I’ve seen pushed for Tekken is the whole Jinpachi “I will bring the world to ruin” type statements. Other than those, it’s not really elaborated upon if he meant nuking the entire world within the matter of minutes or not. If that’s the only thing they got going for the scaling then I agree with the downgrade

 

[CloverDragon03]

It comes from Jin's Tekken 8 ending as that has a 643 petaton calc, which I think is outside the scope of this thread

 

[SamanPatou]

Devil Kazuya totally scales to Devil Jin, so that's solid, it just needs to be reworded.
I'll speak my mind on the multipliers once I'm able to elaborate properly.

 

[Theglassman12]

Is Devil Jin’s ending in Tekken 8 even canon though? Given how random the arcade endings are, unless they are all referenced, idk if we should even use them.

 

[CloverDragon03]

Devil Kazuya totally scales to Devil Jin, so that's solid, it just needs to be reworded.
I'll speak my mind on the multipliers once I'm able to elaborate properly.

I'm fine with reworking the justification if that's the case

 

[BlackDarkness679]

If any individual instead waited on future CRTs tackling some topics instead of doing their own thing, it would be so much better

You claim nothing implies the multiplier increase despite the fact the very scene has Kazuya stomp on Jin, in both AP and speed and only when Jin got his own form akin to Kazuya was able to match him stat wise

Each devil gene use whether transformed or not shows a gap in power between each of them, along claims previous forms dont stand a chance against the current ones anymore which resulted in comparable forms to match up to

Also the justification you brought up in OP to remind you, is thanks to you letting you know who to handle verse wide changes to the verse resulting in that poor state of wording existing

 

[SamanPatou]

Is Devil Jin’s ending in Tekken 8 even canon though? Given how random the arcade endings are, unless they are all referenced, idk if we should even use them.

Like most fighting games, we tend to consider the endings as viable sources and possible what ifs as long as they don't directly contradict the main canon. Devil Jin's endings represents a scenario where he goes nuts instead of controlling the Devil Gene, but there's no contradictory scaling and just sets a new cap in strength that afaik doesn't contradict the canon.

 

[Theglassman12]

Did we accept that being the case back when we were revamping fighting game scaling? I vaguely recall when Matt or King was revising it, the arcade endings weren't really something we'd take unless it was either referenced or confirmed to be canon in some way.

 

[SamanPatou]

We've been using them as valid alternatives for several years already and for several a number of fighting games. In themselves, all the endings even when non-canon, are meant to showcase alternative turns of the story. We don't accept them when they go in stark contrast with the main story (like Ganryu defeating Azazel, for example), but in other cases they simply provide more details on the world and the characters' features, with no reason to exclude them unless they are proven wrong by the canon.
Say, for example, that characters on Devil Jin's level or higher were to be defeated, hurt, killed etc... consistently or relevantly by lesser forces, then I'd agree, but even within Tekken 8 no such limitations are shown.

To make an example for the endings, this feat was once the highest used for the SF low tiers. It comes from an alternate ending where Adon defeats Sagat, who in canon has instead defeated him with little effort and has fought on equal grounds with characters stronger than him. Thus, the scaling to Sagat was not valid. However, Adon busting down the Buddha statue existed as a self-contained feat and was already supported by similar, albeit lower, feats of strength.

If we want to mention endings where even abilities are not canon, we can take the Mortal Kombat endings that go really crazy with them. We have, for example, Shao Kahn in MK9 surviving as a specter and taking control of Cyber Sub-Zero's body or tethering to Nightwolf's Wolf Spirit, something completely unsupported by the fact he consistently remained dead upon being killed.

 

[CloverDragon03]

You claim nothing implies the multiplier increase despite the fact the very scene has Kazuya stomp on Jin, in both AP and speed and only when Jin got his own form akin to Kazuya was able to match him stat wise

Each devil gene use whether transformed or not shows a gap in power between each of them, along claims previous forms dont stand a chance against the current ones anymore which resulted in comparable forms to match up to

I'm not denying that the Devil Gene provides an amp, but the 10x statement is being taken out of context here. It says nothing about the user being 10x stronger than their previous form - just that the user's cellular compounds become 10x stronger than those of an average human being

 

[BlackDarkness679]

In the context of the scene it shows Kazuya stomping on Jin, much later into the scene telling him to bring out his own form to fight before he kills him for good, the devil gene is a genetic power for them, you being overfixated on the bolded part is not changing anything in regards to the multiplier

Also you ignored what i said in the 2nd row, aka there is a gap in power between the devil gene forms and all that, which needs different thread tackling these gaps shown in the series in the power scaling

Also since like always people gotta make CRTs over what it bothers them instead of wait for future ones going over most of these, something realized later on was the statement there says the devil gene overall gives a x10 increase, meaning its not exclusive to the super devil forms and applies to the devil gene other increases in power which ties with the previous thing

P.S: edited the comment

 

[CloverDragon03]

Well again, there's no denying the fact that there is a gap in power between these forms. But it being a 10x gap is unsupported because the statement being used is taken out of context. It's not at all saying Kazuya's Super Devil Form is 10x stronger than his Devil Form

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Well again, there's no denying the fact that there is a gap in power between these forms. But it being a 10x gap is unsupported because the statement being used is taken out of context. It's not at all saying Kazuya's Super Devil Form is 10x stronger than his Devil Form

First, read my comment again, cuz i edited more to it

Second, even if we entertain the idea its not above the devil form just because it doesnt say so, that assumption goes out the window by the fact that Jin had to go a similar form to remotely stand a better chance, if the gap wasnt as big as you claim of a x10, he would have went regular devil form against him then too

Third, the scaling says otherwise all over, Heihachi needed a state of power to remotely fight a super devil form, while Akuma needed Shin form to battle a weakened super devil form, yet lost and got knocked out of it by the super devil form, where as a regular devil form, Akuma needed ki charge to fight him only, Devil Jin vs Kazuya has the latter hold his own but still gets overpowered in 1v1, till going Devil himself to even it out, meanwhile Jin vs Super Devil Kazuya is not even a battle but an utter stomp

Fourth, going x10 only from base form just cuz its not saying its x10 the regular devil form and going strictly by the scene its stated in, makes no sense to the power scaling, as there is also devil gene amps where they dont transform but get an increase in power big enough to one shot/overpower foes evenly to the base form/forms above base form, meanwhile regular devil forms nearly kill or severely injure the latter

 

[CloverDragon03]

I don't believe this addresses the problem at hand, though. These power gaps do show that each Devil Form is a notable boost, yes. But they don't prove it's a 10x boost, because the statement that allegedly suggests as much doesn't actually suggest that. It just says that it makes cellular compounds ten times stronger than those of a human

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I don't believe this addresses the problem at hand, though. These power gaps do show that each Devil Form is a notable boost, yes. But they don't prove it's a 10x boost

Says you? Large gaps in power between them require a huge increase, something dragon ball has with their forms or boosts in question accepted here along some gaining a multiplier via scaling as well

because the statement that allegedly suggests as much doesn't actually suggest that. It just says that it makes cellular compounds ten times stronger than those of a human

You like repeating the same thing over and over? A power that is genetically inherited, with devil cells being a thing as far as tekken 4 told to us, is somehow gonna mean something different just cuz

It talks of the devil gene in there and how it increases the user power to x10 then normal in a scene where it utterly stomps someone stat wise

 

[CloverDragon03]

Says you? Large gaps in power between them require a huge increase, something dragon ball has with their forms or boosts in question accepted here along some gaining a multiplier via scaling as well

Yes, because Dragon Ball's multipliers are also outright stated. Super Saiyan is stated to be a 50x increase, for instance. This whataboutism doesn't hold up because, again, the scan you claim says the Devil Gene gives a 10x amp only says that it makes your cellular compounds 10x stronger than those of a normal human.

You like repeating the same thing over and over? A power that is genetically inherited, with devil cells being a thing as far as tekken 4 told to us, is somehow gonna mean something different just cuz

It talks of the devil gene in there and how it increases the user power to x10 then normal in a scene where it utterly stomps someone stat wise

The statement in question:

"The devil gene acts like a catalyst. It strengthens his cellular compounds to ten times that of a normal human."

This statement does not say anything about specifically boosting his power by ten times.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Yes, because Dragon Ball's multipliers are also outright stated. Super Saiyan is stated to be a 50x increase, for instance.

So is in here on this topic

This whataboutism doesn't hold up because, again, the scan you claim says the Devil Gene gives a 10x amp only says that it makes your cellular compounds 10x stronger than those of a normal human.

You keep repeating back and forth non sensically at this is point, you have something better then this? You were told also earlier yet like always ignore and stonewall, that multiplier still stands, starting from base form over devil form

This statement does not say anything about specifically boosting his power by ten times.

Nice ignorance as always, doesnt say specifically? Based on what? Your opinion? How many times are you gonna f*cking ignore that the power in question is a genetic one which increases their genes to x10 the norm? In a scene of Kazuya stomping Jin bad while telling it

 

[CloverDragon03]

It's only nonsensical to you because you don't personally believe it to be true. I wasn't "told earlier" by anyone that I ignore and stonewall, unless you mean by yourself, which is crazy given the attitude you're giving me despite the fact that I've never once attacked you.

Increasing the strength of cellular compounds to 10x those of a normal human is not the same as multiplying one's own strength by 10x. That's a false equivalence, and as such the multiplier is invalid

 

[Planck69]

Yeah, the downgrades are fine.

@BlackDarkness679 Can you please go one thread without being hostile to someone that disagrees with you?

 

[CloverDragon03]

Yeah, the downgrades are fine.

@BlackDarkness679 Can you please go one thread without being hostile to someone that disagrees with you?

Is the High 6-A justification rework fine? Saman said that Devil Kazuya scales to Devil Jin, so it'd just be a justification change

 

[Planck69]

It's fine to me, from his elaboration. Granted, I'm an outsider to the scaling so I may have my mind changed with good argumentation.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Yeah, the downgrades are fine.

@BlackDarkness679 Can you please go one thread without being hostile to someone that disagrees with you?

Calling someone ignorant isnt hostility, also this further proves what i said last time, all of you just agree with a staff and dont give a shit about the users in the slightest, especially all of you piling on me with nobody else to get help from, unfairness like always

 

[CloverDragon03]

So do you just refuse to acknowledge the possibility that your counterarguments simply don't hold up? There's literally nothing that warrants this victim mentality, we're just disagreeing with you while you're being hostile to anyone that dares to disagree with you

 

[BlackDarkness679]

It's only nonsensical to you because you don't personally believe it to be true.

No its non sensical overall by your own logics with no basis to then, i bet if i knew other verses better in which you are involved i would also see in there you do non sense without anything concrete

I wasn't "told earlier" by anyone that I ignore and stonewall, unless you mean by yourself, which is crazy given the attitude you're giving me despite the fact that I've never once attacked you.

How about you stop being sensitive over things not even remotely falling being attacked, no person i ever saw got offended being told they are ignorant, get real about it

Increasing the strength of cellular compounds to 10x those of a normal human is not the same as multiplying one's own strength by 10x. That's a false equivalence, and as such the multiplier is invalid

Says you? You are simply ignorant to a fault, no way to put it otherwise

"Oh it says cellular compounds it doesnt mean anything", "Oh it says x10 of a human" "They dont mean x10 multiplier"

For how many Nth times it has to be told to you till you understand the devil gene, a genetic power in them, increases their power to x10 the norm? You always omit the fact Kazuya stomps Jin during the statement being made, yet you claim it doesnt mean a x10 multiplier and wonder i call you out on your argument which is a stupid one and for your info before you blow it out of proportions, your argument was called dumb here

So do you just refuse to acknowledge the possibility that your counterarguments simply don't hold up?

You refuse the possibility you dont know what you talking? You also brought up Devil Kazuya scaling without even remotely looking at the profiles better to see he is at where he is at cuz of Devil Jin with his own feat he got scaling from, if nobody replied here on that you would hhave gotten wrong and innacurate changes via clueless agreement and you want me to take you serious on the other front with the multiplier? Yeah no

There's literally nothing that warrants this victim mentality, we're just disagreeing with you while you're being hostile to anyone that dares to disagree with you

I said above and i will say it shortly, drop this "oh you are hostile, you meanie" on me act, you are supposedly an adult, stop acting like being told by someone you have ignorance is the same as dropping actual insults or worse

 

[BlackDarkness679]

And for your info compounds means a mixture of something composed of two or more things, devil cells are a thing since the 4th game existing, which was brought up in regards to creating a powerful life form with them for genetic experimentation, but you come here argue like that has meaning in regards to their power

You also make a big case for telling its just x10 a human, you realize the humans in this series are also powerful, Heihachi and Lars are two humans and yet look how powerful they are and repeating again the fact that Jin in his base gets stomped in the scene by Kazuya, with gaps in power being big between forms

 

[Planck69]

Calling someone ignorant isnt hostility, also this further proves what i said last time, all of you just agree with a staff and dont give a shit about the users in the slightest, especially all of you piling on me with nobody else to get help from, unfairness like always

Or, and this may be a hard-to-grasp concept, they just disagree. You don't get off on calling someone ignorant for elaborating their view when you're the last thing from an absolute authority on a verse, it's that simple.

And frankly, quit it with the victim mentality, argue your point with the expectation that may not be agreed with here. Nobody has it out for you, despite what you may think.

 

[SamanPatou]

I must say that, for how weirdly delivered it is, there is little else to interpret in context, as there is little else they could be referring to. Kazuya is beating up Jin and they drop the 10x statement in that moment, using some fancy choice of wording, but I doubt they were suddenly doing an exposition of his genetic structure unrelated to strength. We could, at the very worst, put it under some likely/possibly clause, but axing it completely sounds disingenous.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Or, and this may be a hard-to-grasp concept, they just disagree. You don't get off on calling someone ignorant for elaborating their view when you're the last thing from an absolute authority on a verse, it's that simple.

And i will tell you what, if you are gonna disagree on something give something of relevance that has a point in there, not your personal opinion based on nothing, if a user was to say the same thing as he did, you wouldnt consider it at all, funny how you are so quick to accept him meanwhile my words you dont care less

Its ridiculous how much credibility any staff regardless of their role have against anyone thats just a regular user in authority, also i have far more knowledge then him on the verse, i have more authority when it comes to scaling and context over him twisting it to his personal view ignoring my comments, you are utterly dishonest how you favor him here so easily

And frankly, quit it with the victim mentality, argue your point with the expectation that may not be agreed with here. Nobody has it out for you, despite what you may think.

Yet another example how staff are excused over others, my case is more then justified, weeks of wait to conclude a previous CRT, a random staff comes to turn it around with the same garbage arguments which all switch to without questioning anything from it, then not long after closing it down yet another CRT with downgrades on scaling they cant even look up the profiles better for why they are at the rating in question and removing a multiplier stated in the context of someone stomping another, in regards to a genetic power meant to increase physicals

Also you dont tell whether someone has something against someone or not, as not only i met several here who had it but also did things out of pettyness either to me or stuff i like, also funny how to clover you just keep defending him that calling them ignorant is now hostility, how about most of you stop acting like victims over nothing

 

[CloverDragon03]

I must say that, for how weirdly delivered it is, there is little else to interpret in context, as there is little else they could be referring to. Kazuya is beating up Jin and they drop the 10x statement in that moment, using some fancy choice of wording, but I doubt they were suddenly doing an exposition of his genetic structure unrelated to strength. We could, at the very worst, put it under some likely/possibly clause, but axing it completely sounds disingenous.

I don't see what's disingenuous about it. It clearly isn't referring to Kazuya being 10x stronger than a previous form. And if you wanted to take it as such, which I'd say is an incredibly generous interpretation, that still wouldn't explain why this is being applied to speed as well

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I don't see what's disingenuous about it. It clearly isn't referring to Kazuya being 10x stronger than a previous form.

The fact you still claim this literally shows you dont read or simply ignore it to your liking previously said things

It still says there its x10 increase compared to a base/human form the devil gene gives the user for starters, even if you lowball for no reason that its not x10 the regular devil form, the boost from base form is still a thing stated

And if you wanted to take it as such, which I'd say is an incredibly generous interpretation, that still wouldn't explain why this is being applied to speed as well

How about the fact Kazuya catches his punch, avoids another attempt and slams him down before he reacts, yeets him on a nearby roof and drops on him before he can move away in time all happening in the scene in question

We acting like for speed doesnt give you an increase? Dragon ball has multipliers even for speed accepted, unless its specified and clearly shown they dont, like trunks buffed saiyan form which doesnt make him faster with that one

And dont give me excuses why they can and Tekken not, either they get it too or none gets it at all, no ifs or buts

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Also since you didnt read what i said last time either for this one, i will say again, i have CRTs to tackle in the future, which will be for stats, scaling and multipliers

So i prefer those being solved then instead of beatin the bush non sensically and nitpicking here when the verse had no actual good updates regarding these

 

[CloverDragon03]

The fact you still claim this literally shows you dont read or simply ignore it to your liking previously said things

It still says there its x10 increase compared to a base/human form the devil gene gives the user for starters, even if you lowball for no reason that its not x10 the regular devil form, the boost from base form is still a thing stated

I will not repeat myself after this reply. If you choose to ignore it and stonewall afterwards, that's on you.

This is referring to cellular compounds being 10x stronger than those of a normal human. This does not suggest that Kazuya's power itself is 10x stronger than before. It's about the strength of his cells.

How about the fact Kazuya catches his punch, avoids another attempt and slams him down before he reacts, yeets him on a nearby roof and drops on him before he can move away in time all happening in the scene in question

We acting like for speed doesnt give you an increase? Dragon ball has multipliers even for speed accepted, unless its specified and clearly shown they dont, like trunks buffed saiyan form which doesnt make him faster with that one

And dont give me excuses why they can and Tekken not, either they get it too or none gets it at all, no ifs or buts

You're not the one that decides that either both series get multipliers or neither do. The fatal flaw with Tekken's "multiplier" is that it doesn't say what you're claiming it says. I've reiterated this multiple times. Dragon Ball's multipliers specifically boost the user's power and speed. This is some statement about the strength of cellular compounds, when that's not the same as AP, much less speed.

Also since you didnt read what i said last time either for this one, i will say again, i have CRTs to tackle in the future, which will be for stats, scaling and multipliers

So i prefer those being solved then instead of beatin the bush non sensically and nitpicking here when the verse had no actual good updates regarding these

If I have a problem with something, I'm going to make a CRT to address it, so I don't see what you're getting at here. I'm not gonna stop this thread.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I will not repeat myself after this reply. If you choose to ignore it and stonewall afterwards, that's on you. Anf

You are the only ignorant person here and im losing patience at how incredibly stubborn you can actually be with this shit and how wrong you can be and still decide to argue

This is referring to cellular compounds being 10x stronger than those of a normal human. This does not suggest that Kazuya's power itself is 10x stronger than before. It's about the strength of his cells.

How many freaking times are you gonna ignore the statement is made while Kazuya stat wise stomps Jin in the scene, let alone all previously said things on this matter OVER and OVER, are you simply this dense to not comprehend it?

Something improving you genetically is still something improving your physicals, you make so much fuss over it saying cellular as if thst disproves anything, Cell has cells from a bunch of dragon ball characters which made him being more powerful then anyone from those arcs at the time when he showed up

Heihachi wanted to create by mixing his genes with another an ultimate life form, the movie itself has a normal teen receive something called the M-cell, which made him superhuman or the fact i already said previously that they even tried making mixes with the devil cells to make powerful beings out of that

And here we are with you saying cellular compounds doesnt mean physical stats increase despite the series proves it otherwise, especially in the scene which you dont wanna understand already proves physical superiority

The fatal flaw with Tekken's "multiplier" is that it doesn't say what you're claiming it says. I've reiterated this multiple times.

And i dont care of your responses you just repeat like s broken record the same thing, you got nothing else to disprove outside your own personal view which horrible and delusional

Dragon Ball's multipliers specifically boost the user's power and speed.

This shows again you dont read or ignore stuff like always, not all forms increase their speed, trunks buffed saiyan form specifically is said and shown to lack in speed in turn for more AP/dura, so already you comment here is flat out wrong

This is some statement about the strength of cellular compounds, when that's not the same as AP, much less speed.

You got debunked several times, you go against the series established lore and context of the scene, either you prove it specifically doesnt under these things or you simply shut up with your constant yapping

If I have a problem with something, I'm going to make a CRT to address it, so I don't see what you're getting at here. I'm not gonna stop this thread.

If you cant even do a proper CRT and you lack knowledge dont do it in the first place, i will say it to your place, your CRT is horrible

You couldnt even look up better for why Devil Kazuya was where he was at and quickly you jumped to propose downgrades on him, sign of incompetence and lack of effort

I know the series far better and your arguments are bullshit to downplay them with, stick to calculations or verses you supposedly know

 

[CloverDragon03]

This is going in circles, as I figured it would. You're either strawmanning me (claiming I said the Devil Gene doesn't provide an AP and speed boost, when all I said is that the 10x figure is just being taken out of context; a 10x boost to cellular compounds isn't the same as a 10x AP boost or a 10x speed boost), making whataboutisms (Dragon Ball, again), or straight up insulting the opposition or making baseless accusations about them (claiming I'm trying to downplay Tekken, for one)

I won't be entertaining this further if this is all it'll amount to. The arguments are things I've already gone over, so I don't want to repeat myself

 

[Antvasima]

Please calm down, BlackDarkness679. I know that you know and care a lot about this verse, and it is possible that you are factually correct about its scaling, but you should not get angry in frustration if our staff members do not agree with you.

Can you summarise each side of the arguments and issues here in a polite neutral language please? That will help our staff to evaluate your arguments more easily.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Please calm down, BlackDarkness679. I know that you know and care a lot about this verse, and it is possible that you are factually correct about its scaling, but you should not get angry in frustration if our staff members do not agree with you.

Calm down when he constantly ignores everything told to him? And now he resorts to reporting for calling him out? I think i gave him more then enough at this point, along victimizing himself as if calling someone ignorant is an offense

Can you summarise each side of the arguments and issues here in a polite neutral language please? That will help our staff to evaluate your arguments more easily.

He claims a statement for a multiplier isnt a multiplier for the physicals just cuz it says "The devil gene acts like a catalyst. It strengthens his cellular compounds to ten times that of a normal human"

Even though the scene in question where the statement is being made has the character in question stomp the other stats wise

On top of cell mixing in the series being done or were intended to be done to create life forms with physical improvements or to make others superhuman physically

Along boosts/transformations of this power all shown in the series to have big gaps between them

Clover deliberately ignores all of these and just repeats the same thing over and over with nothing new to add up on this, even the only staff of this verse he called out himself disagrees with him, yet keeps persisting

 

[CloverDragon03]

You're only making things worse for yourself. And Saman's response is pretty clearly against wiki standards considering we don't allow multipliers to be reasoned, like with stuff like "I doubt it means something other than this." If it's not a direct statement of boosting power/speed, it just doesn't qualify. And a transformation can provide a gap in power by simply being unquantifiably stronger. It doesn't have to be a multiplier. Everything you're saying points to it being stronger, yes, but not by 10x. Simple as.

I reported you because your behavior's a clear rule violation, and it's not the first time you've been reported and faced consequences for that