Tekken CRT Part 1: speed and weight

[Antvasima]

This thread is not particularly old. I think that we can wait for a bit more input in order to make certain.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Its been 2 weeks since this CRT was created and most of it got to this point just for one thing left to be accepted and huge majority tagged didnt even commented to begin with, many of them were active as well at that moment or later, i really dont see the point of waiting more as so far its been the same deal each time

 

[Antvasima]

The issue is that we need proper confirmations regarding the lightspeed issue.

If other parts have been accepted, they can probably be applied.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

They have already been applied from 3 staffs and you also said its ok and were done afterwards

I said earlier too comments ago the responses arent vague, they responded with elaboration on the issue, you said ok as well after explaining that, then i asked another staff which i said above to respond on the matter too, then finally looked and responded too

Its just redundant to wait more, 3 approvals were given for that matter as of yesterday, which the rest were also approved with that much too

 

[Antvasima]

The staff members in question are likely not very familiar with our lightspeed standards, and one of them even asked me to ask more knowledgeable members in this regard. Please stop arguing over a very minor issue, and just show some patience.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Patience has a limit, its really annoying to wait for a response on just one thing, much less on a series with barely anyone caring about it, in order to update it, while other mainstream ones get more attention and their business done so much faster in comparison

Out of the tens you tagged only 2-3 took their time to reply with their input, this is just ridiculous to wait that much for literally 1 last thing, its not a minor thing, have some understanding with this

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if you write an explanation of the lightspeed issue, I can ask some calc group members to evaluate it again. That is the procedure that we usually use for these sort of issues, so I would appreciate if you collaborate with me here.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I wrote several comments above about that already a couple times....not to sound mean, but honestly, scroll up as well to read them, there arent many nor are they long, you have those who accepted it their responses and me explaining the light speed deal bunch of times

 

[Antvasima]

I scrolled up a bit, but could not find a good explanation that is easy for calc group members to quickly understand the context for if they are going to help us out. Can you make another serious attempt please?

 

[BlackDarkness679]

This one would fall in the same category as the previous one, as attack speed only and supporting feat, that being Claudio being able to fire an arrow of light, here can be found reasons for it being light, same deal as with Bryan on the rating as well, also worth pointing, in Tekken 7 Heihachi has to dodge his beams he fires in the the story mode, now it is dependent on the player if they have the reflexes to do it, but the fight starts with Claudio firing that and the old man goes unscratched from the fight and wins it easily, so the possibility of him dodging it isnt far fetched, as Yoshimitsu instance shows he is capable with Bryan and the feats they scale to are pretty done by them most of the time without effort

There is more to add for the light stuff, according to the page for this it says: "Additionally, if a series is very close to lightspeed or exceeds it in several other calcs and scenarios (such as what is seen in DBZ), there is less of a burden of proof to show that the laser is a true laser." The verse has as seen above agreed too calcs at sub-rel+ and rel, former being done by a near bottom of the verse character out of which almost all upscale from, meanwhile the latter scales from upper half of tier list of the verse and they have those light stuff on top of that, god tiers are already above SoL as told above. Plus they have reasonable evidence for the idea of being light too for arguing about it, likely/possibly SoL attack speed is a safe option in any case, we have verses which are given such ratings for a little less or when they arent physically close to this as in here with a nifty upscaling chain

Claudio calls it being the light of Sirius and uses his power, which is from the star from the sky which glows, being displayed on the arm blue colored flames, blue is literally the color that the brightest stars have actually too, so its coming from real light source, Starburst by definition also says there rays from a source of light, so it is pointed out as being legitimate rather then being energy or something else. EDIT: Also the earlier point from not too long ago as well, there is already one beam of light instance accepted and it would be impossible this one not being one

3 staffs agreed on Claudio case so far also, this is all the points about this as well to understand whats this all about

 

[Antvasima]

@Executor_N0 @Mr._Bambu @Ugarik @Damage3245 @DemonGodMitchAubin @Jasonsith @Wokistan @Armorchompy

Would any of you be willing to evaluate the above post regarding if lightspeed is warranted here please?

https://vsbattles.com/threads/tekken-crt-part-1-speed-and-weight.122065/post-4067645

 

[Armorchompy]

The arrow to me is clearly a light construct, sure it could be made of real light but that's unrelated to the speed it's fired. A glow stick emanates "real light" but if I throw one at you that's not SoL. Disagree.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for helping out. That seems to have been rejected then.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Really....you take one vote thats says no but ignore 3 who looked at it and said yes.....its not like the previous one arent aware at all of the site standards, as staff they need to be aware of them, lordgriffin pointed those out and still inclined for a yes for example

If thats how you wanna decide for a CRT whats accepted and not by votes, it will give a bad reputation to this place with such a decision

Also the argument of throwing is unfounded, he doesnt throw it, he forms it around the arm and holds it there before letting go of it, let alone the idea of him attacking a top tier with light at slow ass speed is absurd with the verse ammount of feats near these ranges of speeds they got

 

[Antvasima]

Well, calc group members are the ones who are specialised regarding our calculation standards and rules, including lightspeed feats, but we can wait to see if more of them show up and evaluate this as well if you prefer.

 

[azontr]

Well, calc group members are the ones who are specialised regarding our calculation standards and rules, including lightspeed feats, but we can wait to see if more of them show up and evaluate this as well if you prefer.

That is best. I agree with the sentiment that one calc member disagreeing isn't enough to come to a consensus, and is bad for our reputation. We should preferably get as much input as possible in cases like this.

 

[Armorchompy]

Also the argument of throwing is unfounded, he doesnt throw it, he forms it around the arm and holds it there before letting go of it,

Nitpicking, it's still just constructed of light, as such its movement speed cannot be proven to be related to light speed. Whether it's being thrown or magically projected forward doesn't matter.

let alone the idea of him attacking a top tier with light at slow ass speed is absurd with the verse ammount of feats near these ranges of speeds they got

I never said it was slow. It probably just scales to whatever the other guy's speed is.

As a side note, Heihachi dodging the beams is pretty sus in itself considering:

• Fighting game projectiles have to have their speed balanced not to be overpowered, so scaling characters to their speed in gameplay is iffy
• The attack has a very obvious telegraphed animation and could easily be aimdodged. I bet that's the intended way to deal with it too, even.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Nitpicking, it's still just constructed of light, as such its movement speed cannot be proven to be related to light speed. Whether it's being thrown or magically projected forward doesn't matter.

So you tell me the character holding it still and letting it go its the same as throwing a ball for example in premise, has no reason to be slower then intended

I never said it was slow. It probably just scales to whatever the other guy's speed is.

There is no basis to do that...thats like saying a rock i flick scales to the character i try to hit when the character can dodge that

As a side note, Heihachi dodging the beams is pretty sus in itself considering:

• Fighting game projectiles have to have their speed balanced not to be overpowered, so scaling characters to their speed in gameplay is iffy

Speed in gameplay doesnt affect the speed in lore, unless you wanna tell me a gun cant be super sonic at all just just for the sake of the player, in canon it would as fast as they are, many game verses o seen here take feats of the player react to an attack fired at them and get calcs or ratings from them

• The attack has a very obvious telegraphed animation and could easily be aimdodged. I bet that's the intended way to deal with it too, even.

Has no reason to aim dodge when a character below him has a light dodging feat and cant hold a candle to him and let alone its near point blank too the dustance between them, the character who attacks him isnt taking that much of his sweet time for it either

Also i said in the reasons its a possibility anndgood support feat at best

 

[Armorchompy]

So you tell me the character holding it still and letting it go its the same as throwing a ball for example in premise, has no reason to be slower then intended

I am contesting the fact that it's "intended". It's made of light, this is absolutely no evidence that it moves at light speed.

There is no basis to do that...thats like saying a rock i flick scales to the character i try to hit when the character can dodge that

Alright, if he's slower he's slower. Not an argument.

Speed in gameplay doesnt affect the speed in lore, unless you wanna tell me a gun cant be super sonic at all just just for the sake of the player, in canon it would as fast as they are

Yeah, and if it's made to be possible to dodge in gameplay that doesn't necessarily mean it would be in lore.

many game verses o seen here take feats of the player react to an attack fired at them and get calcs or ratings from them

Fighting games are a special case, I've already explained.

Has no reason to aim dodge when a character below him has a light dodging feat and cant hold a candle to him and let alone its near point blank too the dustance between them, the character who attacks him isnt taking that much of his sweet time for it either

"He has no reason to aim dodge" lol is he just standing still for the two seconds of the windup only to dodge after it's fired as a flex? Actually prove he's reacting to the beam itself and not the character preparing to fire it. If he's Relativistic for other reasons he's relativistic for other reasons, that is irrelevant to this feat. You're literally saying "This feat is relativistic because the character is relativistic anyway"

Also i said in the reasons its a possibility anndgood support feat at best

Well it ain't cause it's not a feat. If the rating's fine without it then I don't mind.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I am contesting the fact that it's "intended". It's made of light, this is absolutely no evidence that it moves at light speed.

Based on what? Its stupid to claim the speed it goes at is low instead and have the character attack with that to someone with high speed feats with something so slow, its illogical af

Alright, if he's slower he's slower. Not an argument.

The speed of the character whom fires it has no relevance to his attack speed which has reasons to be faster then him

Yeah, and if it's made to be possible to dodge in gameplay that doesn't necessarily mean it would be in lore.

Says you? Based on what? Also its a lore fight, not mere gameplay which you can set up, you as the player dont even get that character move where he fires light available when you play him

Fighting games are a special case, I've already explained.

This is literally double standards at itss finest and not the first time i see it between verses, not an argument

"He has no reason to aim dodge" lol is he just standing still for the two seconds of the windup only to dodge after it's fired as a flex?

He doesnt take those below him seriously and its cocky as well, so why would aim dodge? you imply he isnt capable to do it for no reasons at all and it doesnt take 2 seconds either, drop the head canon

Actually prove he's reacting to the beam itself and not the character preparing to fire it.

He never reacted to the characters themselves instead of the projectiles fired at him ever, especially not to those in his league, why now would he at someone he is nowhere near his league, you make no sense at all

If he's Relativistic for other reasons he's relativistic for other reasons, that is irrelevant to this feat. You're literally saying "This feat is relativistic because the character is relativistic anyway"

I never said its rela, i gave no rating on that feat, instead i said the one who fires it should get likely/possibly sol in attack speed and thats it, for the other character is just a support

Well it ain't cause it's not a feat. If the rating's fine without it then I don't mind.

Baseless claims as this with nitpicking is meaning nothing, if you cant give a response without these then i dont need them to begin with

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Well, calc group members are the ones who are specialised regarding our calculation standards and rules, including lightspeed feats, but we can wait to see if more of them show up and evaluate this as well if you prefer.

The calcs with values, not standards themselves for evidence, also since when a calcer word is suppose to hold more weight then a admin/mod word, let alone 3, you act like they dont know the standards at all to give their opinion

 

[Armorchompy]

Literally your entire arguments here are based on "he's attacking someone with reactions in the light-speed range, so his attacks must be in that speed range as well". That's scaling. It's not a feat at all, and it's not an argument at all either. For all I care this guy can be FTL+, but that's through scaling, which has no impact on his own attacks being stated to be SoL. I'll drop the game/lore thing for now although I still find it spotty (as are most of your other arguments, I just don't find it important to attack them right now), and focus on the real issue. I would however recommend you not to take my examples literally in an effort to nitpick them, it's a lazy debating technique to waste my time, which I won't entertain.

I am arguing that they are light constructs moving at non-specific speed, and that all the claims of them being light apply to them being made of light, not moving at light speed. You have failed to not just debunk, but even address this argument, instead trying to circumvent it with non-sequitur such as the scaling argument.

 

[Armorchompy]

The calcs with values, not standards themselves for evidence, also since when a calcer word is suppose to hold more weight then a admin/mod word, let alone 3, you act like they dont know the standards at all to give their opinion

Calc members are indeed meant to know standards well considering they're key to the validity of calculations. There is no such requirement for other staff positions as far as I know.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Literally your entire arguments here are based on "he's attacking someone with reactions in the light-speed range, so his attacks must be in that speed range as well".

Nice head canon as always, all you did since you came here was just do these sort of things

That's scaling. It's not a feat at all, and it's not an argument at all either. For all I care this guy can be FTL+, but that's through scaling, which has no impact on his own attacks being stated to be SoL.

You dont comprehend anything in the slightest and its not scaling, failing to understand and it shows

I'll drop the game/lore thing for now although I still find it spotty (as are most of your other arguments, I just don't find it important to attack them right now)

You clearly dont have any idea how verses that are games work and it shows, let alone your double standards shit from earlier

And focus on the real issue. I would however recommend you not to take my examples literally in an effort to nitpick them, it's a lazy debating technique to waste my time, which I won't entertain.

You have no room to talk when you gave illogical and baseless claims so far

I am arguing that they are light constructs moving at non-specific speed

Which goes against occam razor, why would you attack with light if it is at a speed below SoL, its counter productive, by your logic i can argue lightning bolts arent moving at that speed if a character fired one or anything else on that sort

and that all the claims of them being light apply to them being made of light, not moving at light speed.

Light moves at light speed, you arguing it doesnt go that fast has literally no basis, the point of light standards are to prove something is legit light and if someone reacts to such a thing or have a move like that get a rating out of it

You have failed to not just debunk, but even address this argument, instead trying to circumvent it with non-sequitur such as the scaling argument.

Didnt use the scaling argument once, you on the other hand tried to have its speed it goes scaled to the character who dodges it, this is called hypocrisy at this point and just cuz you are brick walled =/= i failed to debunk, learn to be open minded, not like you will do it

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Calc members are indeed meant to know standards well considering they're key to the validity of calculations. There is no such requirement for other staff positions as far as I know.

Doesnt mean your word now holds more importance then a staff one, let alone 3 of them, a calc member job is to make sure calcs are good, if this whole matter was about a calc on dodging the light, thats a different story, the matter instead is a character getting a possibility at sol attack speed mainly, rest is small stuff overall which is supporting only

This whole idea of a staff being clueless of their site standards is ridiculous and have a calcer word be the more reliable one

 

[Armorchompy]

Didnt use the scaling argument once, you on the other hand tried to have its speed it goes scaled to the character who dodges it, this is called hypocrisy at this point and just cuz you are brick walled =/= i failed to debunk, learn to be open minded, not like you will do it

Still not presenting any arguments. Feel free to throw around any accusation you want, they've got absolutely no weight. Won't reply to the showed of ad hominem you threw around in the rest of the post.

Which goes against occam razor, why would you attack with light if it is at a speed below SoL, its counter productive, by your logic i can argue lightning bolts arent moving at that speed if a character fired one or anything else on that sort

Different situation, he's attacking with an object made of light, not shooting a light beam, occam's razor has no business being mentioned here. If a character made a weapon out of lightning like this guy is making a weapon out of light, then yeah, you could and should argue they aren't moving at lightning speed.

Doesnt mean your word now holds more importance then a staff one, let alone 3 of them, a calc member job is to make sure calcs are good, if this whole matter was about a calc on dodging the light, thats a different story, the matter instead is a character getting a possibility at sol attack speed mainly, rest is small stuff overall which is supporting only

This whole idea of a staff being clueless of their site standards is ridiculous and have a calcer word be the more reliable one

Mate, I am staff. And I'm not saying they're clueless on the standards, I'm saying I sure as hell am not. If they disagree with what I'm saying they're free to explain why.

 

[Armorchompy]

Light moves at light speed, you arguing it doesnt go that fast has literally no basis, the point of light standards are to prove something is legit light and if someone reacts to such a thing or have a move like that get a rating out of it

I have explained the basis already, light constructs =/= moving at the speed of light.

 

[Antvasima]

Calc group members are supposed to know the standards for feats that can be calculated well. It is a part of their job description. It would be very unwise of me to just ignore their expertise.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Still not presenting any arguments. Feel free to throw around any accusation you want, they've got absolutely no weight. Won't reply to the showed of ad hominem you threw around in the rest of the post.

Your opinion at this point means zero with the way you present yourself

Different situation, he's attacking with an object made of light, not shooting a light beam, occam's razor has no business being mentioned here.

One reason you fail here, he isnt attacking with any object at all, he makes a beam of light which he lets go off to fire on the opponent, this shows even more you dont know what you talking

If a character made a weapon out of lightning like this guy is making a weapon out of light, then yeah, you could and should argue they aren't moving at lightning speed.

He makes no weapon.....open your eyes or read what you are told and not how it works anyway

Mate, I am staff. And I'm not saying they're clueless on the standards, I'm saying I sure as hell am not. If they disagree with what I'm saying they're free to explain why.

Staff is mod or admin, since when a calcer has authority of either of those

 

[BlackDarkness679]

I have explained the basis already, light constructs =/= moving at the speed of light.

You failed to understand this isnt a construct, weapon or object, from which you base your claim on

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Calc group members are supposed to know the standards for feats that can be calculated well. It is a part of their job description. It would be very unwise of me to just ignore their expertise.

Yet no thread that i have seen from my experience had any calcer being called to give input ever and seen just staff members give their input on CRT to apply them after

Why it is now done and on this CRT and why is literally just 1 word of a calcer considered >>> to 3 staffs + a bunch of members, this went way too long for one single thing left, halting further progress for the verse to be made when there was enough input given already

Im tired and running out of patience to constantly repeat something and not going anywhere no matter what on this already

 

[Antvasima]

Calc Group members are roughly on the same hierarchical level as Discussion Moderators without any additional positions, and have higher authority than other staff members when it comes to evaluating calculations and closely related topics.

Also, he simply seems to be citing our actual explicit rules for lightspeed feats.

 

[Armorchompy]

You failed to understand this isnt a construct, weapon or object, from which you base your claim on

No, all signs point to it being one, and you still haven't made any arguments. I'm not willing to keep up this farce, either make an actual argument as to why it isn't, or give up this feat.

 

[Antvasima]

I agree with Armorchompy.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

No, all signs point to it being one, and you still haven't made any arguments. I'm not willing to keep up this farce, either make an actual argument as to why it isn't, or give up this feat.

Literally nothing indicates this, if you cant comprehend then simply dont reply again, you made no counter arguments here at all

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Also, he simply seems to be citing our actual explicit rules for lightspeed feats.

The standards are to prove its light or not with some criterias there as examples, which literally anyone can know them, putting calc members in higher regards of that matter over a staff makes no sense, if the matter was a calculation involving that, thats another story, the other isnt something in the same league as previous matter mentioned

And once again taking his word only to refute 3 staff not including from members votes, is again of bad taste, its asking for negative reputation let alone, many threads seen got accepted with 3 staff without further input after, this is just prolonging for no reason, it spuld have been settled and moved on after the goal of 3 agreeing eventually

 

[azontr]

The standards are to prove its light or not with some criterias there as examples, which literally anyone can know them, putting calc members in higher regards of that matter over a staff makes no sense, if the matter was a calculation involving that, thats another story, the other isnt something in the same league as previous matter mentioned

And once again taking his word only to refute 3 staff not including from members votes, is again of bad taste, its asking for negative reputation let alone, many threads seen got accepted with 3 staff without further input after, this is just prolonging for no reason

Calc Group members literally exist to evaluate calculations... They are staff, except their focused on calculations, which fuels like 80% of this god darn wiki. So, yeah.

 

[BlackDarkness679]

This isnt a calculation matter here regardless, its a different matter which already had the minimum needed to pass

 

[azontr]

Calculations require extensive knowledge of these standards in the first place, which calc group members need to have, soooooo.......

 

[BlackDarkness679]

Extensive knowledge for what....something anybody can get to know what qualifies for light...it isnt quantum physics or advanced math levels of knowledge