Sword Art Online General Discussion/Q&A Thread #4

[CurrySenpai]

It's fine guys Kirito will be more powerful once Gameverse gets powerscaled!!!!!!!!!!!

FR though progress on Gameverse stuff has been slow but decent.

 

[Kaantantr]

Gameverse Kirito is actually much less powerful, he didn't even use any proto-incarnation throughout the series

 

[CurrySenpai]

Gameverse Kirito is actually much less powerful, he didn't even use any proto-incarnation throughout the series

In terms of abilities yeah he's pretty weak but in like physical strength some of the stuff I'm finding is actually pretty cool, most notably in HR and Lycoris although everything else is kinda lackluster.

 

[FleetingExistence]

What you are doing right now is spamming.

You keep saying I have to know the fundamentals. But they're irrelevant if you're using them for your fallacious overgeneralization.

 

[Kaantantr]

Your claims are irrelevant as long as they ignore basic factual information about the series. And make the claims about me "fallaciously overgeneralizing" without even knowing what I said. You yourself literally stated you had no information about what I said, apologized for it, yet still make claims about me based on that.

That is as much as I can respectfully respond and I have to stop replying to your absurdities at this point due to my good faith towards the mods here. Feel free to take your headcanon elsewhere, where 3 sentence long marketing material supersedes information from the series itself.

 

[CurrySenpai]

New ALO Calc

 

[FleetingExistence]

And make the claims about me "fallaciously overgeneralizing" without even knowing what I said.

I'm sorry if it seems rude that I won't read it, but even without reading it, I can infer that you believe it doesn't work because of how Memory Abilities are stated to function. However, my argument doesn't care how Memory Abilities function, and it doesn't need to. Let me break this down simply for you:

FE (me): According to this statement, Fanatio's sword functions by using the light of Solus.

K (you): That can't be true, because Memory Release abilities cannot function in that manner. You need to read this previous discussion about it.

FE: That's a fallacious overgeneralization of the mechanic of Memory Release to Fanatio's sword. We have a statement specific to the sword of Fanatio and how it functions, and it takes precedence over statements used for general purposes.

K: You need to learn how Memory Release abilities work.

So you've gone back to the argument in the second line, without adding anything new. You are the one spamming the argument by doing this. It's okay if this is going over your head or something, some people just don't know how to argue properly for a debate, or don't realize the fallacies they're committing when making their argument. I'll explain them to you if you need, but I'm not wasting my time reading those discussions when it's irrelevant to the argument. That's just a common time waster tactic.

I have presented an objective description of how Fanatio's sword functions. You, in order to debunk it, have to either show a statement specific to Fanatio's sword with a higher authority that contradicts it. Or argue why the source isn't credible. You tried the latter before, but the situation you described with the Augma in promotional material is not comparable to this article. So you need to get over it, or find something that actually debunks the information presented.

 

[Kaantantr]

The only thing you are doing is saying the same things a dozen people have said and were proven wrong numerous times. Let me make it simpler for you:

You: This promotional material states the same thing as the Underworld myth states about the weapon so the myth must be true!

Me: That is not how any of the Divine Weapons work and a promotional description has no bearing over the established rules of the world which are elaborately explained, and your statement in no way illustrates an exception to the rule.

You have not shown a "higher authority" to claim Fanatio's sword is the only exception among the arsenal of Divine Weapons. As a matter of fact, you are so clueless on the topic that you cannot even bring the actual exceptions to the topic, such as the Time Splitting Sword of Bercouli, or the Divine Pistol of Istal, both of which tap into the system, rather than Sacred Arts to utilize elemental attacks. Which is exactly why I keep telling you to read previous backlog, rather than bumbling in stating the exact same things that were stated countless times, leading to admins issuing warnings at times.

Educate yourself.

 

[FleetingExistence]

Educate yourself.

Jeez man, relax, have you considered taking a chill pill?

You: This promotional material states the same thing as the Underworld myth states about the weapon so the myth must be true!

Me: That is not how any of the Divine Weapons work and a promotional description has no bearing over the established rules of the world which are elaborately explained, and your statement in no way illustrates an exception to the rule.

You haven't established that it is a myth, or why this rather objective statement should be taken as a myth. You are stating emphatically that since the Divine Weapons use Memory Release and Sacred Arts that a Divine Weapon must adhere to certain rules that make it impossible for Fanatio's to use the light of Solus for the attack. It doesn't matter why you think this, because this statement is specific to the sword itself. There is no incident where general rules for specific items within a verse trump specific descriptions of certain items within that category. If it does, it's usually used as a twist, you know, to reward the reader for paying attention.

You have not shown a "higher authority" to claim Fanatio's sword is the only exception among the arsenal of Divine Weapons. As a matter of fact, you are so clueless on the topic that you cannot even bring the actual exceptions to the topic, such as the Time Splitting Sword of Bercouli, or the Divine Pistol of Istal, both of which tap into the system, rather than Sacred Arts to utilize elemental attacks.

I didn't bring those up because they are irrelevant for my argument. The ways in which they are an exception to the system does not need to apply to Fanatio's sword for my argument to work.

Which is exactly why I keep telling you to read previous backlog, rather than bumbling in stating the exact same things that were stated countless times, leading to admins issuing warnings at times.

If you feel like you're in the right, then call an admin. You're more than free to do so.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Anyone got any idea what Aincrad's size and dimensions are. There's a specific feat pertaining to it that I need for Gameverse profiles.

 

[Leafbladie]

Anyone got any idea what Aincrad's size and dimensions are. There's a specific feat pertaining to it that I need for Gameverse profiles.

No idea, you could probably approximate it with a cone formula by using some pixel measurements. The diameter of the first floor is apparently 100 kilometers.

https://i.redd.it/lfcn4bi2xan21.png

 

[Kaantantr]

You're gonna have to pick a specific depiction of Aincrad though. Light Novel depiction of Aincrad is completely different than the Anime version. And the Anime version in general is inconsistent with the Ordinal Scale version based on Floor 100 depiction.

And then there is the problem of "Where do you pick as Floor 1" when the outer depiction has all its outer walls closed. As such, I would recommend against doing the pixel thing, with such inconsistencies muddling the scene. All we know for sure is "The Floor above is smaller than the one below".

I would recommend just picking Floor 1 size and acting as if it's a circular pyramid for calculation, featuring 99 Floors with a height of ~100 meters, as Floor 100 has no ceiling. v8 may have additional info about the basement dungeon, but I'm too lazy to check.

I have no idea where Leaf got the "100 kilometers" from for Floor 1, but it is 10 kilometers in diameter. Quite the drastic difference.

 

[Leafbladie]

You're gonna have to pick a specific depiction of Aincrad though. Light Novel depiction of Aincrad is completely different than the Anime version. And the Anime version in general is inconsistent with the Ordinal Scale version based on Floor 100 depiction.

And then there is the problem of "Where do you pick as Floor 1" when the outer depiction has all its outer walls closed. As such, I would recommend against doing the pixel thing, with such inconsistencies muddling the scene. All we know for sure is "The Floor above is smaller than the one below".

I would recommend just picking Floor 1 size and acting as if it's a circular pyramid for calculation, featuring 99 Floors with a height of ~100 meters, as Floor 100 has no ceiling. v8 may have additional info about the basement dungeon, but I'm too lazy to check.

I have no idea where Leaf got the "100 kilometers" from for Floor 1, but it is 10 kilometers in diameter. Quite the drastic difference.

I just typed an extra 0 by mistake. Also, the light novel depiction was admitted to be a mistake by Abec iirc.

 

[Leafbladie]

took me a bit to find, but here it is btw.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Was planning to use Gameverse Aincrad which is essentially anime Aincrad because well it is a gameverse calc.

 

[Kaantantr]

It's all the "same" Aincrad, but "different" due to the inconsistency. Again, Anime itself is not consistent in and of itself.

Also technically, the Gameverse is based on the Light Novels. You will often find references to never adapted in the Anime to begin with. Anime and LN are not separate timelines to begin with, the Anime is just a bad adaptation more often than not.

 

[DMUA]

I know off the numbers Xmark brought up on discord (which are in the progressive novels, supposedly), it would be

Floor 1 is 10 KM

Floor 100 is 3 KM

Each floor is 100 meters apart (the labyrinth is this tall, but that doesn't really affect anything trying to determine volume per say)

Each floor shrinks by 70 meters

So... Starting at 300 KM for a completely unmodified Aincrad, then you have to factor in the widening starting from top to bottom, then

I swear there's a mathmatic formula for adding up an increasing number like this but I'm entirely blanking

 

[Kaantantr]

Is it possible to get a reference for that 3km on Floor 100? Particularly because the floor is never reached in the novels to get such a number, let alone Progressive series.

But the formula you are looking for is probably the sum of consecutive numbers: (n / 2)(first number + last number) = sum

This should be fine based on my suggestion or yours, as we are basically assuming a linear decrease for the sake of simplicity. In reality though, the decrease is absolutely not linear and iirc it was Hollow Fragment that even put this out explicitly. Due to the oval shape, the upper floors decrease in size drastically faster than lower and middle floors. But again, I strongly recommend ignoring this fact, otherwise you would be throwing yourself at a brick wall.

 

[DMUA]

Yeah Mark didn't really mention what was in which volume, outside of the labyrinth being 100 meters

That said, assuming it's all on point, that'd get an overall 650000 meters, from there you'd just need how deep the actual ground of the floors are (but you could probably solidly assume like, 10 or 20 meters or something) and that'd be how much volume there is

From there, stone is 2700 kilograms per cubic meter and that's the mass

 

[CurrySenpai]

Yeah Mark didn't really mention what was in which volume, outside of the labyrinth being 100 meters

That said, assuming it's all on point, that'd get an overall 650000 meters, from there you'd just need how deep the actual ground of the floors are (but you could probably solidly assume like, 10 or 20 meters or something) and that'd be how much volume there is

From there, stone is 2700 kilograms per cubic meter and that's the mass

What about Iron as well? It's mentioned that Aincrad is made of Stone and Iron

 

[Leafbladie]

Oh yeah, if you wanted a more accurate scale, you could use a parabolic approximation for the shape and use an integral for rotation. Though I honestly don't think it matters that much if you just need an idea of the scale.

 

[CurrySenpai]

I really just need the volume and mass so I can figure out energy values for certain destruction methods. From there we can decide which one fits best.

 

[DMUA]

What about Iron as well? It's mentioned that Aincrad is made of Stone and Iron

Well, the exterior is mostly metal, but in terms of the ground and the buildings and everything else, it's better to just round it all up as stone for simplicity

anyways, may as well finish the volume calc

650000 meters is our overall diameter, estimating a height of 10 meters for each floor

325000^2 times 10 times pi is 3.3183072e+12 cubic meters, 3.3183072e+18 cubic centimeters

 

[CurrySenpai]

So fragmenting it would be 2.6546458e+19 joules aka Island Level?

 

[DMUA]

yeah

 

[CurrySenpai]

alright then that really helps. I’ll get to work on a couple of Sandboxes on what a Gameverse Kirito page would look like.

 

[Kaantantr]

Im curious why you need Aincrad's mass for a GV Kirito

 

[CurrySenpai]

Im curious why you need Aincrad's mass for a GV Kirito

It’s for the scene where Tia recreates Aincrad

 

[Kaantantr]

Ah, the Great Separation. But what does it have to do with Kirito exactly?

 

[CurrySenpai]

Kirito and Co. have to fight Tia later on so naturally they would scale to that fact.

 

[Kaantantr]

But the fight has nothing to do with the creation of Aincrad. I'm lost on the connection. It's not like it's a "power" of hers. She isn't the one doing it, it's the Cardinal System making it happen, because the lore states the two priests must pray to start the Great Separation. Think of it as "Quest Flags".

Like, if you tell Kirito to activate the Perfect Weapon Control of the Night Sky Sword, he can do it whenever he wants to. If you tell Tia to recreate Aincrad, she won't be able to, because it wasn't her power to begin with. Cardinal System had an agenda based on the Great Separation, but the system needs quest flags fulfilled to do its system magic.

Going further, the Great Separation in the lore is achieved via "magic" whereas Sword Art: Origin literally does not have magic either including Tia and Premiere, further highlighting that it's no entity but the Cardinal System doing things.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Yeah but the game mentions later on that Tia did have a part to play in recreating Aincrad. She was in fact able to lift the land.

That and her data also became linked with the Destruction Module that destroys Aincrad.

If I'm wrong on this I'll gladly eat my words as always but for once I think this actually makes sense.

 

[Kaantantr]

Ugh, I hate the Gameverse because nothing makes sense... They just make shit up as they go along to push the story wherever it needs to go. Do you have a sentence from Yui explicitly telling it's Tia's doing? That would be the final nail in the coffin, considering Kirito is merely talking from a normal perspective. Cardinal System needed two priests praying, but only had one doing so, as such the incomplete Aincrad was the most that was created.

Because throughout the entire game, both Tia as well as Premiere are basically possessed by Cardinal (as they are its creation anyways) to do certain tasks, sometimes without even realizing they are doing something, specifically because Cardinal needs those quest flags checked to continue creating Aincrad. Like the consecutive events where Premiere has the urge to go pray at seemingly random trees without explaining anything to the others.

Her data being linked to the destruction module makes sense, does not change anything on this front. Her creation is part of the destruction module considering the overarching story, since the Cardinal System is trying to follow Kayaba's final order to create Aincrad in order to be able to delete it, for which it is trying to follow the lore of Aincrad because Gameverse contrivence.

Heck, Cardinal System speaks to Kirito throughout the game, first at the very beginning cutscene by sending him a message, than at certain points in the game Yui explicitly talks about what Cardinal System is doing as we interact with the System Consoles throughout the zones, further establishing it's Cardinal who created a contrived plan on its own by creating the Grand Quest to fulfil the flags as mentioned above.

 

[CurrySenpai]

I can try and find a statement. Let me look through some cutscenes

 

[Kaantantr]

I can try and find a statement. Let me look through some cutscenes

Do let me know if you do. As a fellow LN reader, I'm just too used to Kirito explaining quests in human fashion and then having a separate paragraph of "Of course it's just Cardinal doing this and that, there is no way this NPC could do that" and the like. Every Progressive novel has like half a dozen instances of it

 

[CurrySenpai]

Just so I don't forget I'll put these here because it may be important

I don't know if her "determination" causing the quest to rewrite itself means something.

 

[Kaantantr]

Matches Premiere's side as well. Similarly, Premiere's refusal caused the quest the change too. Pretty much things like the Elf War Campaign or the Curse of Stachion in Progressive. Certain events that would normally cause the quest to reach a deadlock, such as a Key NPC dying before fulfilling its scripted goal, leading to the entire quest chain changing to adapt to the circumstances.

Premiere broke free from the assigned script, so Cardinal System adjusted the quest accordingly to require a single flag and lead into the incomplete Aincrad.

 

[CurrySenpai]

This is during the scene where they are discussing Aincrad falling from the sky unto Ainground. It happens right before the above screenshots.

I think with Yui expliciting stating it's Tia's doing and mentioning Quest Rewrites and all that at least shows that Tia has some sort of control / hold on the situation and it isn't just the Cardinal System's doing.

I'll try to find more definitive proof but I have a feeling I'll probably find a statement in the weirdest place (like a bed scene lol)

 

[Kaantantr]

Tia is indeed behind it. Anything that goes out of the script is behind the quests changing. That includes things like the potential of Premiere and Tia getting killed because the quest reward was a single CoR (I dont even remember what the currency was in HR xD), which for example would require Cardinal to basically throw out the entire lore, since in HR, NPC's do not respawn. Premiere refused to continue the prayers, so it was Premiere's doing that the quest changed to require a single flag. Tia hates humans, so rather than Cardinal deciding to delete the game after the creation of a complete Aincrad, it's now "Just create the chunk of rock and drop it to kill everyone", fitting Tia's personality instead, etc.

I was more referring to whether Yui says something about Tia actually using magic to create the incomplete Aincrad, which is where my issues stem from, as there is no magic in Ainground, despite the entire event requiring magic to pull per the Great Separation lore. And it is not within Tia's powers to actually do such a thing, as in she never ever can do it on her own volition, using her own powers at disposal.

 

[CurrySenpai]

Alright, I return cause I had to do Youtube and IRL stuff but I couldn't find a statement from Yui. I still think Kirito is a good enough source (at least in this instance) but for the sake of a compromise, I'll propose that he gets a possibly 6-C rating alongside the other HR characters. Does that sound good?