Superman (Rebirth) 2-A removal

[Armorchompy]

I think B makes sense here.

 

[Tllmbrg]

For gods sakes. I am not pressuring him. We need to confirm this, and can only do so by asking.

For the future don’t ping someone exclusively and ask what amounts to “Did you really mean, did you?”

 

[Antvasima]

Option B won out two different polls done, and the """support""" for Option A is basically ******* agenda rallying because "we don't want the key".

This is coming across hella strongly as, looping the damn polls until Option A wins out or the key gets yeeted altogether, it's actually the worst look I've seen on the wiki period.

No. I just want us to finally end this, and to not argue with AKM about it, as I trust his sense of judgement better than my own regarding revision threads.

 

[Antvasima]

For the future don’t ping someone exclusively and ask what amounts to “Did you really mean, did you?”

Given that there was a disagreement earlier, what was I supposed to say? I am far from a social genius.

 

[Tllmbrg]

Mask it by just mass pinging like you just did now
Trust me I’m inept socially too

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Could both sides please calm down?

Anyway, I don't think appeal to popularity or appeal to authority are particularly the best practice compared to pointing out genuine facts combined with our main policy on keys. Most option B supporters believe option A is appeal to authority where as the other option A supporters could see option B as appeal to popularity. But here's the main recap.

It's a 1-A feat as opposed to 2-A, but the feat is due to the nature of the realm rather than a power up Superman can regularly give himself access to. And the realm is something only Mr Mxy is able to amplify others to reach, so it's definitely a range upgrade for him. And this is a realm where even Batman level characters become 1-A when entering. Meaning we might need to give Batman a key too if we go with option B.

But anyway, I personally think Option A should be reworded that instead of labeling it as an extreme outlier, I would prefer to label it as an extremely situational requirement to the point where I wouldn't really give a key for. It's not like it was some transformation he tapped in when desperation requires, nor is it due to some personal weapon, it's getting amplified by Mr Mxy + being teleported to a realm. And it's not like Post-Crisis Superman has a Boomtube key for much of the same situations. This isn't really something that highlights Superman as being special, as anybody would be 1-A if they were amped by Mr Mxy + teleported to 6th dimension. Which any DC Superhero or even characters outside of DC would have been amped the same way. It's just a feat for Mxy and no one else really. So I'd rewrite it as this.

Option A: This is a range feat for Mister Mxyzptlk, in which he has the power to grant any character access to the 6th dimension; a realm that amplifies characters to 1-A. But we do not give out keys just because they entered the realm before.

Option B: Same as above, except we do give keys to each and every single character who has ever stepped foot in the 6th dimension and we acknowledge they only become this strong when amplified by Mister Mxyzptlk and taken there. Which includes Superman and Batman.

 

[Antvasima]

Mask it by just mass pinging like you just did now
Trust me I’m inept socially too

Well, I am mid-level autistic, not just Aspergers, and am currently very exhausted and rather sick as well. I am trying to push on anyway, but the quality of the work will automatically suffer.

 

[The_Impress]

Option A: This is a range feat for Mister Mxyzptlk, in which he has the power to grant any character access to the 6th dimension; a realm that amplifies characters to 1-A. But we do not give out keys just because they entered the realm before.

Option B: Same as above, except we do give keys to each and every single character who has ever stepped foot in the 6th dimension and we acknowledge they only become this strong when amplified by Mister Mxyzptlk and taken there. Which includes Superman and Batman.

DDM please stop moving around the goalpost because you have separate issues. This is improper as all hell. I am repeating this the second time.

 

[Confluctor]

The problem with option 1 is it assume this is an outlier and calls it a day. We shouldn't be dismissing every feat as an outlier while ignoring crucial context.


I don't even care if it doesn't end up on file. Just not call it an outlier, that's all.

 

[Antvasima]

Could both sides please calm down?

Anyway, I don't think appeal to popularity or appeal to authority are particularly the best practice compared to pointing out genuine facts combined with our main policy on keys. Most option B supporters believe option A is appeal to authority where as the other option A supporters could see option B as appeal to popularity. But here's the main recap.

It's a 1-A feat as opposed to 2-A, but the feat is due to the nature of the realm rather than a power up Superman can regularly give himself access to. And the realm is something only Mr Mxy is able to amplify others to reach, so it's definitely a range upgrade for him. And this is a realm where even Batman level characters become 1-A when entering. Meaning we might need to give Batman a key too if we go with option B.

But anyway, I personally think Option A should be reworded that instead of labeling it as an extreme outlier, I would prefer to label it as an extremely situational requirement to the point where I wouldn't really give a key for. It's not like it was some transformation he tapped in when desperation requires, nor is it due to some personal weapon, it's getting amplified by Mr Mxy + being teleported to a realm. And it's not like Post-Crisis Superman has a Boomtube key for much of the same situations. This isn't really something that highlights Superman as being special, as anybody would be 1-A if they were amped by Mr Mxy + teleported to 6th dimension. Which any DC Superhero or even characters outside of DC would have been amped the same way. It's just a feat for Mxy and no one else really. So I'd rewrite it as this.

Option A: This is a range feat for Mister Mxyzptlk, in which he has the power to grant any character access to the 6th dimension; a realm that amplifies characters to 1-A. But we do not give out keys just because they entered the realm before.

Option B: Same as above, except we do give keys to each and every single character who has ever stepped foot in the 6th dimension and we acknowledge they only become this strong when amplified by Mister Mxyzptlk and taken there. Which includes Superman and Batman.

This seems to make sense to me. Thank you for helping out. I don't know if the others here will accept changing things suddenly though.

 

[Antvasima]

The problem with option 1 is it assume this is an outlier and calls it a day. We shouldn't be dismissing every feat as an outlier while ignoring crucial context.

I don't even care if it doesn't end up on file. Just not call it an outlier, that's all.

This also seems to be a reasonable suggestion.

 

[Hellbeast]

DDM please stop moving around the goalpost because you have separate issues. This is improper as all hell. I am repeating this the second time.

This is definitely a shifting post, ngl the wording alone is supect

 

[The_Impress]

What DDM is arguing is deadass just, not what was being argued, he just invented new definitions for the options, right on the spot, and is using this to add on votes for Option A, when it was in regards to it being an outlier or not, and my attempts of addressing it 3 times is ignored completely., and also his votes added were just counted AND ARE STILL BEING COUNTED.

Not to mention it's the most biasedly worded options I've seen. It's barely above,

"Option A: Bullshit bureaucracy to deny stat

Option B: Actually representing character history"

 

[Antvasima]

So what do you think about Confluctor's suggestion then? It needs to be elaborated on though.

 

[Hellbeast]

If anything Medeus should be Option C
Option A: Outlier
Option B: Klol's thing
Option C: It's far too situational
They're all very clearly different ideas

 

[The_Impress]

If anything Medeus should be Option C
Option A: Outlier
Option B: Klol's thing
Option C: It's far too situational
They're all very clearly different ideas

...It's still invalid because Option C has nothing to do with A and B. It should have separate polling altogether

 

[Hellbeast]

...It's still invalid because Option C has nothing to do with A and B. It should have separate polling altogether

I'm not saying it does; hence why the ideal shouldn't be conflated with A and should be represented on its own terms

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I that case, just restart the poll and add option C. And people can just vote again. And again, I said calm down.

But anyway, I'm voting option C.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally wouldn't mind Hellbeast's suggestion. However, what about what Confluctor said? Can somebody build on that please?

 

[The_Impress]

I that case, just restart the poll and add option C. And people can just vote again. And again, I said calm down.

But anyway, I'm voting option C.

Again it should have separate polling altogether, it's unrelated to other options entire

Spoiler: kalm

DDM recognise this is the first time in weeks you've actually addressed my repeat allegations. I am calm, it's just not good thread behaviour in my opinion.

 

[KLOL506]

I leave for one freakin' minute and already the goalpost has been moved. Like, what the **** even is this thread anymore?

 

[Starter_Pack]

Let me just say, I do not want to touch any of this with a ten-foot pole.

Don't ping me about this, please. I do not like dealing in high tiers, and I don't care enough to take a side one way or another on this topic.

 

[Antvasima]

Should we create a new revision thread for this topic that includes some elaborated on versions of Medeus' and Confluctor's suggestions as selectable options?

 

[LordGriffin1000]

If the upgrade is that situational and can be applied to others and not just Superman, then I can see the argument of not applying it for that reason specifically.

 

[The_Impress]

Nah this is fine, it's all addressable in this thread alone, provided everything works out. Will need Option A/Option B addressed regardless, given we'll have to word a note for the file

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. I personally don't mind if wetry to work outsome kind of compromise solution based on what Medeus and Confluctor said though. Does anybody here have any suggestions?

 

[AKM sama]

Let me just say that the staff members who have already voiced their opinions for either of the options have done their job. If it's inconclusive, then that's what it is. Pinging them again and again is a really good way of harassing them to the point where they'd shift to any option just to get this over. Like, if someone gave their firm input, they wouldn't want to be pinged again and again to repeat their input. After a point they'd think they're being asked if they can change their choice.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. My apologies about that then. I just want us to somehow finish this topic, as the page is completely inaccurate and misleading as it is.

 

[Firestorm808]

If we consider it very specific circumstances for the rating, I'm not sure if we allow keys for conditions this specific.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Thank you for the reply.

@DarkDragonMedeus @Confluctor

Are any of you willing to try to figure out a compromise solution here, or should we go with option B in lack of better options, as it is still an improvement over the current state of Superman's page?

 

[Confluctor]

Option b is the only good option

 

[Qawsedf234]

I mean, I get not including because its only ever appeared once and there's a decent amount of context behind it, but its not an outlier. A character being amped just automatically invalidates that argument, especially when its a notably super amp beyond any previous amp.

 

[Kulf_Boba]

I mean, I get not including because its only ever appeared once and there's a decent amount of context behind it, but its not an outlier. A character being amped just automatically invalidates that argument, especially when its a notably super amp beyond any previous amp.

Right, I really don't know how this unnecessary discussion of A or B goes on if what needs to be discussed here is whether or not this amp can be on the profile.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, I suppose that option B can probably be applied then.

Would you be willing to handle it, Confluctor?

 

[The_Impress]

We still have to discuss DDM's thing regarding key relevance, actually

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Please elaborate.

 

[The_Impress]

So for DDM's proposals, options would then be (You're free to correct me Medeus, if I misinterpret):

Option A: Key is too minor to be listed given the number of appearances it has, that being, the lone comic, alongside having certain fixed conditions like the realm Superman is in, something we don't list, supposedly.

Option B: Key is relevant to be listed because it's greatly important in-verse, given it leads to a repeatedly referenced event that serves as a basis for most modern DC cosmic storylines, and these finale keys are commonly listed on the files

In the former option, given vs. debating notability, we'll have to word a note stating while we acknowledge the feat as valid, it was too specific and minor to be relevantly listed on the file, and in the latter case it gets listed as a separate key.

 

[KLOL506]

If this power up is incredibly important in-verse and has significant ramifications and consequences for later storylines and its cosmic nature down the line, I'd argue that's as blatant of a reason you need to add a key for it.

So yeah, I'm still all in for adding it as a key. Provided the justifications for why it is significant is added.

 

[Qawsedf234]

If this power up is incredibly important in-verse and has significant ramifications and consequences for later storylines

The main reason the key existed originally was to scale SMP1M to it. Since that profile is gone there's no reason to really keep it around.

 

[KLOL506]

The main reason the key existed originally was to scale SMP1M to it. Since that profile is gone there's no reason to really keep it around.

I'm not sure why SP1M would scale to Rebirth Superman anyway instead of scaling to his own feats or to All-Star Superman's feats.