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Super Sonic Rebuff

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5-A to 4-A is a massive jump and then 4-A to Tier 2 is also a massive jump; the variable should just cover both ends and there's no need to mention the 4-A part. FEB itself is 4-A but no one really directly scales from it. Everything higher than that has their own feats where as all the currently Tier 5 characters have no reason to scale from it. We also don't use assumptions; as Metal Sonic was only stated to be his best creation back when FEB never existed.
 
Metal Sonic has been stated time and time again that he's literally Eggman's strongest creation and just because the FEB was made after him doesn't negate that quote unless you can prove it.

-Wouldn't 4-A fall into it's own category of feats as well negating the idea of an outlier as it would scale to only super forms and Metal Overlord.

-The FEB being stated as Eggman's strongest machine was never stated or shown so by simple logic Metal Sonic is more powerful than it(but that would be an outleir so we skip that)and Metal Overlord by a long shot is stronger than the FEB so it would scale to him and super forms as it wouldn't be an iutleir
 
Just because Variable Tiers exist doesn't mean outliers exist. I know it's complicated to explain or grasp, but it is true. But the fact is, no one has ever tanked the FEB at point blank and it was never used again. And its only real purpose was to cause Emerl to go berserk just by watching it.
 
I gtg back to writing my book and have a near damn close deadline so I won't be able to debate much today or tommorow and I'll likely lose investment in the thread so good luck in reaching a general consensus
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
Just because Variable Tiers exist doesn't mean outliers exist. I know it's complicated to explain or grasp, but it is true. But the fact is, no one has ever tanked the FEB at point blank and it was never used again. And its only real purpose was to cause Emerl to go berserk just by watching it.
Click to expand...
Yeah I just wanted people to be aware and I realize that the quote isn't enough to legitimize an upgrade anyway gtg hope you guys reach a consensus.
 
I mean, it's not impossible. I don't agree with it (then again, you're talking to someone who finds Sonic to be 4-C at most) but it's not impossible.
 
But it wasn't removed right?

Super Sonic literally doesn't have "Varies" in his tier, man. Just look at the key, it only says "5-A to 2-C".
 
Metal Sonic is stated to be Eggman's most powerful invention in other sources than just statments even after Sonic Battle, Eggman always calls his newest invention his greatest one so it doesn't really count that much, meanwhile Metal is called that in oficial sources, not just statments.

I still think that the Final bosses from Advance 1 and 2 should be as powerful as the FEB, they were created by the same person to with similar amount of prep time to fight Super Sonic, they should be just as powerful as the FEB since it wouldn't make sense to Eggman not use his full power in those machines that took Super Sonic to be defeated, they don't need to interact to the FEB to scale to it
 
I don't remember him ever "Strongest" outside of Sonic CD. Furthermore, Emerl was heavily implied to be well the strongest fighter who appears in Sonic Battle. I know he technically lost to Sonic and they're within the same Tier, but his best statement "Destroying the Planet" is too vague; there's no time frame and there's no proof of blowing up the planet as oppose to simply destroying all life on the planet. Not to mention if Eggman used FEB close to the Earth, he would have vaporized everyone and everything including himself.

And again, comparing Eggman's mechs to the FEB is like comparing our Helicopters and Rocket Ships to our Nukes and Satellite lasers. Emerl is also clearly way weaker than the FEB since he wasn't even remotely close to copying its powers via overload and he's comparable if not superior to Base Metal Sonic.
 
The oficial Sonic Channel calls him that, and Eggman didn't built Emerl, it was the Nocturns Clan who did it

Except that I am not saying that every Eggman mech is just as powerful as the FEB, I am saying that only saying about the mechs that fought Super Sonic since it makes plenty of sense for Eggman to use his strongest mechs to fight him.
 
I know Emerl wasn't built by Eggman, but Emerl is still in the same league and likely above base Metal Sonic in terms of power. And still, even the End Game Boss mechs from the Sonic Advance Trilogy have no reason to be on part with FEB. They never tanked FEB, Super Sonic never tanked FEB, or even the likes of Dark Gaia never tanked FEB. There's far too many assumptions here.
 
We don't know about that since Sonic beat him and Metal is considered his equal, also Gemerl was built by Eggman after Battle being inspired by Emerl and his Ultimate form took Super Sonic to beat him, making him as strong as the FEB, and Eggman thought that it would take a miracle to defeat Metal Overlord even though he can make mechs that can fight Super Sonic and 4-A inventions.

It's not necessary to tank the FEB to scale to it, it's not a special invention that Eggman used special energy souces to built it, the only diference it that It has a feat other than fighting base Sonic or Super Sonic, most of Eggman's machines tiers come from scaling, both the end game final bosses and the FEB had similar purposes to be strong inventions that required the same amount of prep, the diference between them is that the FEB had feats and they have scaling
 
Except FEB has literally the only 4-A feat in the entire series and the amount of time it took to built isn't the relevant part. It's the only weapon designed for sheer destruction where as other mechs are designed for multi purposed. Just because someone took longer to built a helicopter than he did a warhead doesn't make the helicopter Tier 7. Plus, Eggman being able to built a FEB in the first place seems like a massive Outlier.

There are still far too many assumptions and there's 0 proof that Metal Overlord has more firepower than the FEB. And the best statements regarding Metal Overlord at at best Tier 5. 4-A is far too inconsistent to scale to any of Eggman's mechs.
 
Metal Overlord has no tier 5 statments, he is tier 5 via scaling, just like multiple Eggman machines.

The final bosses aren't multi purposed, they only have a objective of beating Super Sonic, which needs plenty of power, a helicopter isn't the best comparassion since it's main objective is not beat a super powered being.

The FEB isn't a outlier because most of Eggman's machines don't even have feats, all of his 5-A mechs and 6-A are via scaling,not because of their own feats, If Super Sonic were 4-A like he was then the 5-A mechs would be 4-A and would be consistent with the FEB.

Except that Eggman thought that they couldn't beat Metal Overlord even thought he has built mechs that could fight Super Sonic and FEB, he acts as him beating Overlord is impossible without the Chaos Emeralds, which wouldn't make sense of he could built machines stronger than it
 
I thought Metal Overlord also had a statement of being a thread to destroy the Earth. But still, it's an outlier because no other ground up invention even comes close to 4-A or heck, even with enhancements from all 7 Chaos Emeralds, Eggman struggles just to perform Tier 5 feats. By Multi Purposed, I mean they fly, have versatile combat operations, have durability, and can travel fast. FEB is just one purpose and that's astronomical levels of destruction far above everything that came before and after it and something even Eggman can't control. Like comparing a Battleship to a Warhead.

The Tier 2 stuff also came from other outside sources.
 
Eggman never needed all seven emeralds after the FEB to perform 5-A feats, in Unleashed his objective is to awaken Dark Gaia and he didn't built the Eclipse Cannon.

Except that it doesn't make sense for Eggman to use way lesser power to fight Super Sonic that he can use, a better comparassion is the FEB being the cannon of a ship and the end bosses are the ship itself.

It doesn't make sense for Eggman's strongest inventions like Ultimate Gemerl, the end bosses of Advance 1 and 2 and Overlord to be weaker than the FEB especialy since it didn't need outside sources and had the same amount of prep, the purpose of the FEB isn't important because the purpose of those other machines is to fight a super powered being by the strongest energy in the universe, ot wouldn't make sense for Eggman to use less power on them
 
Eggman awakened Dark Gaia, but it was Dark Gaia who performed the 5-A feat and not Eggman. And even with all 7 Chaos Emeralds, the Eclipse Cannon's best feat is still only Tier 5; Piercing a planet or star isn't even that impressive as they could be Tier 6 or 5 respectively. And I still trust Sera over some YouTuber given she's knowledgeable here and she actually lives in Japan. Hoshi can mean planet or star, but the former makes sense in this context since it's regularly used on planets or moons when fired.

Ultimate Gemerl is also another character who's best feat/statement is at best Tier 5 and is Metal Sonic's equal. But still lacks any reason to be comparable to FEB. It's also common sense for people in Japan to say stars when they meant to say planet. That's why Boros is only High 6-A instead of 4-C. I also will have to go to work soon and will be unable to reply for around 10 hours.
 
I will reply on a few hours since I will be busy but the youtuber has translated multiple games for years and also lives in Japan, and the oficial translation uses stars so it's better and more oficial than a fan one
 
I can reply now.

Rergadeless of the Eclipse Cannon statment to pierce stars is correct or not it doesn't really matter because it wasn't Eggman who created it, it was Gerald over 50 years ago, so it wouldn't really count as a Eggman invention that required the emeralds to perform tier 5 feats, also all the inventions that I cited were also created after SA2.

Ultimate Gemerl is only tier 5 via scaling, he has no planetary feats nor statments, If Super Sonic was also 4-A he also would be 4-A, like I said it doesn't make sense for Eggman's strongest inventions like Ultimate Gemerl, the end bosses of Advance 1 and 2 and Overlord to be weaker than the FEB especialy since it didn't need outside sources and had the same amount of prep, the purpose of the FEB isn't important because the purpose of those other machines is to fight a super powered being by the strongest energy in the universe, it wouldn't make sense for Eggman to use less power on them.
 
Let's look at every Eggman invention and final bosses to see if they are 5-A via scaling or because of their own feats.

3&K: it's because of scaling

Adventure: Chaos has a statment that he would destroy the world by Tikal, but he was using negative energy which is explicitaly weaker than positive ones.

SA2: the Eclipse Cannon wasn't built by Eggman so it wouldn't count for the power of his inventions and the Ark had a statment in the Final Story that the reaction of the emeralds would destroy the planet when the colony colided with Earth, it doesn't scales to the Final Hazard, he's 5-A via scaling.

Advance 1 and 2: it's because of scaling, they should be as powerful as the FEB.

Heroes: it's because of scaling, Metal Overlord should be as powerful as the FEB.

Shadow: Devil Doom is 5-A via scaling

Battle: the FEB is 4-A, Emerl doesn't scale to it

Advance 3:it's because of scaling, Ultimate Gemerl should be as powerful as the FEB

06: tier 2.

Rush: tier 2

Unleashed: the Chaos Energy Cannon main purpose was to awaken Dark Gaia, Dark Gaia did the 5-A feat when he was so weak he couldn't handle his own wheight: https://youtu.be/JG6KajmJXws?t=39 Perfect Dark Gaia is much stronger than that.

Rush Adventure: tier 2

Generations: tier 2

As you all can see none of Eggman's machines are 5-A via their own feats, they are via scaling, the top tier machine that Eggman built who has a feat is the FEB who is 4-A, it's fair to assume that the other top tier Eggman machines are also 4-A via being made without outside help and with the same amount of prep time, they should have the same power
 
I want to add that in JP SA2 the reason the ARK was going to destroy the planet was because the chaos emeralds where charging and turned the colony into a Chaos Bomb, so that's a tier 5 feat.

Unless that was what @TheUser meant.
 
I know the Eclipse Cannon was built by Gerald rather than Eggman, but it was still a super weapon that Eggman valued; implying it would be on par if not superior to most other weapons built by Eggman. And despite that, with 5 Chaos Emeralds, it destroyed a City which the calc of the feat was 6-B. With 6, it destroyed part of the moon, which was recently recalculated at Low 5-B. With 7 it was going to destroy the planet with Final Hazard which is 5-B at least, but 5-A with scaling. And again, they said Stars when they meant to say planet is the most logical solution. And even piercing stars isn't Tier 4.

Perfect Chaos was going to destroy the World via flooding it, which is High 6-A. And yes, he absorbed the Negative Energy, and Positive energy is stronger, but scaling is 5-A yes.

Devil Doom was going to destroy the Earth, which is 5-B, but he's 5-A via scaling.

Much of Eggman's inventions in Sonic Advance, Eggrobo, ect are actually all implied to be weaker than the likes of Dark Gaia or Doom, and even Black Doom seems to consider Eclipse Cannon above him in turn. Eggman also implied that FEB was also much stronger than Eclipse Cannon. This further elaborates why 4-A is inconsistent.

Emerl doesn't scale from FEB for sure, but I'll point out that Base Emerl was actually treated as top tier due to his copy ability, but then after he tried scanning the FEB, he lost his mind. He did get stronger physically, but he also got less intelligent was the only reason Sonic was able to beat him.

Base Dark Gaia isn't that much weaker than Perfect Dark Gaia, and he was actually amped up by Chaos Emeralds when he did the 5-A feat. Dark Gaia is also Light Gaia's equal, and at their peak they often fought and in which their battles were simply on a planetary scale. Also need to mention that Dark Gaia not only is the one with the 5-A feat, but is probably the strongest 5-A Sonic boss as he was actually able to somewhat harm Super Sonic where as others simply push him back without damaging him.

So in other Words, Final Egg Blaster >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Eclipse Cannon > Devil Doom > Most of Eggman's inventions including Advance 1+2 Bosses, Ultimate Gemerl, Metal Overlord, ect.

Dark Gaia is also stronger than Perfect Chaos, Final Hazard, and other "Tier 5" bosses that fought Super Sonic.
 
4-A being far too inconsistent? I mean the Eclipse Cannon is said to pierce stars (with no contradiction being added so the statement should be taken as fact) and the Final Egg Blaster can destroy a cluster of stars. Tier 4 Eggman mechs aren't like an outlier and it's just something pulled out of someone's anus. Especially if they say "Eggman was trying to use it to show off the Emeralds reality warping powers" or something like that.
 
Piercing through massive af red supergiants could maybe hit tier 4-C via the eyeballing the laser width and velocity cutting through and moving that dense volume matter aside. Kinda against powerscaling that weapon to emerald users since its a charged up thingy so it seems to be inconsequential lol.
 
I think someone once calc'd Piercing the Yellow Sun at 5-A, which that would be our standard if we're going to assume the translation is accurate. But the more proper translation of Sonic Adventure 2 simply said destroy the planet. Anyway, 4-A is literally Quadrillions of times more than 4-C and 80 Sextillion times greater than Dark Gaia's best feat.
 
Eggman's never said that the Eclipse Cannon was way stronger than his other inventions, and Eggman's calling the FEB his greatest invention means nothing, he called this his greatest invention after builting the Final Egg Blaster:https://youtu.be/HvZCbVflKwk Meanwhile Eggman called both Gemerl and Metal Overlord almost impossible to defeat when he was fighting against them, Eggman is way more realible about his machines when fighting against them, he exagerates the power of his machines every time they are on his side, they are also called his greatest and most powerful inventions in oficial sources outside of Eggman's word like the oficial Sonic Channel site

Black Doom never puts the Eclipse Cannon above him in his Devil form, maybe his normal but not his Devil form, he consideres human weapons child toys, also Perfect Dark Gaia and Devil Doom are 5-A via scaling, Black Doom wasn't going to destroy the Earth, that goes against his plan, they being stronger than the Advance bosses is more proof of 4-A

Dark Gaia wasn't amped, that's pure unfouded headcanon, the emeralds simply awakened him, he was so weak that he couldn't handle his own wheight https://youtu.be/JG6KajmJXws?t=39, he wasn't amped and his battles with Light Gaia were only planetary because their objective was to destroy the Earth, and Perfect Dark Gaia can stomp Chip easily, he sees him as a distraction

So a more correct scaling would be: Perfect Dark Gaia>Metal Overlord=Ultimate Gemerl>Devil Doom>Advance 1 and 2 end bosses=FEB>Eclipse Cannon>Black Comet
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
I think someone once calc'd Piercing the Yellow Sun at 5-A, which that would be our standard if we're going to assume the translation is accurate. But the more proper translation of Sonic Adventure 2 simply said destroy the planet. Anyway, 4-A is literally Quadrillions of times more than 4-C and 80 Sextillion times greater than Dark Gaia's best feat.
Click to expand...
The more acurate is the one that both the oficial game ( which is always going to more important than a fan translation) and a realible member of the Sonic fandom uses, Sera said that a long time ago, and even then being a adim here doesn't mean that you know more japanese than someone who lives there and has translated Sonic games for years, the Boros guide didn't have a oficial translation, it's a terrible comparassion, it was only in japanese, Wiindii has made over 49 videos translating Sonic games:https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbIN7v5nv4aNEpa7YCLyOHL1A85ECjfR9
 
"Official translations are always more accurate than Fan translations" False. There have been plenty of times where fan translations have been more accurate than official ones. Look at plenty of Anime/Manga verses that we considered Fan Translations more accurate than official ones. Because simply put, a lot of Japanese creators who translate Japanese to English don't really know English very well. Translators should be people who know both languages very well. Various official translations released in other countries have also had better/more accurate translations. And from what I heard, the Brazilian version actually has Eclipse Cannon say pierce the planets.

Cal said it on another thread that simply piercing a hole through the Sun is at best 5-A, and I believe it was Kepekley who calculated that. 4-C would be dispersing the entire star's GBE and causing it to explode; Piercing something =/= Exploding something.

Black Doom's goal was to annihilate the entire human race so the Black Arms could rule over it. And that was a plot point in the Dark side of the story, was that he and Shadow were going to use the Eclipse Cannon to "Destroy this Damn Planet". Why would they use the Eclipse Cannon to do it, if they had the power to do it themselves?

FEB has the same role as the Eclipse Cannon, but has shown to be far above Eclipse Cannon. But said feat is deemed inconsistent. He attached it to the Death Egg which makes it resemble that of the Death Star. Also, comparing Metal Overlord to FEB is like comparing General Grievous to the Death Star. When he says best or strongest regarding Metal Sonic, he simply means most effective for the job; not in terms of sheer firepower. Besides, Eggman has never been shown to construct a Tier 4 weapon from the ground up and once again is always constantly struggling to construct Tier 6 to Tier 5 weapons and robots.

Dark Gaia being unable to sustain its own weight, simply means he was a glass cannon at the time. And it woke him up by literally fueling him with Chaos power. Chip is only a weakened version of Light Gaia not even Tier 6 let alone Tier 5. Gaia Colossus on the other hand did go toe to toe with Perfect Dark Gaia long ago. There's also no proof that Dark Gaia could survive the FEB and that he would have been vaporized by it if Eggman actually used it by the Earth.
 
Black Doom explicitaly says that he doesn't want to destroy the planet in the last story:https://youtu.be/CBisWZ8eKV0 (0:57)

I am Brazilian, it says stars, as well as a realible translator uses stars, this is fan word vs the games, video games are diferent from anime, Wiindii knows both English and japanese.

Eggman says that it's impossible to defeat Overlord without the emeralds and it would be a miracle with them.

A better comparassion is Darth Vader and the Death Star, also he's stated to be the most powerful as well.

As I already said Eggman's machines tier comes from scaling, if Super Sonic is 4-A them they are also 4-A, it doesn't make sense for Eggman not to use his full potention.

Chip is Light Gaia and he specificaly says that Eggman awakening him and Dark Gaia weakened both of them:https://youtu.be/QigMHL63YKY ( the entire cutscene) also nothing says that Dark Gaia couldn't tank the FEB when Eggman considered it stronger than himself, and when I said Chip in my previous comment I meant Collossus, Perfect Dark Gaia can stomp him in the final battle and will die If Sonic doesn't breaks Dark Gaia shield
 
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