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Super Sonic Rebuff

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Yep just watched the scene and he states this when he knocks the Sonics out

"That was just to soften you up.Now it's time for you to meet your doom"
 
Dark649 said:
5-A Sonic was shut down in the past because Adventure Sonic / Knuckles were unable to damage and needed to freeze Chaos 6 in order to defeat it, but Sonic has clearly grown much stronger in the Modern Era, Infinite Sun attack is stronger than it looks.
Click to expand...
Tbf I considered that to be game mechanics and like you said: he has grown stronger over the years. Hence why he was able to be Perfect Chaos im Generations. Storywise, it makes sense for a Base Sonic to fight against Perfect Chaos. And no, Perfect Chaos isn't weaker in Generations. That's just a incel-like excuse to downplay and to prove a nonexistent point.
 
I forgot to mention that Eggman literally called Egg Breaker his "Latest, greatest and most powerful creation yet", so that debunks any reason to scale Metal Overlord from Final Egg Blaster considering it came after both of them and it lacks any feats. Egg Breaker was easily defeated by Base Shadow, and it can be easily gunned down by a bunch of Tier 9 weapons so it's only High 6-A. And once again, none of the Mechs that fought Super Sonic were anywhere near the challenge of Dark Gaia. And Cal also still elaborated plenty of details regarding Final Egg Blaster. And he also multiple great points about assuming it's comparable to every single weapon that fought Super Sonic; the Ninja Turtles, Marvel, and DC examples were all good points. We can't make all these featless weapons that Shadow basically keeps saying they wouldn't even scale from Super Sonic to begin with for the similar reasons surrounding Perfect Chaos.

Sonic was never stated to have gotten stronger in any source material other than Sonic Forces, and that's probably a one time thing; and even then, it's still High 6-A at best is Infinite's best feat. And Sonic is not like Dragon Ball where characters constantly train and get stronger, Sonic is more like Marvel and DC comics in which they're simply inconsistent. And again, stinging a giant in the eyes is not game mechanics, it's just commons sense for why it's not a reason for scaling. Also, in the 3DS version, he didn't even fight Perfect Chaos and instead struggled against base Biolizard with the exact same difficulty level base Adventure Shadow did. Implying he isn't that much different from Adventure Sonic who is in turn far below Chaos 6 or Perfect Chaos. And Chaos 0 was also a threat to some of those same characters who are Sonic's equal.

Anyway, back to the 4-A stuff. I'm not saying Matt or Everlasting are gods who's words are obsolete. Even though the latter probably is given his name. However, Everlasting is also very knowledgeable on Sonic like he is with many different verses. Also, it requires being knowledgeable on dozens of verses to truly be knowledgeable on any verse for that matter. Since it takes those people to know what is or isn't an outlier, or what is and isn't consistent, or to know the feats are concrete or not. But still, they both agree with Final Egg Blaster being inconsistent and that there's literally 0 evidence for any of Eggman's creations to be even remotely close to it. Or there's even no evidence for Dark Gaia to even scale from it. And both me and Cal have also explained in detail and mentioned how inconsistent and flowery Eggman tends to be with his words of introduction.

So all in all, 4-A is just not consistent at all.
 
Those just sound like flowery language, and there's also been times where Sonic states to have gotten weaker in other sources.
 
I've already seen that thread on the highlights thread, but I'm taking care of other things before I comment.
 
-Egg Breaker being his latest and greatest and most powerful creation is flowery and moxie language.Eggman calls his machines like that all the time like with Infinite.The quote of Metal Overlord being Eggman's most powerful machine is an offical statement from the game so the quote absolutely checks out.

-It's not comparable to every weapon Super Sonic has fought I gave a list of whom would scale above and non are outliers:Super Forms,Metal Overlord,Final Hazard,and Super Forms.

-There's literally no opposition to the 5-B thread for base Sonic

-Matt and Everlasting's input provides no proof at all unless they show me stuff they stated.It really doesn't matter as they haven't made an attempt to debunk any of the claims in support.Also the quote wasn't from Eggman it was in the Offical Sonic Guide which stayed Metal Sonic/Metal Iverlord is Eggman's most powerful creation
 
Getting Sharper is simply a way of saying they're more lively or confident. Not an outright Tier jump levels of growing stronger. There's also been times where Sonic called himself getting rusty in some of the Story Book Sonic games; though it was mainly do to having a cold early in Secret Rings.

But still, there's no proof that Metal Overlord has more firepower than Final Egg Blaster, and Call has elaborated that it takes far too much time to charge.
 
The fact that idk he's canonically more powerful than the FEB. The difference is that Cal's stuff doesn't have an offical quote supporting it while this does along with massive PIS which would make no sense.

Sonic also practices more making him stronger and more skilled not a teir jump but he still improves in power
 
Here's the rundown

The Final Egg Blaster would be weaker than the machines used by Eggman to truly defeat Sonic as the Final Egg Balster was never used again to destroy Sonic.It would be very odd for Eggman to have a weapon that's vastly stronger than Sonic and his Super form and not use it against him.Metal Overlord has been outright stated to be Eggman's most powerful creation (without help) this quote proves that Metal Overlord is stronger due to sheer statements.

For example.....

Darth Sidious has been stated to be the most powerful Sith Lord placing him above Darth Vader,Nihilus,Plagueis,Vitiate and etc

Metal Overlord has been stated to be Eggman's most powerful creation placing him above all other of his creations Death Egg Robot,Nega Wisp Armor and etc.The Final Egg Blaster would fall under this category as it's Eggman's creation.Also saying that Final Egg Blaster is 4-A and nothing else is massive PIS as Eggman's never tried to use it against Sonic at all.As the blast would kill him immediately.

-Metal Sonic/Metal Overlord: has been stated to be Eggman's most powerful creation he made by himself placing him above the likes of the Final Egg Blaster

-All Super Forms: Super Sonic,Tails and Knuckles fought and ultimately defeated Metal Overlord.

-Perfect Dark Gaia: Fought both Super Sonic and the Gaia Colossus

-Final Hazard: Fought Super Sonic and Super Shadow

Essentially every boss that battles and contendd with Super forms that isn't Low 2-C or 2-C would be bumped up.4-A Super Sonic is super consistent and fits in as shown above with the 5-B scaling to base.
 
The reason Final Egg Blaster was never used against Sonic was because it was explained multiple times. Eggman does not want to destroy the planet; he simply wants to rule over it. But the Final Egg Blaster would do exactly that; it would destroy everything and Eggman himself would be at risk of dying with it. Of course he would never use it against Sonic or Super Sonic. And Overlord's statement is still Sega not caring about power scaling. Also, you keep bringing up Star Wars when you asked Cal not to bring up Ninja Turtles; despite his good example of Technodrome having the same statements as Metal Overlord, but it's not 2-A.
 
-Yet he never shows concern about using his other most powerful robots to attack Sonic.Also Eggman very well could attack Sonic in space and not from Earth like in unleashed or generations where destroying the planet wouldn't be a concern for him.Again stating this's is massive PIS.Eggman loathes Sonic and will do literally anything to kill him.

-Can you prove the statement is Sonic Team not caring about scaling as that's a very bold claim that's supported by no evidence whatsoever and I gave you a list of characters whom scale and none of them are outliers

-I never asked Cal to stop bringing it up.The point is that the Technodrome jumping to 2-A is a quantum leap and is a far different scenario here as the gap isn't infinite in size literally it's overall a bad example to use.The Star Wars example works as it's literally the same scenario here.Again canon statements are undeniable unless they contraidct canon to such a large degree
 
"Eggman loathes Sonic and would do anything to kill him" and yet he teams up with him all the time and has legit helped him from time to time. Eggman isn't really all that evil and doesn't really murder people. He just has an ego and wants to be looked up to and worshipped. In Unleashed, he separated the planet without killing anyone; he didn't completely destroy it. And Eggman with Time Eater was trying to create a new world and be god of his own universe.

They don't care because most authors or fiction don't care about power scaling. This is cut and dry. And the blatant inconsistencies show this; Sonic struggling to run away from the police one day and then taking on Giant Monsters the next. Same with Super Sonic, struggling with planetary stuff one day and then taking on Universal stuff the next. Except the way Shadow said, "Dark Gaia is the only planetary threat Sonic struggle with" implies none of the other mechs in the Advance series would even backwards scale from Sonic in the first place. But, I don't think anyone scales from Final Egg Blaster and neither does any staff member who commented here or on Discord.

You did say, "Different verse with different standards." And I also explained the difference between comparing 2 or more characters to comparing a character/robot to a Giant Satellite weapon.
 
DarkDragonMedeus said:
"Eggman loathes Sonic and would do anything to kill him" and yet he teams up with him all the time and has legit helped him from time to time. Eggman isn't really all that evil and doesn't really murder people. He just has an ego and wants to be looked up to and worshipped. In Unleashed, he separated the planet without killing anyone; he didn't completely destroy it. And Eggman with Time Eater was trying to create a new world and be god of his own universe.

They don't care because most authors or fiction don't care about power scaling. This is cut and dry. And the blatant inconsistencies show this; Sonic struggling to run away from the police one day and then taking on Giant Monsters the next. Same with Super Sonic, struggling with planetary stuff one day and then taking on Universal stuff the next. Except the way Shadow said, "Dark Gaia is the only planetary threat Sonic struggle with" implies none of the other mechs in the Advance series would even backwards scale from Sonic in the first place. But, I don't think anyone scales from Final Egg Blaster and neither does any staff member who commented here or on Discord.

You did say, "Different verse with different standards." And I also explained the difference between comparing 2 or more characters to comparing a character/robot to a Giant Satellite weapon.
Click to expand...
-Eggman's only teamed up with Sonic when he absolutely has to.Your also forgetting in Generations he literally tried killing him with the Time Eater and was gonna kill the 2 Sonics if the Chaos Emeralds didn't revitalize them."He isn't evil"are you serious?He absolutely would murder people like in forces he was going to kill all the civilians with Infinite's sun and literally devour all Time and Space within the Universe with the Time Eater

-For The trillionth time and I don't want to repeat myself in this,He should have varying keys of power as to make up for the inconsistencies.Hell the upgrade to 4-A is more plausible as the planetary threats would be 4-A making things make more sense and since base Sonic is mostly agreed to be 5-B it surely works out and makes the most sense.

-I really don't care what staff member comments on discoed.If they don't say anything on here it doesn't count and it shouldn't.Unless you have feasible proof of their claims your argument is not supported by these "staff memebers".Please note that Super Sonic struggles with Perfect Dark Gaia who is far stronger than base Dark Gaia and by scaling with the FEB(which btw more people agree it scales)would be 4-A which makes sense as to why Super Sonic struggled with him.

-Here I'm using the context of the quote and not what the quote is comparing.Im saying the context of the quote is the same as

Sidious >All other Sith Lords

Metal Overlord>All other of Eggman's creations

Also calling the quote Sega ignoring scaling makes no sense when the scaling fits perfectly.This has to stop soo and I'm tired of debunking the same arguments but just presented differently
 
I never said he wasn't evil, I simply said he's not as evil as people present him. In Sonic Unleashed, Tails even said "Even Eggman isn't that cruel." Sonic has literally 0 direct 4-A feats; Tier 2 stuff covers being above FEB, but not his low end stuff. And there's literally nothing in the series as a whole that even reflects 4-A; not Overlord, not Eclipse Cannon, not Dark Gaia, no one. There's also not a single Discussion Mod or Admin who said they agreed with the 4-A upgrade, which a discussion rule did say that someone one of those titles has to approve.

It doesn't feat perfectly at all if not a single one of those mechs even has a feat remotely close to 4-A; not even Metal Overlord.
 
-I'm just saying Eggman would absolutely kill Sonic if he had the ability to do so

-Shadow and everyone else in agreement with this thread think his low end should be 4-A as it's a greater feat than 5-A.

-please show proof that they all disagree because I honestly don't believe so the same thing happened with the Illumina thread.You really can't argue this the FEB is inferior to Metal Overlord by canon statements just saying he doesn't scale without proving it means nothing.

It fits because as Metal Overlord is superior to the FEB who battled Super Sonic whom battled against Perfect Dark Gaia and Final Hazard and Super Sonic is comparable to other super forms.Fits perfectly
 
Shake and Shadow said they were more so neutral on 4-A coming back. Everlasting and Matt both said they agree on Discord that 4-A is inconsistent. The Real Cal Howard brought up details on the thread about his concerns with the 4-A ratings. And Wokistan didn't quite elaborate, but he was iffy on using the statement alone to just assumed Metal Overlord has higher attack potency than Final Egg Blaster. Dark649 appeared to be neutral, but that's still at least 3 Admins and one former Admin who agree with the low ends remaining Tier 5.
 
-Proof of their claims on discord?

-Shake and Shadow both agree with the Upgrades tho..... They both stated that they agree with 4-A being on the Low end

-Proof that Ever is against this?

-Even with the admins your side is still outnumbered as most people here agree with 4-A but that doesn't matter like at all

-One of these Admins are refuting let alone debunking our claims which is a very weak opposition

Post what you want for now but I won't be responding for a while
 
It's on private messages, but you can ask Matt himself to confirm this. As for Everlasting, I'm not too skilled at photoshopping and still learning to get used to it. Being Outnumbered =/= being out matched. And we're using common sense; Feats > Statements and Tier 5 is literally super consistent with low end Super Sonic's regular showings; far more consistent with 4-A. Literally just a 1 time thing that was never ever used for combat is the only 4-A feat in the entire verse.

Eggman being able to produce a 4-A weapon when he regularly needs outside help to make Tier 5 weapons shows that making the Final Egg Blaster from the ground up is an outlier.
 
It shouldn't matter how consistent the feat is.While 5-A is more consistent it's dwarfed by 4-A as having a stronger feat cancels out a less powerful and irrelevant feat.That being said a while back in this thread I proposed a solid 5-A rating and a possibly 4-A rating but no one took that up and I though it was bad so I never brought it up but it seems it would make sense to have here but whatevs. You can't chose feats over statements when the statement is a feat in it's own.Yeah it was one thing but that shouldn't decredit a 4-A rating.
 
Eggman doesn't need outside help to make tier 5 machines, that's pretty clearly explaneid by me, most of them in only fought Super Sonic it doesn't make sense for Eggman not to use his strongest inventions to fight Super Sonic.

Just because Matt disagreeded doesn't make his opinion superior to ours just because he is a adim, he needs to post arguments, and Everlasting is a ex-adim

Tier 5 is also only one feat from a weakened Dark Gaia, meanwhile nothing is against Eggman's top tier machines to be as strong as the FEB, so assuming that it would make them as powerful makes 4 final bosses in the 4-A, way more consistant than one feat from a weakened Dark Gaia
 
Also Eggman straight up was going to kill the entire cast in Forces,said in the same game that he hates Sonic, he definaly would use his strongest mechs to fight and beat Super Sonic, assuming that Eggman doesn't use that power is a big strech.

Also they don't need to interact with the FEB to be as strong as it, I already explaneid why the FEB isn't special compared to the other mechs.

Also suporting Overlord being stronger than the FEB is that Eggman thought that it was impossible to beat him without the emeralds, even though he can make 4-A inventions
 
Theuser789 said:
Let's look at every Eggman invention and final bosses to see if they are 5-A via scaling or because of their own feats.

3&K: it's because of scaling

Adventure: Chaos has a statment that he would destroy the world by Tikal, but he was using negative energy which is explicitaly weaker than positive ones.

SA2: the Eclipse Cannon wasn't built by Eggman so it wouldn't count for the power of his inventions and the Ark had a statment in the Final Story that the reaction of the emeralds would destroy the planet when the colony colided with Earth, it doesn't scales to the Final Hazard, he's 5-A via scaling.

Advance 1 and 2: it's because of scaling, they should be as powerful as the FEB.

Heroes: it's because of scaling, Metal Overlord should be as powerful as the FEB.

Shadow: Devil Doom is 5-A via scaling

Battle: the FEB is 4-A, Emerl doesn't scale to it

Advance 3:it's because of scaling, Ultimate Gemerl should be as powerful as the FEB

06: tier 2.

Rush: tier 2

Unleashed: the Chaos Energy Cannon main purpose was to awaken Dark Gaia, Dark Gaia did the 5-A feat when he was so weak he couldn't handle his own wheight: https://youtu.be/JG6KajmJXws?t=39 Perfect Dark Gaia is much stronger than that.

Rush Adventure: tier 2

Generations: tier 2

As you all can see none of Eggman's machines are 5-A via their own feats, they are via scaling, the top tier machine that Eggman built who has a feat is the FEB who is 4-A, it's fair to assume that the other top tier Eggman machines are also 4-A via being made without outside help and with the same amount of prep time, they should have the same power
Click to expand...
Reposting this, if we assume that the bosses that I listed as strong as the FEB are 4-A that would né more consistant than 5-A
 
Oblivion Lightning said:
Here's the rundown

The Final Egg Blaster would be weaker than the machines used by Eggman to truly defeat Sonic as the Final Egg Balster was never used again to destroy Sonic.It would be very odd for Eggman to have a weapon that's vastly stronger than Sonic and his Super form and not use it against him.Metal Overlord has been outright stated to be Eggman's most powerful creation (without help) this quote proves that Metal Overlord is stronger due to sheer statements.

For example.....

Darth Sidious has been stated to be the most powerful Sith Lord placing him above Darth Vader,Nihilus,Plagueis,Vitiate and etc

Metal Overlord has been stated to be Eggman's most powerful creation placing him above all other of his creations Death Egg Robot,Nega Wisp Armor and etc.The Final Egg Blaster would fall under this category as it's Eggman's creation.Also saying that Final Egg Blaster is 4-A and nothing else is massive PIS as Eggman's never tried to use it against Sonic at all.As the blast would kill him immediately.

-Metal Sonic/Metal Overlord: has been stated to be Eggman's most powerful creation he made by himself placing him above the likes of the Final Egg Blaster

-All Super Forms: Super Sonic,Tails and Knuckles fought and ultimately defeated Metal Overlord.

-Perfect Dark Gaia: Fought both Super Sonic and the Gaia Colossus

-Final Hazard: Fought Super Sonic and Super Shadow
Click to expand...
 
Consistency shouldn't matter with a lower teir feat when you have a higher teir feat that's not an outlier and is supported by canon statements.

This honestly seems like ignoring basic scaling just to prevent an upgrade.I seen other verses upgraded with offical statements just like this but they go through While this hasn't which makes me suggest downplay.
 
First of all, @User, please don't triple post because that's the definition of spamming. 2nd, there's literally only one 4-A weapon in the entire series that not even Sega is aware of how impressive Star System busting is compared to every other feat. Cal also brought up that it takes a whole minute just to perform a plant level feat; and that its only 4-A is via long time charging. Look at Dragon Ball saga's Tien's Tri Beam, that has a 8-A calc, but it doesn't scale to the people stronger than him. No one in Dragon Ball saga is 5-B or Relativistic speed scaling from being superior to Master Roshi. Eggman constructing Final Egg Blaster is an outlier.

Again, Eggman regularly needs all 7 Chaos Emeralds just to perform Tier 5 feats. Eclipse Cannon wasn't even built by Eggman but Gerald, and it requires all 7 Chaos Emeralds to destroy the Earth alone. Emerl also required all 7 Chaos Emeralds to destroy the Earth based on Geralds statement. Dark Gaia was awakened by the 7 Chaos Emeralds being drained and that's what Dark Gaia used to perform the 5-A feat. Light Gaia and Dark Gaia at both there primes also have never effecteed anything beyond the Earth in there countless battles. Super Sonic and Super Shadow also struggled to stop the Final Hazard's Chaos Bomb; while Shadow nearly died in the process.

The number of feats on a certain level Vs one random high end feat that isn't even a direct fan matters very much. No one has any reason to directly scale from Final Egg Blaster and it's been discussed numerous times and was shot down by nearly every staff member who's knowledgeable on Sonic. Even Everlasting once supported it, but he know agrees it's inconsistent. Also, Cal said he trusts Everlasting's judgement more than everyone else's put together regarding Sonic. Matt agrees with all of my points and Cal's points. 4-A Sonic cast requires far too many assumptions and special treatment we could be giving to a lot of verses based on that logic. It's the same thing as making all of 4Kids Shredder's strongest inventions Tier 2 or the same thing as making Lex Luthor's Warsuit Tier 2.
 
Don't mean to butt in but @DDM How impressive the creators think a feat is has never mattered to ratings, and in fact I would argue is a defining part of this site. Also people learn as children how much bigger stars are than planets, so it hardly feels like a solid claim to say a company doesn't understand how much more impressive a feat of this scale is

Minor things probably but I had to address this
 
If you want to appeal to Ever, how about posting his arguments? He's banned so he can't do it himself but nobody has any reason to care about "ever doesn't like it" if you don't explain why he doesn't. Nobody's beyond being challenged.
 
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