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Super Sonic 4-A Return Continued

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Theuser789 said:
So if acepted this should be the description:" Possibly 4-A: Super Sonic defeated both Ultimate Gemerl and Metal Overlord who Eggman thought that only the emeralds could beat them even though he built weapons like the FEB which can destroy a cluster of stars
Click to expand...
Is my description good enough to go?
 
The thing is Eggman likely built the FEG [his first 4-A weapon] after Heroes due to Shadow plot. They were 4-A because Eggman searched the emeralds and it was said that the emeralds power should be above everything, however said power varies and despite Eggman intelligence, he is unable to guess the exact grade of power the super states had in the circustances they fought, he doubted that the emerald were powerful enough to beat Overlord yet they were able to.
 
My point is that Eggman thought that none of his machines aside from the emeralds could beat him( not that he thought it would take a miracle since Sonic was confident the entire time and he has alot of experience with them) even though he built machines that could fight Super Sonic, the FEB isn't a special machine, the rating would be 4-A due to being superior to Eggman's machines, the possibily would come from the timeline problems
 
Overlord copied Chaos Energy Cal, I showed you the scans, he scales to 4-A, the FEB wasn't the a special weapon

He can even use Chaos Control, a technique that's necessary chaos energy
 
So I guess the characters who need to have possibly 4-A would be:

Sonic,Tails, Knuckles, Mighty, Ray, Mecha Sonic, Ultimate Gemerl, Shadow, Classic Sonic, Silver, Blaze, and maybe Perfect Dark Gaia and Overlord

Edit: Dark Gaia shouldn't scale
 
Unless you're implying that Froggy is 5-A, no, not enough. Froggy ain't a Chaos Emerald. Neither is a single Chao. And again, no, the FEB is a special weapon. An additional super-cannon to the freaking Death Egg is a super special weapon. Even if it wasn't, Eggman only had 4-A prep feats after Overlord was a threat according to you guys. His statement that only the Emeralds could pose a threat is moot lest we also say he's 2-C for future events.
 
Perfect Dark Gaia is rather unimpressive since he fought a Super Sonic that had his power drained earlier and destroyed Dark Gaia eyes afterwards, then immediately fainted after the battle was over which didn't happen in Adventure/Heroes, it should not scale.
 
The FEB can't copy powers and Metal says Chaos data copied, which is later confirmed by Eggman and he uses Chaos Control, using this logic he shouldn't even be 5-A due to only copying characters that are 5-B, he only became this powerful via his copying ability, something that the FEB doesn't have, he became this powerful by using other peoples strengh, not from the base up

The robots that fought Super Sonic in Advance 1 and 2 were built before Heroes

We are scaling him to be superior to all machines that Eggman built, not that it would take a miracle, Eggman's tier 2 machines were built with outside help
 
The Egg Salamender uses the power of the Sol Emeralds, the Egg Wizard uses the power of the stars, and the Time Eater is alien, not a Eggman creation, he simply conquered it, but he himself says that he needed help from himself, that he couldn't alone.

Eggman Nega is a diferent person from Eggman, he's Eggman's descendent

Needing help from yourself is still outside help, he couldn't do it alone
 
Theuser789 said:
So I guess the characters who need to have possibly 4-A would be:
Sonic,Tails, Knuckles, Mighty, Ray, Mecha Sonic, Ultimate Gemerl, Shadow, Classic Sonic, Silver, Blaze, and maybe Overlord
Click to expand...
So would those be the ones that scale to it?
 
I'm back, and I still don't think we should apply 4-A ratings to anyone. First of all, Dark649 brought up points that weaken comparisons to the FEB. First of all, a lot of the Sonic games seem to in a different chronology despite release dates. Apparently, Sonic Battle takes place after Shadow the Hedgehog and Sonic Heroes given Shadow doesn't have amnesia in Battle when he does in Heroes and Shadow.

So in other words, Overlord would have no reason to compare to FEB. And even if it did come after, the statement still only says Metal was his strongest "Robot" not "Creation". FEB is not a robot and thus wouldn't count. It's a Superweapon that can't be controlled and just destroys everything nearby. It has not precision or durability that scales from its own attack. The only thing it can be compared to is the Eclipse Cannon. Where in the case, FEB is much stronger than Eclipse Cannon even with all 7 Chaos Emeralds.

When Eggman built Metal Sonic or Gemerl, most of his work was put to having control, versatility, smart AI, ect. And were designed to be able to beat Sonic, but that's it. Creating them is like creating androids and super computers. FEB is nothing but pure destruction and is more akin to the strongest nuclear warheads. Eggman if the chronology referenced by Dark649 is correct, then Eggman wouldn't even have the FEB at his possession. And him being unable to stop it would have 0 meaning to compare to FEB. Furthermore, even if he did, Eggman probably wouldn't even use FEB anyway because FEB would have not only destroyed Overlord or Ultimate Gemerl, but the entire planet or even the rest of the solar system as well.

And yeah, on second thought, Dark Gaia fought a weakened Super Sonic, and is considered not all that impressive otherwise. Plus he's where 5-A comes from in the first place which is also very consistent with the plot of many other End Game Sonic bosses. So he and many other bosses should be no higher than 5-A. I still disagree with Metal Overlord or Ultimate Gemerl scaling, but they'd be the only bosses who could possibly be 4-A if we're going to use the lack of evidence literally. But I still believe 5-A is best for everyone not Tier 2.

Cal was only joking about making Technodrome Tier 2. It's not Tier 2 because it lacks Tier 2 direct feats among other things. However, on the topic of using prep time for scaling, the Phineas and Rick examples don't apply here. They creating stuff with Low 2-C or 3-C effects, but they never created a robot with durability or striking strength equal to those respectively. Iron Man and Lex Luthor actually have Exo Suits or Power Armor designed to increase their strength to go toe to toe with the likes of Superman. Brainiac isn't assumed to be capable of building power armor or robots that are physically Tier 2 just because he constructs Tier 2 reality warping technologies. Brainiac's strongest mechs are only 4-B physically. And that's exactly the same type of scenario.

On topic, the another reason Technodrome can't be Tier 2 is that the Turtles have infiltrated it and aren't one shotted by its weapons. There's also the fact that Donatello can tamper with Shredder's technologies and use them against him. I guess Don can make Tier 2 weapons and Shredder can tank them. Not to mention Tengu Shredder being far above everything regular Shredder can do. Making Dark Gaia or other low leveled Chaos Emeralds users 4-A would be the same as making Tengu Shredder 2-A.

So in conclusion, Metal Overlord or Ultimate Gemerl can't be 4-A without direct feats scaling from FEB. Using vague, generic statements are not feats. And there's also the problem that Metal Overlord predates FEB in canon to consider. Scaling them from Dark Gaia's negative Chaos Energy feat is fine, as that's very consistent with other "Planetary" statements that are frequent throughout Sonic, but 4-A based on something that isn't even close to a direct feat is really stretching it.
 
I already explaneid why the 5-A feats don't really aply to most of the end bosses.

I already explaneid why the nuke comparassion is invalid, DDM, already explained, the tsar bomb is built to be the strongest unlike a aircraft, Eggman's mechs and the FEB were both built to be the strongest, also in real life we can only acheive that power with nuclear weapons because of chemical reactions, so that's why we don't use them in the airships, meanwhile the FEB isn't a special weapon that can only reach that power with a special reaction, the only diference is that Eggman used it on the stars instead of Super Sonic, as far as we know the FEB was built the same way with the same materials as the other machines, unlike nuclear bombs who only reach that power with chemical reaction, a better comparassion is the FEB being the cannon of the ship while the mechs are the ships themselfs.

The mechs are tier 2 via reality warping, not pure strengh unlike the FEB, you really can't scale durability and attack potence to reality warping, the Eclipse Cannon never fired with all emeralds so we don't know it's full potention, and I already explaneid why every emerald user would be above the Eclipse Cannon, also Ultimate Gemerl and Overlord were also built to be the strongest, and firing the FEB or a weapon just as strong as it wouldn't defeat them, Eggman says as if any invention that he could built couldn't beat them at all, not that he couldn't use them because of coletaral damage, in Lost World he didn't care that most of the planet had it's energy removed and in Forces he was going to reduce it to ashes,he doesn't necessary have to destroy everything, Ap is diferent from destructive potention.

Advance 3 takes place after Battle so Eggman would have acess to It, comparing a nuke or reality warping weapons isn't valid, and 5-A isn't really consistant, scaling Eggman's weapons to a feat that one of them did is better than scaling it to something weaker than It

They are compared directely when Eggman doesn't believe that any weapon can beat them, and hitting them with the FEB probaly won't destroy the Earth since it would be focused on them, Eggman doesn't care about coletaral damage.

I still believe that they should be possible 4-A as well as the super forms, scaling everyone to a feat of a weakened Super Sonic is not that good

So possibly 4-A for all super forms( which would include Gemerl since he used the emeralds) and maybe Overlord since he copyed Chaos Energy

And Super Sonic beat the Final Hazard who was using the Eclipse Cannon, he can even fire lasers from it and Shadow says that he's using the emeralds power, so Sonic scales to the Cannon, most of the 5-A feats are from peole weaker than Sonic himself
 
The Nuke comparison is very valid, and that's exactly what Final Egg Blaster is, it's a satellite laser. We also have Satellite lasers which much higher attack potency than their own durability which is exactly the case here. The FEB can only reach 4-A levels through massive amounts of charging and even then. After it was first used, it only had enough energy left to destroy a single planet.

The Tier 2 mechs in Sonic don't apply here. And actually plenty of characters can scale striking strength and durability from reality warping; there just needs to be case by case for it. Anyway, we aren't talking about the Tier 2 characters from Sonic, so they shouldn't be discussed here. Unless you're trying to say they should be glass cannons as well. FEB is a Satellite weapon and plenty of Satellite weapons in fiction are glass cannons. It's more like a ship that carries a nuclear weapon and/or launches nuclear weapons that are far more potent than the ships themselves.

Eggman also believes that even planetary stuff is a massive threat and often considers himself dependant on collecting the Chaos Emeralds just to perform planet wide levels of feats. So I wouldn't consider Eggman's guess work reliable sources rather than actual demonstrated showings of power. Or even better yet, Eggman thought a ordinary handgun was deadly enough to kill Amy Rose.

Again, 5-A is very consistent. Dark Gaia has his 5-A feat, many end game bosses throughout the series require prep time and/or power source to "Destroy the Planet". Eclipse Cannon, even if "Piercing the stars" was taken literally would still only be a Tier 5 feat. Said feat also would require all 7 Chaos Emeralds to perform anyway. But I still stand that Piercing the stars is more figurative and that "Hoshi" would mean planet in this context.

FEB can't be focused, once fired; it expands from the fired spot and destroys everything within the blast. It's not the same as Ki Manipulation, or Superman's Heat Vision. It's just a big laser with a giant omnidirectional blast. It's in the same boat as our satellite lasers or explosives that once it goes off, it can't be stopped. It's not assumed one could throw a hand grenade at a spider to save a butterfly; as both the spider and the butterfly would be combusted. The same thing would happen if Eggman aimed FEB at anything within our Solar System about it expanding to interstellar explosions.

Dark Gaia may have fought a weakened Super Sonic, but it's still his best feat, as well as Chaos Cannon being 5-A with Dark Gaia absorbing the Negative energy of the Chaos Emeralds equal to that Chaos Cannon to become Perfect. And yes, I listed multiple High 6-A to 5-B to 5-A feats done between Chaos, Black Doom, Dark Gaia, ect. It's all consistent. 4-A is just practically nonexistent and exclusive to one random weapon that was never used again.

I need to get some sleep, but still agree with not even using FEB for scaling.
 
The nuke comparassion isn't valid, a nuke can only reach those levels of power via chemical reactions, unlike the FEB, so the weapons that Eggman built should have similar Ap as It, of Eggman thought that no invention could beat them then that implies that they can survive the FEB. The FEB never ran out of energy, that's pure unfouded headcanon, it's never said nor implied at all, Emerl simply focused it on Earth showing that it can focus on one thing, the FEB expading when it hits something is never implied, it destroyed the stars because Eggman aimed at it, just like Emerl aimed it at Earth

I wasn't talking about the tier 2 mechs, I was talking about your comparassion, the machines from those othar franchises reach those levels of power via reality warping which isn't the same as Ap or durability, diferent from the FEB, Eggman would use weapons in those mechs as strong as the FEB.

Most of Eggman's machines can already destroy the planet thanks to the 5-B upgrade, he doesn't need help to destroy the planet, he doesn't need the emeralds, a single one is already planetary.

The FEB as well as many Eggman's machines are focused, Ap is diferent from destructive potention, you are using a AoE fallacy.

Dark Gaia never absorved the energy of the emeralds, that's pure unfouded headcanon, the Chaos Energy Cannon simply awakened him, then Eggman simply brought him togheter after he split apart. There's no more high-6-A feats, and Black Doom never wanted to destroy the planet, the only tier 5 feats are Dark Gaia, the Chaos bomb who doesn't scales to the Final Hazard, and that's only 5-B which base forms characters already are, Chaos is weaker than Sonic and his statment can mean many things.

Assuming that the FEB is a one time invention that Eggman never used against Sonic creates more plot-holes and inconsistances in the franchise than assuming that Eggman's top tier machines are as strong as It, scaling them to a feat that Eggman did is better than a feat specificaly weaker than Sonic

It should at least be possible 4-A, that's what most people agree including Cal and Dark who are both adims, there's enough proof for at least this, we are gonna be arguing forever at this point

5-A isn't more valid, it's one feat that simply serevd to awaken Dark Gaia, that was Dark Gaia at his weakest, also Sonic didn't even want to transform into his super form to fight regular Dark Gaia, unlike his Perfect form, he also was weakened, the other statments already aply to the base forms thanks to the 5-B upgrade so aplying It to the super forms something that they already can do in base is pretty redudant
 
Again, Final Egg Blaster is nothing but pure destruction with no precision. It's exactly the same thing as the nuke comparison. And once again, there is 0 proof that any other weapon has even remotely close AP to the FEB. It is pure unfounded headcanon to assume such so don't be a hypocrite. Again characters like Goku have the ability to harness universe busting levels of power and focus it on one target due to his Ki Control. And other characters like Superman can also do similar feats with Heat Vision and Final Fantasy Characters use Magic to control their feats. FEB does not even remotely have this ability; it either destroys or doesn't shoot.

Again, that doesn't disprove that FEB is a glass cannon. It's more like the Purifiers from Star Craft being Low 5-B cannons that don't scale to anyone's durability. And the Tier 2 stuff I mentioned aren't mechs, they're reality warping devises but still off topic. The Phineus example has galaxy wide forcefield, but the construct generating the forcefield doesn't have Galaxy level durability. Nor do anything any of those characters built. Still we don't always scale striking strength end durability of a robot to a superlaser that's far above everything ever shown during this period.

I'm aware of the 5-B upgrades, but that's only for Attack Potency, not Destructive Capacity for most of the feats. No one actually directly scales from the Black hole stuff, and Eggrobo is the only one that's legit planetary destruction, but Emerl is literally he needed Chaos Emeralds to destroy the planet. And the fact that Eclipse Cannon was still around when Gerald first stated that and that Emerl's method of destroying the planet was using the FEB contradicts any indication that he does it himself.

There's still far too many assumptions being thrown around here. Not every Eggman invention has Ki Control or precision strikes, because FEB is clearly incapable of it. Death Egg, which is much larger than anything Eggman ever constructed and should inherently be the most durable thing he ever constructed was destroyed by attacks far less than 4-A.

None of the Chaos Emerald users have any feats that are 4-A, or even feats higher than 5-A at the time. Metal Overlord is chronologically before Battle, and Eggman apparently believed he constructed something stronger than the Chaos Emeralds. The same thing has no feats to back up the claim and was ultimately defeated by the Super Hedgehogs with high difficulty. Advance 3 is after Battle for sure due to Gemerl's appearance, but he still has 0 4-A feats because Super Sonic also has 0 4-A feats, and was less challenging than Overlord.

I never said Perfect Chaos was High 6-A, I simply said his feat was. And yes, there are still multiple High 6-A feats even if they aren't used anymore. But still, even Super forms have numerous 5-B statements and at least one 5-A feat. The only thing that ruins plot holes would be to make everyone 4-A based on one weapon that isn't even consistent and is arguably much stronger than the Chaos Emeralds themselves to begin with.

Honestly, Tier 5 is the absolute most consistent showing for any of the Super forms and other End Game bosses because the most common plot in the Sonic series is Eggman wanting all 7 Emeralds to he can conquer Earth. Super Sonic has consistently fought foes stated to be planetary threats; Perfect Chaos, Dark Gaia, Final Hazard, ect. And actually, it's said that Dark Gaia absorbing the Chaos Emeralds is what ultimately made him into Dark Gaia in the Wii version of Unleashed at least. And it was even said that he once had the perfect form millions of years ago and he actually did do the 5-A feat numerous times during his battles with Light Gaia.

It was just that one time that Eggman did it with the Chaos Cannon, which in turn caused the Chaos Emeralds to become lifeless rocks. And the feat was still 5-A. And it even says he feeds of the negative energy being generated which causes his awakening. So Dark Gaia is consistently 5-A however you look at it. It's the entire plot of Unleashed is that he does it multiple times during his backstory and Chaos Energy Cannon basically just does the same thing once awakening him prematurely, but was able to reach his own self due to absorbing the negative energy of the cannon.

Still against 4-A, Metal Overlord was apparently before FEB, Gemerl has no Tier 4 feats or statements about being superior to FEB. Death Egg which is arguably more durable than Overlord due to it's great size and being made of the same metal. Like comparing a Tie Fighter to the Death Star, being destroyed by stuff less than Tier 4 consistently, shows that Tier 4 is out of the question.

In order for 4-A to be accepted, there needs to be at least one of the following:

  • Someone has to tank the FEB's blast at point blank range.
  • Someone needs a statement about performing a 4-A feat directly
  • Someone needs their own Multi-Solar System durability feat.
  • Someone or something needs a very specific statement about having more firepower than the FEB, not just a general/hyperbolic "Latest and most powerful creation" or "Strongest Robot".
And none of those exist. And even Eggman contradicts himself far too often and can often be described as "So Smart that he's dumb". And he's about as smart as Jeffy the Puppet at this point; they both have an IQ of 300 is the comparison. One day, he's gathering Chaos Emeralds just to do planetary stuff, and the next day he builds something he considers stronger than the Chaos Emeralds from the ground up. That only happened twice, but it shows why statements in the Sonic franchise really can't be trusted without direct feats.

Cal simply said he was fine with the proposal, he never said he agreed. And Dark649 also said he was unsure. I'm the one being more elaborate and complex, and Matt is probably more tired of the discussion than anyone and he and Ever have always had great sense of judgements.
 
Dragon.

You're completely ignoring our points.

The nuke comparison is false because the Final Egg Blaster isn't from a chemical reaction but pure technology.

In case you didn't know, which I'm starting to think is a real possibility, Nuclear Weapons are only possible by splitting atoms. This creates a massive amount of heat which is impossible for anything to compare to without doing the same in the real world. Comparing the Final Egg Blaster to a nuke is like comparing a cannon with a nuke. It's simply not a valid comparison. The Final Egg Blaster is made with the same technology, the same limitations as everything else Eggman has ever made.

You're outnumbered and outgunned. If even Cal agrees with a Sonic buff, then maybe you should consider that you're doing the very stonewalling that you accuse us of.
 
"I'm aware of the 5-B upgrades, but that's only for Attack Potency, not Destructive Capacity for most of the feats. No one actually directly scales from the Black hole stuff, and Eggrobo is the only one that's legit planetary destruction, but Emerl is literally he needed Chaos Emeralds to destroy the planet. And the fact that Eclipse Cannon was still around when Gerald first stated that and that Emerl's method of destroying the planet was using the FEB contradicts any indication that he does it himself."

Are you really going to still argue this when this was refuted in the 5-B upgrade thread?
 
Cannons and Satellite lasers are still in the same boat as Nukes. It's nothing but giant explosions and no spirit energy or magic. Cal hasn't really agreed much less that he's giving up and is "too nice" to continue debating. My Hero also said she never agreed with 4-A and everyone else said 4-A would only be okay for Overlord, Ultimate Gemerl, and some of the good guys.

Outnumbered =/= Outmatched and God Powers > Guns. I never directly accused you guys of stonewalling to the same extent being thrown at me.

@Shadow, I never refuted Base Sonic being 5-B only some of the details here and there and some of the reasonings for it. I also could say a bunch of other things because I have more details and yet another comparison to another verse, but I'd rather not get into it. But trust me, I know when a verse is getting special treatment compared to other verses when I see one.
 
"God Powers > Guns"

General Medeus, you are a bold one. I'm speaking of other threads when I say you accuse us of stonewalling.

The FEB is a satilite cannon that could easily be used in other contexts. So if I put a gun in space all of a sudden guns on earth can't scale to it?
 
Holy shit that wall!

The FEB can focus on one target, many weapons created by Eggman can do the same, it literaly was going to destroy the Earth and only that, it didn't lose power, my point is that the FEB could simply destroy them without destroying the earth

The FEB durability isn't important, what's important is If those machines have the same Ap as it, as if they are implied that a machine like that wouldn't have destroyed them.

The FEB is never implied to be stronger than the emeralds, the opposite is true, especialy since he built it to make Emerl join him which he had them, if the FEB was stronger than him he would use it against Sonic like he did with the Eclipse Cannon, that's where the plot holes comes from, we are scaling Sonic to feats that he can peform on base and one feat that's weaker than him that simply awakened Dark Gaia, and I played the Wii version of Unleashed in the past and it's never implied that he absorved the emerald.

The emeralds becoming lifeless rocks happens everytime negative energy is used, it happened with Chaos who is weaker than Super Sonic, and the Final Hazard was using the energy of the Eclipse Cannon, and he wasn't that much of a threat to Sonic

Eggman didn't think that Overlord was stronger than the emeralds, but that only they could beat him but it would be dificult, taking a miracle, which is true in a way, and Boss dificult is diferent from canon power levels, or else the Carnival Zone barrel os the strongest character in the franchise

Dark Gaia doesn't use the emeralds, he's refering to darkness in general, of people, animals, etc. It's the concept of It, and Dark Gaia fought a weakened Super Sonic, so scaling to him isn't that good, and Dark Gaia reached his maturity via Eggman collecting it's split parts

Size doesn't really matter, Sonic and Co can one-shoot Death Egg in Runners which was made by Sonic Team and written by It, it isn't that strong

There's os the fourth one but it isn't that direct, that's where possibly comes from.

The FEB isn't stronger than the emeralds, he never considered more powerful.

Let's already acept possibly 4-A, both Cal and Dark agree as well as many members, this has been to draw out
 
So would those be the ones that scale to it?

I do agree with the characters that you said DDM, anymore would be pushing it
 
Also a nuke can only reach that power via a nuclear fusion, the better comparassion is a cannon and the entire ship, in real life is impossible to make technology as strong as a nuke because of atom spliting
 
FEB still requires excessive amounts of charging in order to perform of 4-A feat and it still lacks the precision. Most of Eggman's robots peak at Tier 9 as their literally just Goomba equivalent. His robots and other Mechs that can fight Sonic are capable of more precise strikes, but they most of them don't have destructive capacity.

It's implied as such because Eggman not only considers it an improvement over the Eclipse Cannon, which needed all 7 Chaos Emeralds to even perform its Tier 5 feats, but Emerl considered it stronger than the Chaos Emeralds as well. Why doesn't 7 Chaos Emeralds make him overload the same way FEB does?

The context even you used said something about Eggman having doubts that they could stop Overlord even without Chaos Emeralds. And him not using the FEB is not a plot hole because Eggman doesn't actually want to destroy the planet. Why would he do a U-turn try to stop Emerl from using it in Battle? He literally did just that when he found out Emerl was going to destroy the planet.

Durability of the FEB matters if you're going to compare him to Metal Overlord, and size does matter when it comes to two constructs made of the same metal. A Battletank made of Titanium is easily more durable than a wristwatch made of Titanium. That's the point of comparing Death Egg to Metal Sonic. One Shotting Death Egg is probably a chain reaction, but it's a glass cannon regardless. It's simple, Sega doesn't care about power scaling which is why it's best to use feats that are actually concrete or consistent instead of sheer assumptions.

Not confusing them, Cal has the same thoughts on both threads. He literally said he's just tired of Sonic Threads and also said he doesn't think Super Sonic above should be any higher than 4-C. He simply said he was fine with it, he didn't say he agree. He did agree that it would only be the good guys and Ultimate Gemerl who would scale, but the key word is "Would". Also, that statement is covered by his 2-C key and has nothing to do with his low end. But that should be removed and instead be compared to Dark Gaia as the justification for his low end 5-A.

@Smashor, that was Matt who said that. Not me.
 
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