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Consistency with a lower feat doesn't cancel out a higher teir feat. An outlier would be saying Metal Sonic can warp infinite universes
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Super Sonic 4-A Return Continued
- Thread starter Oblivion_Lightning
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Other machines had longer charge times like the ones in the Tornado levels, it doesn't make them 4-A, also when the FEB did his 4-A feat there's no charge time.
I already proved that those statments only come from weaker versions of the final bosses, Chaos only uses negative energy and the Ark statment was before the Final Hazard, the emeralds were neutralized by the Master Emerald before the fight so that statment doesn't aply to it.
You should discuss the Advance 3 in the 5-B thread, it's just that most people disagree with you and Shake made some good arguments but that's off topic in this thread
Also the Dragon Ball comparassion was that the bosses can still be 4-A and destroy only the Earth because that's only what they wanted, I was refering to Dark Gaia and Light Gaia battles only destroying the planet
I already proved that those statments only come from weaker versions of the final bosses, Chaos only uses negative energy and the Ark statment was before the Final Hazard, the emeralds were neutralized by the Master Emerald before the fight so that statment doesn't aply to it.
You should discuss the Advance 3 in the 5-B thread, it's just that most people disagree with you and Shake made some good arguments but that's off topic in this thread
Also the Dragon Ball comparassion was that the bosses can still be 4-A and destroy only the Earth because that's only what they wanted, I was refering to Dark Gaia and Light Gaia battles only destroying the planet
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It's not more consistant DDM, the 5-A mechs are only 5-A via scaling, the FEB is the only top tier machine with a feat, also Overlord statment is very direct, it says strongest, I could agree with you if it said greatest, but strongest is very clear
Also common sense would imply that Eggman would use the same power on his machines that fought Super Sonic, it's not necessary interaction when a weapon is stated to be stronger than the other
Also common sense would imply that Eggman would use the same power on his machines that fought Super Sonic, it's not necessary interaction when a weapon is stated to be stronger than the other
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I will be busy because of a test so I probaly won't be able to reply for about 4 days consistanly, I will still be able to reply sometimes so it's better that we use likely 4-A
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Agreed "likely" is honestly the best middle ground.As before hand it was just 4-A then it got removed and now it would make the most sense to have it be "at least 4-A" for new reasons
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The difference is that the Tornado doesn't have a single 4-A feat. And actually, he was charging it all the way from the beginning of the game till the time it did get activated.
"Statements came from weaker versions of Final Bosses", Final Hazard was the strongest version of Biolizard. Master Emerald deactivated the Chaos Emeralds to stop it from destroying the planet, but then Biolizard merged with the Eclipse Cannon to become a Chaos Bomb. Perfect's High 6-A statement actually came from Perfect Chaos; his other forms lack a single feat exceeding City level. Dark Gaia's planet busting statement was regering to Devil Doom using all 7 Chaos Emeralds and being in possession of Black Comet rather than his own power. And even tried using Eclipse Cannon in one route. And most of those other Mechs are just flat out featless and where considered well below FEB and Metal Overlord. If anything, some of those other mechs shouldn't even scale from Super Sonic. Dark Gaia's is the only one debatable, but so far; each and every example of a planetary feat was literally something that came from the boss being at their strongest or using a super weapon rather than their own power. And I know stuff lower than that is for the other thread, but even bosses such as Ifrit had their High 6-A statements come from their strongest versions, when the version Sonic fought was way weaker.
Also, trust me. I know a big jump when I see one even even tamer, more concrete examples got passed as outliers. Look at the Battletoads upgrade thread for example. Not was the upgrade proposal much smaller, but the details were also more concrete. Ratship has a 5-A feat that easily would scale to durability, given it literally smashed through the moon by ramming. Different then a glass cannon satellite laser. And the same ship got blowed up by Rat Pods which can also somewhat take hits from Ratship, and those same Ratpods have been smashed by the Battletoads. And a Secondary feat was Robo-Manus having the durability to survive a crash from Rat Missile into the Earth and blow it up; same Rat Missile having more energy output than the Ship's ramming strength aka 5-A. But even that was passed as too vague. And the next complaint was their next best feats that are extremely casual being calc'd at High 7-A+.
Not only is the Sonic example a bigger jump; Final Egg Blaster's feat is 2.7839519*10^23 times bigger than Dark Gaia's feat where as Ratship's ramming strength is only 2.4220374*10^15 times stronger than Robo-Manus getting launched at Relativistic speeds with a punch. The Battletoads have showings of destroying ships with said Tier and defeated someone with the durability to survive the detonation of a planet busting missile get passed as "Outliers" by Kepekley. Not only does Final Egg Blaster have way more indications to be an outlier, it also has literally nothing but one vague statement and was never used for combat. And it's still being tried to scale half the verse from it and even a bunch of characters weaker than Dark Gaia or Metal Overlord; the latter being the only one that has the statement and everyone else backwards scales.
"Statements came from weaker versions of Final Bosses", Final Hazard was the strongest version of Biolizard. Master Emerald deactivated the Chaos Emeralds to stop it from destroying the planet, but then Biolizard merged with the Eclipse Cannon to become a Chaos Bomb. Perfect's High 6-A statement actually came from Perfect Chaos; his other forms lack a single feat exceeding City level. Dark Gaia's planet busting statement was regering to Devil Doom using all 7 Chaos Emeralds and being in possession of Black Comet rather than his own power. And even tried using Eclipse Cannon in one route. And most of those other Mechs are just flat out featless and where considered well below FEB and Metal Overlord. If anything, some of those other mechs shouldn't even scale from Super Sonic. Dark Gaia's is the only one debatable, but so far; each and every example of a planetary feat was literally something that came from the boss being at their strongest or using a super weapon rather than their own power. And I know stuff lower than that is for the other thread, but even bosses such as Ifrit had their High 6-A statements come from their strongest versions, when the version Sonic fought was way weaker.
Also, trust me. I know a big jump when I see one even even tamer, more concrete examples got passed as outliers. Look at the Battletoads upgrade thread for example. Not was the upgrade proposal much smaller, but the details were also more concrete. Ratship has a 5-A feat that easily would scale to durability, given it literally smashed through the moon by ramming. Different then a glass cannon satellite laser. And the same ship got blowed up by Rat Pods which can also somewhat take hits from Ratship, and those same Ratpods have been smashed by the Battletoads. And a Secondary feat was Robo-Manus having the durability to survive a crash from Rat Missile into the Earth and blow it up; same Rat Missile having more energy output than the Ship's ramming strength aka 5-A. But even that was passed as too vague. And the next complaint was their next best feats that are extremely casual being calc'd at High 7-A+.
Not only is the Sonic example a bigger jump; Final Egg Blaster's feat is 2.7839519*10^23 times bigger than Dark Gaia's feat where as Ratship's ramming strength is only 2.4220374*10^15 times stronger than Robo-Manus getting launched at Relativistic speeds with a punch. The Battletoads have showings of destroying ships with said Tier and defeated someone with the durability to survive the detonation of a planet busting missile get passed as "Outliers" by Kepekley. Not only does Final Egg Blaster have way more indications to be an outlier, it also has literally nothing but one vague statement and was never used for combat. And it's still being tried to scale half the verse from it and even a bunch of characters weaker than Dark Gaia or Metal Overlord; the latter being the only one that has the statement and everyone else backwards scales.
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Eggman didn't charge the FEB from the beggining of the game, he built it from the beggining of the game, it's diferent, the Tornado comparassion was to prove that charge times don't matter.
The Chaos bomb statment came from the emeralds, not from the Final Hazard, that's why that statment doesn't count for him because the emeralds were neutralized, Perfect Chaos scales from the 5-A feat of the chaos cannon from Unleashed due to using negative energy, and we weren't planning to upgrade him to 4-A, Black Doom never wanted to destroy the planet, he wanted to preserve humanity as food for his race, and those mechs should be 4-A via Eggman using the same power as the FEB.
The problem with that comparassion is that the Battletoads have feats unlike the mechs that fought Super Sonic, the FEB is the only top tier machine that has one, also we already discussed that the 5-A feat is not from Dark Gaia but from the negative energy.
Since your main problem now is everyone scaling I propose that only the super forms and Perfect Dark Gaia, Overlord and Ultimate Gemerl should have a 4-A or possible 4-A key, the rest remain like what they are, that's a good compromise for both sides
The Chaos bomb statment came from the emeralds, not from the Final Hazard, that's why that statment doesn't count for him because the emeralds were neutralized, Perfect Chaos scales from the 5-A feat of the chaos cannon from Unleashed due to using negative energy, and we weren't planning to upgrade him to 4-A, Black Doom never wanted to destroy the planet, he wanted to preserve humanity as food for his race, and those mechs should be 4-A via Eggman using the same power as the FEB.
The problem with that comparassion is that the Battletoads have feats unlike the mechs that fought Super Sonic, the FEB is the only top tier machine that has one, also we already discussed that the 5-A feat is not from Dark Gaia but from the negative energy.
Since your main problem now is everyone scaling I propose that only the super forms and Perfect Dark Gaia, Overlord and Ultimate Gemerl should have a 4-A or possible 4-A key, the rest remain like what they are, that's a good compromise for both sides
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Having feats sounds like more of a reason to support and upgrade, not the opposite. Especially if the low end feats literally come from casual movement speed feats. Also a lot of mechs technically do have feats, they're just Tier 9 or 8 and unimpressive. The Tier 7 feats in Battletoads are in the same boat as all the Tier 9 stuff in Sonic. Plus, they actually have two direct actual showings of being comparable to the Tier 5 technology whereas Sonic has only one statement and no showings.
I'd like to wait for Matt to get a chance to comment. But I will say that at best, At least 5-A, possibly 4-A would be the best upgrade for Metal Overlord, Ultimate Gemerl, and Perfect Dark Gaia, but only those three if that happens. I still think they should just be 5-A, but we still need more staff input before approving and having a 4-A mid end squeezed seems unnecessary for Super Hedgehogs even if 4-A gets accepted. 5-A to 2-C just covers everything. Perfect Chaos, and some of the weaker end game bosses that fight Super Sonic should just be 5-A yes.
I'd like to wait for Matt to get a chance to comment. But I will say that at best, At least 5-A, possibly 4-A would be the best upgrade for Metal Overlord, Ultimate Gemerl, and Perfect Dark Gaia, but only those three if that happens. I still think they should just be 5-A, but we still need more staff input before approving and having a 4-A mid end squeezed seems unnecessary for Super Hedgehogs even if 4-A gets accepted. 5-A to 2-C just covers everything. Perfect Chaos, and some of the weaker end game bosses that fight Super Sonic should just be 5-A yes.
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I understand both sides and respect DDM for looking at our view points and at least considering the upgrade as possible.Anyway I agree that "possibly" is the best way to go
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True, but Tails and Knuckles super forms should also have 4-A via fighting Overlord.
The mid-end would be necessary for when Super Sonic fought those bosses, a key from those feats
And the final bosses actualy don't have any feats except fighting Super Sonic, they only fly around in space, so Eggman would use his strongest technology on them, especialy since they have the same amount of prep time, it would be extreme PIS for Eggman not to use that power on the mechs that fought Super Sonic, that's why I think they should be 4-A, but if only Overlord , Dark Gaia and Ultimate Gemerl get it then I already would be pleased
The mid-end would be necessary for when Super Sonic fought those bosses, a key from those feats
And the final bosses actualy don't have any feats except fighting Super Sonic, they only fly around in space, so Eggman would use his strongest technology on them, especialy since they have the same amount of prep time, it would be extreme PIS for Eggman not to use that power on the mechs that fought Super Sonic, that's why I think they should be 4-A, but if only Overlord , Dark Gaia and Ultimate Gemerl get it then I already would be pleased
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Sorry bout thatMYHERO said:
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from what I'm getting you don't accept feats because they just have statements and no feats when the statement itself is evidence the feat was gonna happen and it did happen
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We do except feats, but statements alone aren't feats. And we only except feats if they're specific or elaborate enough. And we don't just give one random statement higher if there's literally other statements in the same boat.
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I am 100% with Medeus. 4-A Sonic in itself is ridiculously outlierish for the power output of the Emeralds and making that Sonic's low-end is absurd.
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That's why we are proposing a likely 4-A Key, Sonic will still keep 5-A, but let's finish this after the 5-B thread
And I already explaneid why it isn't a outlier, it's the only quantificable feat of the top tier machines
And I already explaneid why it isn't a outlier, it's the only quantificable feat of the top tier machines
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The statments are diferent DDM, one is from Sega while other is a exagerated comment from a character that does that to every invention on his side, it's a completely diferent circumstanceDarkDragonMedeus said:
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"And I already explaneid why it isn't a outlier, it's the only quantificable feat of the top tier machines"
Even I, the Sonic God, got a lot to say on the matter too.
Even I, the Sonic God, got a lot to say on the matter too.
ShakeResounding
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>4-A Sonic is an outlierMatthew Schroeder said:
>Tier 2 Sonic exists
Also, nobody's arguing to make it the low-end. Unless you've missed the majority of the first thread and all of the second, everybody wants 5-A to stay as the low end. You need to read what's going on in these threads instead of dropping by with a snide comment then leaving, only to make us wait when somebody wants to inevitably wait on your opinion again.
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I mean, tbf, a lot of us think tier 2 Sonic was a mistake... We're the only major debating site that considers him that level and even then half of our staff don't really like it...
ShakeResounding
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Half of the staff not liking it doesn't matter, with all due respect to all of you beautiful people.
If Super Sonic can defeat Tier 2 threats throughout several installments in his series, then I don't really understand the big fuss over having him be Tier 2. Just look at Solaris.
Cue downgrade thread of Super Sonic only being 5-A at max
If Super Sonic can defeat Tier 2 threats throughout several installments in his series, then I don't really understand the big fuss over having him be Tier 2. Just look at Solaris.
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I think it's appropiate. I mean you guys really think Sonic is weaker than what y'all have him currently? Lol
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@Cal Bro, I don't care if other debating sites don't have tier 2 Sonic. Let them be inaccurate, we can do our own research on characters.
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If you guys really want 5-A to remain the lowest of Emerald's power, then I don't even think 4-A should be listed, as VAriable Tier would already imply that there's a mid-end between 5-A and 2-C.
If the Emeralds can really "make someone as strong as they need", then it's nonsensical to assume that they can make him only either Tier 5 or Tier 2.
And besides, you guys are forgetting that Eggman said that Metal Overlord didn't need the Emeralds before witnessing any Tier 2 feat.
If the Emeralds can really "make someone as strong as they need", then it's nonsensical to assume that they can make him only either Tier 5 or Tier 2.
And besides, you guys are forgetting that Eggman said that Metal Overlord didn't need the Emeralds before witnessing any Tier 2 feat.
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Who's to say they're the inaccurate ones. I mean, Sonic's one of the few franchises I've yet to see a single outlier for. Sure, people call it all the time but not a single feat is considers one.
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4-A is because Eggman thought it was impossible for him to defeat Overlord even though he can make 4-A tech, and Overlord being listed as Eggman's strongest invention, making him superior to the FEB, DMB1
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I have been on multiple battleboading websites and plenty of people believe in tier 2 Super Sonic, way more than 3-C Mario or 2-C Castlevania, it's not a unpopular opinionThe real cal howard said:
This video on in favor of tier 2 Sonic and it has over 100k views:https://youtu.be/GLE1shXz1Fw
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@Cal Base cast defeating Void.
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Yeah,teir 2 Sonic isn't going anywhere
I think likely 4-A is the best compromise as we cannot ignore offical statements
I think likely 4-A is the best compromise as we cannot ignore offical statements
ShakeResounding
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I missed that.
There's an official statement from Sega? What is it?
There's an official statement from Sega? What is it?
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That Metal Overlord is Eggman's most powerful "creation"
Bar the Teir 2 machines that Eggman needed help controlling or building
Bar the Teir 2 machines that Eggman needed help controlling or building
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Tbh Maginary world should make Solaris 2-B along with Supersonic, just my opinion tho, Supersonic definitly shouldn't be 4-A tho.
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Super Sonic varies here, so 4-A would still be one of his keys scaling to the Eggman inventions that should be as strong or even stronger than the FEB
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We discussed 2-B Sonic before and was already concluded due to lack of evidenceMeandthebois100 said:
Like Theuser said Super Sonic has varying teir's of power
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Which was BS but it is what it is.
ShakeResounding
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Oh... Sweet.Oblivion Lightning said:
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https://share.icloud.com/photos/05HEThCzHE26GuUE6Gcdzee1w
There's also one in the Generations Manual citing him as Eggman's most powerful creation but right now I don't have access to it right now
There's also one in the Generations Manual citing him as Eggman's most powerful creation but right now I don't have access to it right now
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Does the possibility of 4-A being an outlier when the supposedly stronger creations fail to have feats anywhere on that level cross anyone's mind?
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First of all, that scan is for Metal Sonic in general, not just his Metal Overlord form. Also it only says "Strongest Robot", it never said strongest creation. And here's the thing, Final Egg Blaster is not a robot, it's a super satellite laser. So if it only says strongest robot, then that does not include comparisons to the FEB. So that basically severs any reason to compare him to FEB.
The strongest robot invented by Dr Eggman in order to defeat Sonic. That's word for word all it says. It never says most powerful creation and simply says strongest Robot. And I highly doubt Generations would be reliable given Metal Sonic being the strongest is heavily contradicted.
The strongest robot invented by Dr Eggman in order to defeat Sonic. That's word for word all it says. It never says most powerful creation and simply says strongest Robot. And I highly doubt Generations would be reliable given Metal Sonic being the strongest is heavily contradicted.
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