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Super Sonic 4-A Return Continued

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@DDM I do agree with you there.

If there is an official source citing Overlord as Eggman's most powerful creation overall, then it'll be a different case.
 
Forgive me but,I honestly can't expend anymore effort towards this debate topic as I really need to focus on writing my book and just don't have the time or resources to access the quote so if you close this be my guest due to lack of proof of course unless someone else wants to find the statement.All I known is that it exists.Sorry for the inconvenience
 
Eggman would still use similar technology on his most powerful creations that fought Super Sonic and the fact that Eggman thought that it was impossible to beat Overlord and Ultimate Gemerl without the emeralds even though he can make 4-A technology, I already explaneid why it isn't a outlier, the other mechs don't have any anti-feats, nor quantificable feats except fighting Super Sonic, which Eggman would use his strongest tecnology.

Let's wait for Oblivion to find the scan,I trust him that it exists, and to finish the 5-B thread first but nothing in Generations contradicts the statment, the Time Eater is a alien that Eggman controlled
 
doesn't maginaryworld count as an extra multiverse to sonic due to having dreams which become a reality in this so called fourth dimension thr worlds already have a 4D space or at least a space tiem contiuum so this can be counted for Solaris which we can argue for infinite being stronger then
 
@TheUser789 That would still be the exact same thing as saying Sukhoi Su-57 is City level+ because it was built by the Russias and had far more time and research than the Tsar Bomba. But still, that source simply said strongest Robot, which would make him stronger than the likes of E-123 Omega, but no comparisons to the FEB. And in Generations, Metal Overlord doesn't even appear, and Metal Sonic was defeated by Classic Sonic; a Low 6-B character. That's where the contradiction of being "The Strongest Creation" comes from.

We typically avoid using the word "Anti-Feats" on this site due to not many people knowing what it actually means. However, they actually do have what's considered the actual definition of "Anti-Feat." They all lost and were destroyed by Super Sonic, that's what Anti-Feat means is a failure to do something. Just like how Feat simply means an accomplishment regardless if its a minor that took a lot of effort or major one done casually, ect. There's a big difference between low-end feat and Anti-feat.

Anyway, we already explained numerous times that Eggman literally does consistently need all 7 Chaos Emeralds just to perform feats that are Tier 5 or above; meaning it's super inconsistent for him to make one random 4-A super weapon. And said 4-A super weapon has not once ever been compared to anyone and no one has ever tanked it at all period. Anyway, Oblivion Lightning said he doesn't plan on continuing, so we'll have to wrap this up without him.
 
It's diferent because Eggman built those machines to be the strongest, is like saying that mechas in anime to fight monsters are weaker than their other machines, why would they use the mechas when they can use a much more powerful machines? Your comparassion isn't good because those two machines had completely diferent purposes, unlike the FEB and the mechs that fought Super Sonic, they have the same purpose of being the strongest

And Metal lost to classic because it was classic Metal, anyway Oblivion probaly has another statment and the one that he linked wasn't from Generations, it was from a other game

Losing to Super Sonic isn't a anti-feat because if Super Sonic was 4-A they would be as well, a anti-feat would be they being to destroy a planet for example, Super Sonic is only planetary via scaling to vague statments or feats from the negative energy which are inferior to him.

And I already explaneid why that's false, he didn't need the emeralds to make tier 5 feats

Let's finish the 5-B thread first otherwise it would be just the two of us arguing forever, at least after the 5-B thread is over more people can join in

Anyway I still believe that they should be at least likely 4-A for Eggman believing that nothing outside of the emeralds could beat Overlord or Ultimate Gemerl, and the fact that he would use his strongest tecnology on the mechs that fought Super Sonic
 
Strongest Robots, that don't really have any feats exceeding Tier 5. And by Mechs in Anime, Gurren Lagann for example actually has their own feats to make them such levels. Dark Gaia has his 5-A feat, Perfect Chaos has his High 6-A feat, and there's plenty of weapons that are stated to "Have enough power to destroy planets" which common plot points for multiple Sonic games is Eggman needing all 7 Chaos Emeralds to power them. This includes Death Egg for multiple of the older Sonic Games.

Eggman having doubts that even the Chaos Emeralds doesn't mean much if the Chaos Emeralds have yet to even perform a feat close to 4-A at the time. This was still 2003 which the first Tier 2 feat didn't happen till 2005. FEB has destructive capabilities not even Eggman could fully control. There's also no proof that any of these characters could survive FEB at point blank range. And maybe FEB could kill Metal Overlord, but he never could use it without destroying himself or the planet as well.
 
The point is that Eggman would use his strongest tecnology on them, making the comparassion invalid, it wasn't Dark Gaia who did the 5-A feat, we discussed this before, it was the negative energy of the emeralds, Chaos also uses negative energy which is weaker than positive energy, the Death Egg only needed the emeralds in the classic games, he doesn't need anymore as proven in Forces and Battle.

Eggman thought that it was impossible to beat him without the emeralds, the way he said it was like nothing outside of the emeralds could beat him, if Overlord was weaker than Eggman's strongest invention than Eggman would probaly say something diferent instead of wanting to have the emeralds with him, like wanting Sonic and Co to distract Overlord while he builts a machine
 
If Metal Overlord was stronger than the Final Egg Blaster, then Eggman wouldn't even need to look for Chaos Emeralds so often if he can built such a powerful robot that does exactly one he says to do his bidding. That would give the impression he could mass produce mechs with 4-A durability which would make conquering the world too easy. The Final Egg Blaster is once again something far too powerful for Eggman to even remotely control and even weaker Tier 5 weapons basically the same issue. Making it extremely objectionable for any of Eggman's robots not powered by Chaos Emeralds to be Tier 5-A, let alone 4-A.

Yes, it was done by the Chaos Cannon enhanced by all 7 Chaos Emeralds, but it's extremely consistent with Eclipse Cannon supposedly doing the same thing and Death Egg having the similar plot lines. And as well as Perfect Dark Gaia doing the same thing long ago and planning to do the same thing as his goal.
 
Metal Overlord was against Eggman, and my entire point is that he can built 4-A mechs with similar prep time than the FEB, you could use that logic to why Eggman doesn't poison Sonic's food or why he doesn't create a army of Metal Sonic or why he doesn't use his sleepling gas from Sonic Adventure, Eggman wants to prove that he is superior, that's why for example he didn't kill Sonic imediately in Forces, waiting for him to show his empire first, my point is that the final bosses of the Advance game should be as strong as the FEB because they were built to fight Super Sonic,they already are stronger than base Sonic.

The Cannon used negative energy, which is weaker than positive, the Eclipse Cannon wasn't built by Eggman and the Death Egg doesn't need emeralds anymore, Dark Gaia never reached his Perfect form before Unleashed since he can easily beat Gaia Colossus in game in that form, meanwhile he lost to Gaia Colossus, and he wanting to destroy only the Earth doesn't mean that he only has tier 5 Ap, destructive potention is diferent from Ap.

I still think we should wait for the 5-B to be over so that more people than just the two of us can discuss, especialy since we probaly aren't going to convince one another and I will be busy studing
 
That's still doesn't prove a thing. The Mechs are designed to be multi-purposed where as FEB is pure destruction. And none of them have ever remotely demonstrated Tier 4 durability feats; FEB has a 4-A attack that has no precision that's it. And Metal Overlord is featless and not even close to it an anyway outside of baseless assumptions.

Eclipse Cannon is still something Eggman considered comparable if not superior to much of his works and used the same power source as many of the other Tier 5 feats in the series. Eggman not being the one who constructed it doesn't change its Tier or threat level.

I will have to go to work soon.
 
They are designed to fight Super Sonic, you are comparing the cannon with the entire ship, Eggman would put weapons as strong as he can in them, and the FEB does have precision, that's how Eggman destroyed multiple stars, and Overlord does have feats of Eggman thinking that's impossible to beat him without the emeralds, making him superior to any invention that he can built, including the FEB, the only top tier machine that has a quantificable feat, my assumptions have plenty of proof in them, making the FEB the only 4-A machine creates more plot-holes than assuming that other mechs are on it's level

The Eclipse Cannon never fired with all seven emeralds, and it does have the pierce stars statment so we don't know what's the Eclipse Cannon at full power could do, it was never said that it could only destroy planets, and I proved that most tier 5 feats are with only one emerald or when the purpose wasn't destruction.

Good luck at work
 
Eggman didn't built the Eclipse Cannon, we are scaling the machines to the FEB, and the other machines have feats of fighting against Super Sonic, and we aren't scaling all of them to the Final Egg Blaster, only the ones that fought Super Sonic and Overlord and Ultimate Gemerl. Also plenty of Eggman machines already are 5-A, being stronger than the feats of the Eclipse Cannon and as I said the Eclipse Cannon never fired with all seven emeralds.

I understand the hesitation, that's why we suggested likely 4-A, let's first finish the 5-B thread then finish this
 
Eclipse Cannon was built by Gerald and not Eggman, but it still has feats and portrayals in the story that suggest Eclipse Cannon is above just about everything Eggman ever built at the time. And it's implied that even Sonic and the others would be inherently weaker than the Eclipse Cannon. The Eclipse Cannon powered by 6 Emeralds for example should be stronger than Chaos 6.

The Eclipse Cannon has also been an important plot point in both Adventure 2 and Shadow the Hedgehog; the Eclipse Cannon was needed to destroy the Black Comet as it's implied Super Shadow couldn't do it himself. The 6-B calc with 5 Emeralds is indeed an unnecessary low end given it should be stronger than the High 6-A cast, but the other Low 5-B calc and the Chaos Bomb from Final Hazard posing a threat should be important. If anything, Eclipse Cannon > Dark Gaia = Super Hedgehogs (low ends) = Metal Overlord = Ultimate Gemerl > Perfect Chaos = Devil Doom = Other End game bosses that fought Super Sonic.

Final Egg Blaster is also in a league of its own, was never used again, is inconsistently so far above every other thing Eggman regularly constructs with or without Chaos Emeralds; especially without it. And all the Tier 2 stuff has been outside help from Eggman Nega, or an alien.

The 5-B is ongoing yes, but this has gone on first and is more straightforward to get out of the way. That's the one that still needs more time, but 4-A for all the low end Super forms and Bosses is still far fetched.
 
I will be busy today so I won't be able to respond for a few hours, but I can say very quickly that we aren't proposing for 4-A to be the low-end, it's only gonna to be another key, a mid-end to only the super forms and some of the final bosses

Also we never seen the Eclipse Cannon at full power, and Shadow only used it to destroy the Black Comet because he wanted to fufil Gerald's wish, also the Black Comet has special shields as show in the dark mission of Final Haunt, also Tikal's prayer would put any emerald user above any weapon that uses the emeralds since their turn thoughts into power and a weapon doesn't have thought.

Also those weapons do have feats of fighting Super Sonic, Eggman would put weapons in those machines as strong as the FEB, the size nor the charge time is important, Gamma is bigger than Omega but Omega is stronger than him
 
1 The Eclipse Cannon was specifically designed to destroy the Black Comet

2 The Black Comet was a global biohazard by spreading toxic paralyzing gas

Super Shadow was perfectly capable of destroying it on his own but instead teleported it away from Earth to fulfill the Cannon's purpose & avoid collateral damage.
 
Can I just say the FEB was the death Egg and the death Egg takes to long to build, plus it's possible it's just to complicated for Eggman to build the death Egg anymore, Base sonic, stands around a violet void which can create a dwarf star level black hole and bend space and time, still below 5-B Base sonic defeats a robot, which harnesses even more violet voids, at least thousands of them, and then stands near a black hole with energy able to power the wisp who can create high 5-B black holes, Base sonic, defeats a robot, which is powered by the planets energy, and the robots destructive force is so powerful, it's forces can't be measured, still below 5-B.

How on earth do you people call this stuff an outlier
 
Guys.

5-B is for the 5-B thread. Not the 4-A thread.

All arguments for or against 5-B should be reserved for the thread originally intended for it. This is a Super Form "upgrade" thread, not a place to discuss Base characters.
 
Erazor Djiin, the guy sonic crapped on, absorbs the world of the Arabian nights which has an infintie realm and different continuites inside of it, can burn the pages itself, able to view the book itself, as an actual book which he came from, that puts him a higher dimension, Base Sonic still below 5-B Sonic craps on infinite, who's stated to be the strongest sonic Villain and was stated by Eggman to have the PHR which is mroe powerful then the master emerald, the PHR can fight classic Supersonic who's at least 4-A, Base sonic still Below 5-B.

I'm questioning the liability of this wiki, no offense to any of you.
 
@thebois Base Sonic at Tier 4 is a ridiculous outlier no matter what way you put it. While I support Tier 5 Base Sonic, I don't support Tier 4 Base Sonic.

And none taken, but this isn't the place to discuss this.
 
We aren't saying the base Eclipse Cannon is above Dark Gaia, but the fact that it was the Chaos Cannon that eventually enabled Dark Gaia to become Perfect Dark Gaia is an indicator about 5-A seemingly being for his perfect form. Eclipse Cannon with all 7 Emeralds has inherently more firepower than most other foes that were powered by all 7.

There's no proof one way or the other that Super Shadow could destroy the Black Comet without the Eclipse Cannon. But Gerald did say that the Eclipse Cannon was the "Only thing" with the power to destroy it. Shadow also most likely transferred all of his Chaos Power into the Eclipse Cannon to destroy the Black Comet; implying it was a full power Eclipse Cannon then. Why else would using the Eclipse cannon cause Shadow to revert back to his base form?

We already went over the details of Final Egg Blaster. There's 0 proof that any of Eggman's robots are even close to its power. And FEB was a new weapon on the new improved Death Egg but still. Metal Sonic/Metal Overlord's best statement is simply him being the strongest robot, not the strongest creation. In other words, no nothing really has any reason to be 4-A period other than the Final Egg Blaster.
 
You do realize how small the Black Comet is right? I seriously doubt it was too durable for Super Shadow. I'm also certain Gerald has no clue that Super Shadow even exists,so there goes that.
 
The Chaos Energy Cannon simply awakened Dark Gaia, it wasn't what made him go in it's perfect form, Dark Gaia was even weakened because it wasn't the time of awakening and Advance 3 shows that that spliting the planet does not mean awakening Dark Gaia

The Black Comet has special shields, and the Eclipse Cannon was used to fufil Gerald's wish, Shadow says that he is going to destroy the planet or conquer the universe with the emeralds even If you never go to the Ark.

And I already explaneid why the machines that Eggman built to fight Super Sonic should logicaly be as strong as the FEB, it's pure PIS that Eggman wouldn't put weapons on that tier on them, and Eggman still thought that beating Overlord was impossible without the emeralds even though he can make 4-A mechs
 
Size doesn't really have anything to do with durability. And it's not like a basic nuke would destroy it and I doubt it's a glass cannon. And I simply meant it's more powerful than all of Eggman's robots and that it's stronger than Sonic and Shadow overall. Which would in turn make a fully powered Eclipse Cannon stronger than low end Super Sonic who is equal with Perfect Dark Gaia.

It is said that Dark Gaia absorbed the Negative Energy of the Chaos Emeralds to become Dark Gaia. Which is also exactly what Chaos Cannon is.
 
Actually a basic nuke destroys the 2nd one in post SGW,it's not an impressive structure at all.Practice what you preach,Area of Effect has nothing to do with Attack Potency.
 
Tikal's prayer would imply that any user of the emeralds would be stronger than any weapon due to the emeralds transforming thoughts into power, which a weapon doesn't have.

We also don't know how strong the Eclipse Cannon is at full power, the Black Comet has special shields that Black Doom implies that humanity can't go through

Dark Gaia became full again because Eggman gathered all of it's pieces that were scarated in one place which was Eggmanland, not because of the Cannon, that simply woke him up
 
@ED, that is irrelevant. The problem is there's 0 proof for to even be 4-A. AoE is like Tier 9/8 ish, but their Attack Potencies range Tier 6/5. Tikal's prayer was before FEB even existed and we can't just compare low end Chaos Emeralds to it. It's also been contradicted from time to time and the Chaos Emeralds themselves are too inconsistent. Sometimes, even individual Chaos Emeralds have primitive Power levels, and other times 1 Emerald is enough to absolutely stomp base Sonic. Same with all 7 Chaos Emeralds, their struggling with planetary threats one day, but fighting on par with Tier 2 stuff the next.

There's still 0 reason for any of the Mechs to be 4-A when literally everything points to them being well below that. And Final Hazard's Chaos Bomb was going to be a suicide attack anyway. And it's weak mind isn't actually making every strike on par with the Eclipse Cannon's full power. It was also slightly weakened by Master Emerald and would be stronger than Sonic or Shadow; who needed to work together to defeat it anyway.
 
The turn thoughts into power thing is from 06, also can you point those inconsistances? When did one emerald stomp Sonic or had primitive power levels?

The mechs already are 5-A, nothing implies that Eggman would built them to be weaker than what he already can, also what Ed said about the Final Hazard, the Eclipse Cannon was literaly in him, the Chaos bomb wasn't in effect anymore thanks to the Master Emerald, also it never weakened the Final Hazard, nothing implies that having a weak mind makes you not use the power of the Eclipse Cannon, Gerald put his will in him to do what he wanted, and Sonic and Shadow can still fight him and take his attacks
 
Tikal said the Power of the Chaos Emeralds is based on the users' heart and situation at hand. It's for that reason that positive energy is generally stronger than negative energy. And yes, Finalhazard was going to destroy the planet, but he's still has no reason to be any higher than Tier 5.

I will have too go to work again.
 
Not really she said:"The servers are the 7 Chaos. Chaos is power... Power enriched by the heart. The controller is the one that unifies the Chaos" the power of the emeralds is enriched by the heart, machines don't have hearts, the Final Hazard was using the power of the Eclipse Cannon, he literaly merged with it, so Sonic can fight and be stronger than the Cannon.

There's still the fact that Eggman would use his strongest tecnology on the mechs that fought Super Sonic and the fact that Sonic thought that it was impossible to beat Overlord without the emeralds

Good luck at work, hopefully we can reach a compromise soon
 
Theuser789 said:
There's still the fact that Eggman would use his strongest tecnology on the mechs that fought Super Sonic and the fact that Eggma thought that it was impossible to beat Overlord without the emeralds

Good luck at work, hopefully we can reach a compromise soon
Click to expand...
^Just a small correction. Knuckles & Tails comments on how tough the Metal Overlord is during the battle; using lines like "Man he's tough!" & "Is he invincible?!" while Sonic remains confident they can win by saying lines like "It's not over yet! Let's show him what we're made of!" & "Hmph! You actually thought you can defeat me by transforming into a monster?!"
 
Yeah, but my point is that Overlord should be 4-A due to Eggman not believing that they can't beat him without the emeralds, making him stronger than the FEB

Sonic was Super Sonic on the fight
 
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